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Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - davidh
Hi All,

Just a quick question,

Thinking of escaping the punitive VED charges.

Which diesel will be the most reliable/cheapest to operate (based on experiences) between the following:-


VAG 1.9 PD130

CDTI 1.9 150

TDCI 2.0 130

HDI 2.0 136


Many thanks,

D
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Screwloose

The VAG 1.9.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - oldtoffee
VAG because of mpg and potential longevity of the PD engine followed by the HDI and CDTI and the TDCI last only because the potential for injector issues. You'll no doubt get every permutation from others on here! Get any kind of fuel system issue with any of them and the cost to fix will wipe out any savings you make on the VED. The VAG is Euro 3 and the VED is quite high - our PD 100 (auto) is £165 p.a.

With everyone off loading their 2 litre petrols and prices dropping there must be a point where a Mondeo 2 litre even with the VED rises is going to represent really good value for age/mileage compared to leggy diesel hacks.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - 659FBE
VAG 1.9. It has a long life if correctly serviced (oil). Avoid autos - these knock a huge hole in the performance and increse the tax.

Without the benefit of detailed comparisons, I would estimate that my 1.9 manual give one of the best quotients of useful performance per unit (fuel + tax) on the road today. Avoid Cat IV engines.

659.

Edited by 659FBE on 04/04/2008 at 17:36

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - rtj70
Apart from liking diesel characteristics/performance, whether to go diesel or petrol is down to annual mileage to me. Do enough and diesel might be cheaper. But with the gamble on the complexity and associated cost of fixing the injection system. And the bigger gamble on a second hand car of someone using petrol briefly.

With the 9-10 pence difference per litre between petrol and diesel and for some cars not such a big difference in MPG depending on driver, then you need to think long and hard about petrol vs diesel.

I like my diesels cars now (had two) and the laid back driveability is great for me and I might not go back to petrol. And I do get more MPG. But I also liked forced induction (turbo for me) petrol cars. Not so much torque as a diesel but more accessible power. And it's difficult for a diesel nozzle to have been in the fuel filler neck of a petrol.

So if say you wanted to choose then it's like:

- Passat 1.9 PDI 130PS vs Passat 1.8T 150PS
- Mondeo 2.0 130PS TDCI vs Mondeo 2.0 145PS
- Accord 2.2 CDTI vs. Accord 2.4 petrol
- Vectra 1.9 CDTi 150PS vs. Vectra 2.2 155PS direct injection petrol or 2.0T 175PS
- etc.

So for the price difference on purchase, risk of a diesel disaster car, cheaper pence per litre for petrol.... what is the right answer? Only you know.

Me I'd go for a turbo petrol as personal car but I benefit from a company funded car and CO2 is a factor.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Manatee
- Accord 2.2 CDTI vs. Accord 2.4 petrol


On the back of my (Honda) car it says CTDi not CDTi (i-CTDi to give it it's full name).

Might help the search facility on here if the road test database was corrected.

As to what they all mean and whether the order of the letters matters I'm unclear.

AFAIK the key difference is between the VAG pump injector (pumpe duse) system and the high pressure common rail of other modern diesels. Perhaps some of the common rail, turbocharged, intercooled engines use better quality pumps/injectors, if so which are the best of those?

Do the recommendations for the 1.9TD extend to all PD engines?
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Morris Ox
Interesting question, but the answer's not as straightforward as it sounds. VAG's TDI may or may not be a decent engine, but some of the cars it powers are not. Problems with Passats are legion (check CBC and other threads for a fund of evidence that, to paraphrase a marketing slogan, a Volkswagen is not as reliable as everything in life). Over-hyped and over-priced, I'm afraid, and if you are set on that particular motor try it in a Skoda, which I've heard few complaints about.

Honda's CDTi probably is a solid choice since it sits inside a fundamentally better-built car. But it isn't necessarily that economical.

The Mondeo can be brilliant, but while muscular and reasonably economical overall reliability can be a bit hit or miss.

