It won't be long before the government of the police state that you now live in just sends a fine of £1000 to every car holder every year. Then you can claim back an amount for what you can prove you haven't done. Of course, this won't affect the actual real law breakers, because the car probably isn't registered in their name anyway.
And you lot will just sit there and take it like you always do. A bit of a moan and a grumble on a few web sites, but just cough up anyway. After all, you've nothing to hide - have you? So prove it!!
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The cane was a good deterrent at school.... Its been downhill ever since that was banned and now you see the resulting `Human rights` and `Me First` personalities expressing themselves as they see fit, on the roads and in society in general.
Some are so sick of it that a real, punitive, Police state would be an improvement in their life quality.
For example being able to walk to the corner shop without fear of the street ruling under class.
regards
( not to be taken too seriously :)
Edited by oilrag on 12/04/2008 at 13:34
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I don't disagree with pouncing on litterers - even in deepest rural France the amount of rubbish that ends up in my garden from passing cars is incredible. What worries me is the army of snoopers there must be as well as the cameras. There's a piece today in the Telegraph about the amount councils are spending on secret patrols. Even though I don't pay British council tax it's all very unsettling.
As for tattooing 'idiot' on the miscreants, BBD, I'd do it in Bodoni ultra - stands out much more and with a bit of 'style'...
Edited by mike hannon on 12/04/2008 at 13:40
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I don't want to see a police state because you don't know when they'll come after you for something.
Dead right, though, on human rights and me first. But look at the example people are set. MP's claiming for thier food and TV licences. Hedge fund managers raking in millions for messing about with the stock market. Nonentities like Jordan getting endless promotion on TV.
Footballers sticking two fingers up at the law.
Anyway. I wouldn't want a police start but I wouldn't mind seeing coppers patrolling the street in pairs like they did when I was a kid. Astonishing how that will put a stop to lairy, me first behaviour before it gets out of control.
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I was in Marseille last week and they patrol in threes down there. They need to as well.
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Reminds me of an exchange in Custody last night.....
Prisoner (resplendent in "prison whites" with strange finger gesticulations) "you is dissing me innit"
Copper "I sure am"
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>"Is it just me or is this totally unacceptable?"
I think it's just you. It's your car, so why can't you be responsible for the behaviour of the people in it?
If, as Keep Britain Tidy suggest, 91% of litter on the streets comes from people chucking it out of cars, and that costs £450m to clean up, then I'm happy for them to do all they can to stop people chucking it out. Personally, I was brought up properly to use a bin, but if hitting people in the pocket is what's going to work (assuming it's actually possible to enforce), then I'm all for it.
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Seems an excellent idea. I had some scumbags chuck a half-eaten bag of chips out of their car and went all over mine. Disgusting behaviour. Roadsides are all strewn with litter and plastic bags. Lorry drivers use plastic pop bottles as urinals and chuck them out onto the verge.
Britain today is a mucky place with mucky people.
Its easy to blame the government, but they are responding to public behaviour.
I can remember when we had litter pickers and park keepers. Public spaces were kept tidy. It all started to go wrong in '80's with the cult of 'individualism' and devil take the hindmost. Never heard the word 'underclass' before 1980.
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It all started to go wrong in '80's with the cult of 'individualism' and devil take the hindmost. Never heard the word 'underclass' before 1980.
I don't think so BadWolf. The rot set in in the sixties with all that pseudo-freethinking stuff about the 'end of deference' and so on. Misled the intellectual proletariat (=schoolteachers) into abandoning any pretence of discipline, order or systematic education. They even abandoned spelling, grammar and proper mathematics. Of course they had the full backing of a lot of monkeys in power, desperate to seem original.
No wonder half the population consists of badly-behaved halfwits. The poor so-and-sos don't know any better, because knowing any better has been so frowned on as elitist or some such rubbish.
The term 'underclass' is an insult and offensive in the extreme. It has no sociological meaning.
Why did I think you were BadWolf? Apologies to him and to you qxman.
Edited by Lud on 12/04/2008 at 15:31
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Hopefully this will help smokers to realise that YES, a fag-end IS litter.
I doubt it though.