Can't speak for the Vauxhall model, but I'm afraid the Vectra leaves me cold.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - thomp1983
frankly it's probably waste of time changing for ved alone as come 2009 when the ved is again reassessed they'll probably find a way of making the ved on pre 2001 cars prohibitly expensive, i believe there keeping a close eye on the experiment being conducted in germany iirc where they are banning cars over 10 year old entering the cities which will no doubt be adopted here soon enough meaning in a little over 2 years you'll have to change again

chris
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - bazza
How does one distinguish between a Cat 3 and a Cat 4 diesel car then? I have an 2003 Octavia Tdi 110 (non PD), which I'm assuming is Cat 3, I intend to hang on to it as long as possible!
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - rtj70
"How does one distinguish between a Cat 3 and a Cat 4 diesel car then?"

Very good question.

I had one of the early Mondeo TDCi Euro IVs from Oct 2003. It was a bit more cost wise but saved 3% BIK at the time. Kind of cost neutral but I did my bit and thought the Euro IV one might not have EGR problems etc.... it needed two, and other bits.

Was it easily distinguishable from a Euro III version? Not that I could tell. And less fuel efficient and produced a little more CO2 as well.

But why was it EuroIV without any sort of DPF when other cars including newer Fords with the Ford/PSA engines need DPF?
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - paul19
hi guys,

while the vag 1.9 130 is a great engine, from personal experience i had a 3 yr old a3 with same engine, with 50 k miles on the clock the syncros in 3rd gear started to give trouble followed shortly by the turbo leaking oil through the intercooler. solution to the turbo was direct replacement. to put both problems right was going to be in excess of 2k.

apparently these are common problems with the golf 130 tdi as well as the a3.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Roly93
apparently these are common problems with the golf 130 tdi as well as the a3.

Who says ??
We have had many cars in our fleet with this engine, I personally have had 2 cars, my dad and some of my friends have had cars with this engine, and the only problem I have ever heard of is with the MAF sensor, which can affect almost any diesel engined car anyway.
Some PD's can have weak engine temp sensors, which is a quick cheap, even DIY fix.

The only thing that can usually affect the turbo on these cars is for the vanes to clog up with carbon, probably due to being driven too gently and round town. A lot of turbos are replaced for this reason uneccesarily. These cars do not usually suffer from turbo problems unless there is extreme mileage.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - paul19
Anyone i took the car to get quotes for repair, gearbox specialists and turbo reconditioners and repairers all said the same thing.

Maybe i was unlucky, but it certainly wasn't driven easily and with 50k miles i expected a lot more. i replaced it with an 06 s-line a4 2.0tdi and again had nothing but problems, including a new clutch at 11k miles.

What im really trying to say, i wouldn't get too hung up on mpg differences but consider the through life costs of running these cars, high service costs and generally heavy on tyres in comparison to say fords etc.

I believe vags are generaly over rated and not sure worth the premium price in comparison to alternatives which have came on leaps and bounds in build quality in the past years as haven't the luxury of riding on the back of a premium brand name and therefore been forced to improve the quality to alter peoples perceptions

cheers

paul
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - croftycooke

I have to agree totally with Roly93 - I had a problem with my car going into limp mode on full power and I really did think that the turbo was on it's way out and had blown. I luckily have a mate who is a VAG mechanic who confirmed that he had seen this loads of times before and it was down to a carboned up turbo with a ceased wastegate : the engine was stripped down the turbo was 'serviced' 'cleaned' - £175 later and the car it like a flying machine again....

He also reckons that the car currently on 98k will do the same mileage quite easily....

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - curious
Where would a 2.0 D4D Toyota engine figure in this discussion? What are they like for ease of ownership?
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
Where would a 2.0 D4D Toyota engine figure in this discussion?