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I also detest litter being dropped from vehicles. I always toot anyone I catch doing it. But I feel the government should put more emphasis and resources into catching fly tippers who cause far larger rubbish problems and who seem to get away scott free at every turn. Lets crush their vehicles, fine them hundreds of pounds or imprison them, and that should have a knock on effect. Otherwise we motorists are small fry.And a cash cow.
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There is a power to seize and destroy vehicles caught fly-tipping.
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I know there is. But the authorities seem to be going for the easier option.
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There is a power to seize and destroy vehicles caught fly-tipping.
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Well PU my old mate. Try this one for size. (apologies if I've done this before co's I think I may have done).
On my way to work. See 3 ton tipper at 90 degrees to the verge, tipper up and excavation muck dropping out of the back. Whip out digi camera and get great results including drivers boat race and index number. Immediately report same to local government office, direct line to a name I know. He takes details seemingly begrudgingly and says he'll get back to me. He doesn't and 3 days later I call him, for him to say that we are unable to obtain the name of the company that hired the tipper due to the date protection act!!!!!!!
The whole of the UK has been disabled by those things that oars rest in just before they enter the water.
As for miscreants, genuine miscreants, hit them with something as we were hit. Make them understand that certain behaviour is NOT acceptable.
I will cite a classic example that applies to 'normal' folk. Employees will 'wander' from the line if not directed which is one's own fault and nobody else's. BUT the large majority of these people are so glad to be given direction and to know the parameters. It applies to us, to children, to dogs et al. It is not rocket science, but we now have nearly everybody under the age of 35 who believes in all the carp that our glorious leaders dish out. I rarely transgressed, but I NEVER transgressed in a way that would affect my fellow man, i.e. litter, fly tipping or worse. The problem now when one tries to debate any of this with yoof upwards (35) is that they think one is a silly old piece of earth (Sod)
Another glass of red please Butler.
Very best reg's to you all...............MD
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"The term 'underclass' is an insult and offensive in the extreme. It has no sociological meaning. "
It is offensive Lud I agree with that and laziness on my part for not excluding the poverty and social disenfranchisement that can result from that and from disability (in its widest context)
Instead substitute the term `street thugs`, (in my post) as good a term as any for vulnerable people being scared of going to the shops.
Regards
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Of course I wasn't complaining about you oilrag, just commenting on this word which (I agree) it is quite easy to let drop when one is in a bad mood about something. Recently did a translation of part of a French sociologist's book on the American 'superghetto' and he was very down on this word underclass which he saw as heavily ideological and used by the ruling class to oppress. I was convinced.
What we have to remember is that it is now two, nearly three generations since education and decent comportment were attacked and subverted in this country. Idots brought up by idiots brought up by idiots... doesn't sound good does it?
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R75 makes a good point above about litter bins. There aren't nearly enough and the authorities are afraid they will be filled with bombs if they put more of them.
I have to say though that there are some quite big and frequently-emptied street litter bins just down the road from where I live, and people still just drop garbage and chewing gum everywhere. If only the community plod who usually stand about near the tube station were empowered to pounce on litterers and rub their noses in it!
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"There aren't nearly enough and the authorities are afraid they will be filled with bombs if they put more of them. "
My LA says it won't put litter bins in our village because it costs too much to empty them - each bin is "means tested" if that test decrees that they would be costly to service - no bin. Typical short sightedness I'm afraid. They'll still have to clear the rubbish from where its fallen. Check the laybys out especially on the A55 in Wales filthy disgustingly dirty and smelly places....strangely no bins ! What are these idiots on ?
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Back a post or two. I'm not keen on the term "underclass" either. Bit too reminiscent of the german "untermensch" and we all know where that line of thinking ended up.
But how do you describe and deal with people who have absolutely no investment in society? No job. No education. No training. Second or third generation who haven't worked for a living. Why should they care about dropping litter? They're not paying to have it cleared up.
When you look at some extended families currently being mentioned in the media you more or less despair.
Litter from cars is just a sympton of a real social problem.
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So we had parking offences in the old days and only the driver was responsible. They changed this so that if the driver does not cough uo then its down Reg Keeper.
Proposed litter offences if driver not known then down to Reg Keeper.
Can you think of another offence that they must be looking at to apply this doctrine?
dvd
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Some talk in here (and other threads) about the "Police State" - I'm not sure I understand where people are coming from, perhaps someone can enlighten me....
I have lived in Britain since I was born in the late 50s and we've always had laws that you do not break speed limits, drop litter, mislead the Police, etc - the list is long... and we were bought up to abide by them and suffer the consequenses if we didn't...
All the complaints I see from people about the "Police State" is when these laws are broken ... what are they suggesting, then?, we have a free for all where we are allowed to whatever we want??
Many call for extra enforcement, but whenever its done, whether by camera or person they moan about it...
Strikes me that if you don't want to abide by the laws of the land then move lands, or quit moaning....
Edited by b308 on 12/04/2008 at 17:34
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Perhaps I should have added (and I'm playing Devil's Advoate with these two posts!) -
As we have got away with things (such as speeding or littering) for so long we should now be allowed to do it without penalty?
;)
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Interesting developments on this thread, i'm not the only one who's noticed the way we are drifting into some sort of science fiction country, where there is a standard of behaviour/way of life for most conformist people, and a sort of parallel almost twilight world where all sorts of strange and sometimes violent persons inhabit.
I can't really describe how i feel about whats happening, but i suppose a simple change occured one day when the fact an old person was battered to death in their own home became just another story, and murders and mayhem seem to be a way of life to some.
Thats only an example extreme as it is, and the littering and general disregard of this parallel society are just a tip (no pun) of the vast iceberg that is the terrible disintegtration of society we have all known and loved with all its faults.
Luds description of the destruction of education was accurate and thought provoking, so your fault Lud for this waffle.
Thinking back to my school days, with masters, and one delightful boys dream of a mistress (sorry got carried away there), there were standards expected and upheld both of behaviour and dress and speech, manners etc.
My school similar no doubt to many others here didn't just teach general subjects but most importantly how to be a reasonably well mannered and civilised human.
There were ultimate sanctions eg the cane, but generally i got a masters detention.
So, who's at fault for not teaching just the basic standards to young people, their parents, the government, i don't profess to know the answers, but i passionately believe things will get an awful lot worse before getting better.
Sorry got a bit carried away there.
Back to OP, it doesn't help that councils are making it extremely difficult to dispose of your garden or general rubbish, that can only result in fly tipping.
I doubt if this new idea will make a scrap of difference, i think its got to go full circle and start with teaching the young to be responsible people again, look to our leaders for examples.....
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GB, you have echoed my thoughts. I am am constantly caught on the horns of a dilema. I abhor this apparently inexorable march towards petty legislation. Freedom of choice within reason is surely the mark of a mature and developed culture. On the other hand if there remain members of our society who refuse to conduct themselves in a manner acceptable to the majority of people then I suppose we need methods of sanction. However, like you, I do feel that a culture of cooperation is much more likely to be achieved through education than legislation. This can sadly though, only be a long term goal. Fear of punishment is, I'm afraid, the only short term solution. Just a great pity that as usual the minority spoil things for the majority. It should indeed be illegal to throw litter from a car. Just not sure that it is necessarily the right thing to penalise the driver or keeper for the actions of others.
Edited by shoespy on 12/04/2008 at 21:08
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"Back to OP, it doesn't help that councils are making it extremely difficult to dispose of your garden or general rubbish, that can only result in fly tipping."
I'm not sure that this is anything to do with it - my local tip - ( Loughborough ) - is as I posted above extremely helpful in disposing of rubbish. Something like 70% is re-cycled. On entry a bloke greets you with "What have you got mate?" and directs you to the correct skip (non-recyclable, cardboard, paper, bottles, batteries, hard core - you name it). I took an old window and frame the other day , chap said "put it there mate and we'll separate the glass from the wood". Surely it must be the same in most places?
Problem is, people are so lazy and have no sense of responsibility - same in education "Can't be bothered to puntuate/spell correctly/structure an essay or argument" but they still pass exams. But what do you expect - most pupils these days do not have to write an essay or structure an argument before A2 level, all exams before that are short answer.