Which one? In the Avensis, for instance, the 2.0 D4-D in the Mk II 2003-on model was a belt driven, direct injection, 114bhp engine; at the '06 facelift it was replaced with a 128bhp chain driven, common-rail engine.

The MK1 Avensis used (variations of?) the DI engine - I travelled in a 278k mile one which the cabby said had only needed a new clutch in that time, and he had another with similar miles. He swore by them.

So that very limited evidence would suggest that, reliability wise, the DI D4-Ds were good (too soon to know about the CR versions) - but that's not unusual for Toyota.

My own common rail 2.2 D4-D is up to 28k miles with no issues, but that's not really high enough mileage to judge.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Pendlebury
I'm staggered that so many people are recommending the VAG diesels - especially with all the problems we continually read about on here.
They are very rough & noisy, relatively dirty in terms of up to date euro emmissions standards and I do not think they are any more durable than any other diesel.

I'm with curious and bristol and suggest a Toyota diesel (even though I think the Honda is more refined - it has had it's problems). In D-CAT form they are very clean - and once we have all jumped ship to diesels the next thing darling will use to clobber us is the euroV emmissions - The D-CAT engines are already much cleaner than most other diesels.
The other thing I never see is all the VAG taxi drivers (that can never be wrong - not so sure myself) round my part of the world - if they do not drive hackney carriages they all drive Toyotas - D4D or D-CAT.
I would say they are a pretty safe bet all round.
Also the dealers know how to look after customers as well.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Pendlebury
Having said all that do not neglect to consider a BMW diesel - IMO they will probably offer the best real world mpg with the efficient dynamics package.
Also the refinement is far superior to anyone else's.
I have had the good fortune of driving my brother's 118d and a colleagues 535d recently and the engines are both way ahead of the competition in their class.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - curious
I'd love to be in a position to consider a BMW, but for the moment my priority is relatively cheap motoring.

At present the cars on my rung on the ladder seem to be 2-3 y.o. Avensis/Mondeo/Passat/407/Vectra.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - daveyjp
"The other thing I never see is all the VAG taxi drivers"

Try living near me. I have numbers for 3 taxi firms on my phone. When I call 9 times out of ten I'll get an Octavia or a Superb 1.9 TDi. A neighbour's brother runs a cab - he had a Focus TDDi for years, swapped for a Mondeo TDCi which he ended up getting rid of as he couldn't make money running it due to continual problems, he now has an Octavia.

"relatively dirty in terms of up to date euro emmissions standards"

Latest 2.0TDi CR VAG engine exceeds proposed levels for Euro VI - sounds clean to me.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - craig-pd130
Same here -- round south Cheshire around 50% of taxis are either Octavia, Superb or Passat B5.5
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - curious
The common rail engine.

As far as I can see Toyotas seem to be a little dull, but bomb proof. Would a 2 y.o, low mile, common rail engined Avensis be a better bet to cover say 125000 miles over 5 years than say a similar Passat/407/Vectra/Mondeo judged purely on ease of ownership?

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Pendlebury
Without a doubt curious - for trouble free motoring over a 5 year period with a car that will be 7 years old at the end, the Avensis will beat the others easily.
The thing to remember also is the dealers will be better and Toyota have a habit of extending warranties to 5 years on specific issues if the design or manufacturing process is at fault. I'm afraid the others will be turning their back on you on day one after the 3 years is up. In VW's case they will even try that before the 3 years is up based on what I have read of owners on here - although they do like to do things as gestures of good will within the warranty period !!!!!!!!

For ease of ownership it has to be Toyota from all the cars you listed.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Galad
>For ease of ownership it has to be Toyota from all the cars you listed>

But I'm sure I've read somewhere in HJ over the past year or so that Toyota (and Honda) common rail diesels are starting to show signs of similar problems to other makes.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
Yes Curious, I have to agree with Pendlebury and second the recommendation for Toyota in that bunch.

Without wanting to sound defensive, I'm always interested to hear Toyota's written off as dull, with the implication that somehow the Ford/VW/Peugeot alternatives are in some way exciting.