Maybe this is the reason - instant gratification, instant results, "we" expect everything to happen instantly these days and can't be bothered to exercise any patience as in "take your litter home" and dispose of it appropriately, as in put your fag end in a bin, don't spit your gum out on the pavement, etc , etc,
Maybe I'm just rambling but things have changed - it was brought home to me this morning when I happened to come across an article in the local paper of where I grew up. An estate was not a suitable location for an old people's home because the youths would make their lives a misery, a block of maisonnettes was being terrorised by "crack dealers" and users etc, several knifings had taken place etc, yet I used to wander round there and it seemed a pleasant area, certainly my parents had no fears in letting us play there.
Phrase that always comes to mind with me is "Too many rights, not enough responsibility", everybody expects to behave exactly as they want to without considering the effects on others.
As GB said "Sorry got a bit carried away there"
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The Police do NOTHING, (hands tied) even if you give them the info on a plate re serious stuff and don't anyone dare come back and tell me different WITHOUT PROOF. The rules of engagement and the toothless CPS are to BLAME for IT ALL.
Ask ANY COPPER.
MD
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>"Is it just me or is this totally unacceptable?" I think it's just you. It's your car so why can't you be responsible for the behaviour of the people in it?
Because I've many other things to be doing whilst driving other than making sure my passengers (who are old enough to know better) are not dropping litter from my car.
Here's a thought. Some friends come round for a party. One of them brings some illegal drugs. Someone sees them taking it through the lounge window and calls the police. They get off scot free. You, as the householder, are fined for possession. Fair? No, thought not :-)
Cheers.
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We don't want fines, we don't want corporal punishment for littering offences - as usual, totally inappropriate punishment.
We should dress the miscreants in orange jump suits and have them spend a period of days picking litter from our roadsides. They can start right here with the A14!
The answer is too easy.
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my problem with it is that slowly it is all eroding a persons right to silence, if i don't name the culprit then im fined, that means i either suffer a penalty to myself or lose that right which is supposed to be granted to us by law, isn't that akin to forcing a confession by unfair means? and before we get all the nothing to hide stuff then it shouldn't be a problem, why should i be used as a tool without choice to make up for the ineffectiveness of the british legal system?
chris
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We should dress the miscreants in orange jump suits and have them spend a period of days picking litter from our roadsides. They can start right here with the A14!
They do just that in Western Australia, I came across a team dressed as above repairing the path to a tourist viewpoint. Their version of community service
Edited by Old Navy on 12/04/2008 at 21:05
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Here's a thought. Some friends come round for a party. One of them brings some illegal drugs. Someone sees them taking it through the lounge window and calls the police. They get off scot free. You, as the householder, are fined for possession. Fair? No, thought not :-)
I'd say that's fair actually. But then, like I said earlier, I was well brought up, and wouldn't have the sort of friends who would think it acceptable to take illegal drugs in my house.
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" I was well brought up, and wouldn't have the sort of friends who would think it acceptable to take illegal drugs in my house"
You could be married to a frequent illegal drug user and never ever know.
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I'm all for deterrence, if it works.
I think the cause of much of the poor "public" behaviour of people here is a change in the type of respect for authority [a subsoncious feeling "I wouldn't dare"] such that a position now has little respect and it starts at the highest level [it's "Gordon" or worse, never "Prime Minister"]. Our journalists are thugs compared with those overseas and they set the tone of disrespect for authority and order, indeed it's usually mocked. Why is Paxman still employed?
It started in the 1950s I'd guess, exemplified by rock and roll, and "rebellion". Johnny Halliday wouldn't have sold many records here.
Parents don't support teachers in front of their children [true throughout all social classes], nor policemen. Adults aren't supported against ones children either [shop-keepers used to act as unpaid policemen but now couldn't / wouldn't dare/ would be punched by the parents].
Europeans have a greater respect for authority IMHO, but I don't know why us Anglo Saxons are different, but we are.
Youth is much more in charge here than there - children in their 20s and 30s still living with Mum in Italy, socialising with family in France rather than peer groups and so on. Interesting differences and not good news for us. Drinkers in cafes in Paris have a much higher average age than here in my view, but I don't know where their young are! Most teenagers here have almost no social contact/meals/drinks with adults after the age of 14 or so. An extraordinary state of affairs with quite predictable results.
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Respect has to be earned.
Brown doesn't respect us. Have you ever listened to him avoiding question after question and promulgating his sanctimonious "I am right"? Why should we respect him?
We need people like Paxo. Without him there's not the vaguest chance of getting a straight answer to a straight question. Our journalists are no more thugs than any other. They have to act as an unofficial opposition because of the weaknees of the official lot.
We've lost track of what family is in this country. The benefits system encourages people to live apart. Coincillors wanting to build family houses in their boroughs rather than small flats are accused of "heterosexism".
We reward people who display some minimal talent. Who's that bloke the BBC pays £16m?
Back to cars. I heard this morning that road pricing is on the agenda again. If Brown and Darling could convince me they'll spend the money on something useful, or there's some other clear benefit, I'll pay up.
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If Brown and Darling could convince me they'll spend the money on something useful or there's some other clear benefit
Yep, thats where it'll end up.... benefits.... or more civil service jobs, same thing, I suppose....
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sq
The money is running out.............................or has it already?
MD
Edited by Pugugly on 13/04/2008 at 18:29
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in response to the comments about possession of drugs
Rural Devon. Cocaine no prob. Anything else no prob. Hospital consultants on it etc etc etc.
You young ones may well laugh, but others here won't.......................Either get VERY VERY tough and by that I mean a big stick, both literally, (Birch) and metaphorically, etc etc., or the only thing that will sort it out is a war.
Please document these words because I will be proved correct..........Trust me.
MD
Edited by Pugugly on 13/04/2008 at 18:30
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>> If Brown and Darling could convince me they'll spend the money on something useful orthere's some other clear benefit
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Yep, thats where it'll end up.... benefits.... or more civil service jobs, same thing, I suppose....
If in doubt, bash the civil servants.
If you sacked all the civil servants tomorrow, they would be on benefits, which they're not now.
If they were on benefits, they wouldn't be paying tax and national insurance.
If they weren't working as civil servants there wouldn't be a structure to run the country on a day to day basis. Who do you think would do it? Estate agents? Hedge fund managers? Pro footballers?
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So assuming our potential litter bug decides not to throw his plastic water bottle out of the car.
He takes it home, and as the bins are now emptied every two weeks he places it into one of the 4 recycling boxs he has sitting outside his house.
But! Unbeknownst to our potential criminal he has placed the bottle in the wrong recycling box. Instantly the automated system grinds into action and he receives a £60 fine from the council stormtroopers for mixing them up!
Damned if you do. Damned if you don't!
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You won't find many arguments here MD, and the very comfortable so called leaders (elected and otherwise) of the country may just find out one day that we are truly sick of it all.
We saw only recently what our leaders thought of decent people of our country when many of the countryside alliance protesters were virtually beaten up. They weren't rent a crowd louts on a drinking and pillage binge, but you'd never have known it.
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We saw only recently what our leaders thought of decent people of our country when many of the countryside alliance protesters were virtually beaten up. They weren't rent a crowd louts on a drinking and pillage binge but you'd never have known it.
Same thing happened just up the road from here during Foot and Mouth. Plod OTT with video cameras ripping cameras off tax paying folk. ADOLF!!
MD
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I'd say that's fair actually. But then like I said earlier I was well brought up and wouldn't have the sort of friends who would think it acceptable to take illegal drugs in my house.
Eh? Let me see if I've got this right? You'd be perfectly happy to stump up your hard-earned cash for something that you haven't even done? For something done by somebody else and to which you had no involvement? Are you quite mad? :-)
And, just so you know, I was also brought up well and abhor drug-taking and litter-dropping both of which you seem to be under the impression that I condone.
As another poster has stated, this legislation should worry every single person in this country. It is enshrined in British law that you are not expected to incriminate yourself and also that you have the right to remain silent. This is being steadily eroded by threats and fines and is quite simply a national scandal.
PG - I have no wish to incur the wrath of the Mods but I really cannot comprehend how you think it is acceptable to be punished and fined for something that you did not do. To follow your logic, I'd better pop off to the local nick and hand myself in as my ex-wife's rung to tell me that my daughters have had a great day playing hopscotch on a grid they've chalked on the pavement!
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