To my mind, as a driver of cars in that class, none are exciting, all are mass-market and of the differentiating characteristics 'dullness' or 'interesting-ness' is about lowest on my list. When researching my buys I have never thought 'ooh, how exciting'. Maybe when glancing at the 350Zs, M5s or RX-8s around the forecourt, but not the family saloon/hatch stuff.

I'm unsure if others actually find their VWs and Peugeots exciting, or whether they are just buying in to the media's perception that everything Japanese is dull as ditchwater unless it is boasts 280bhp and 4wd.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - bazza
I do agree with you,Bristol, I don't think "exciting" is an adjective that can be applied to any mainstream mass produced car, whatever the marque. All are competent these days, in fact I'm amazed just how competent a car can be bought for a few grand. I recently had a ride in a 3 series 330i ( I think) and whilst no doubt about its competency, it didn't excite me at all. I guess it's an individual thing, trying to think of cars that have raised my pulse, a 1969 Mini Cooper S and a recent ride in an E type Jag where we managed 135+ down the local road, but perhaps that was fear!
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - DP
Another vote for the VAG 1.9 PD, as long as you can guarantee it's had servicing at the correct intervals and with the right oil.

130PS version is the optimum in my opinion.

Noisy and rough by common rail standards, but still a brilliant performer and astonishingly frugal. The refinement shortcomings are partly offset by the fact that you never need to rev this engine. 2500 RPM gives plenty of punch for daily driving. It really does.

Cheers
DP
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Avant
It does indeed, and the 2.0 TDI is worth it every time over the 1.9, with very little loss in economy and plenty more torque. I look forward to trying the new common-rail engine, and I hope that the increased refinement isn't accompanied by loss of torque.

DP - you like your Scenic: I can't remember which diesel engine it has but how does it compare with the VAG unit? I had a good test run in a 2.0 diesel Scenic 150 bhp and liked the engine's performance and refinement, but the car itself was too wallowy for my taste and trim was falling off the 7,000 mile demonstrator.

Edited by Avant on 06/04/2008 at 15:02

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - prm72
Hw about the Volvo D5, i've just bought one and its powerful and quiet and returns 45 mpg.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - DP
Hi Avant,

We have the 1.9dCi 120PS version, deliberately chosen to avoid all the FAP nonsense

It's not as gutsy feeling as the VAG engine, and lacks that satisfying part throttle surge, but is much more linear and "petrol-like" in its response, and very free revving by diesel standards, sounding and feeling happy to be extended right round towards 5,000 RPM. As I said, the trade off is the lack of punch lower down, but I suspect the new 150 bhp engine is better in that respect. Most impressive of all though is the refinement. In normal driving you can barely hear it at all, and when revved it remains smooth and composed, without a hint of the typical deep diesel rumble. Apart from two glow plug failures (which would have been one if I hadn't been a cheapskate and replaced the full set), the engine hasn't needed any attention outside of routine maintenance, and doesn't use a drop of oil.

As you discovered, it's not a drivers car by any stretch of the imagination (I personally dislike the horrid electric power steering more than the soft set up), but as a long legged, comfy family cruiser, we've been delighted with the car. Build quality is surprisingly good in the main, but with alarmingly cheap plastics used in places (a typical French car and no real surprise), but we had the car professionally valeted last weekend and were both amazed how well it scrubbed up inside. The seats and carpets came up as new (50k on the clock) and the only signs of wear were on the gearknob, and the B-pillar trim. There's a daft piece of design which allows the seatbelts to chafe on the pillar trim and wear a groove in it.

Reliability? A bust electric window regulator which Renault UK paid for even though the warranty had expired by two months, and a problem with the panoramic sunroof. Oh, and the glow plugs mentioned earlier. That's in just over a year and 15,000 miles of typical family hack (ab)use.

We do really like it. It's just very "French" in that it's quite stylish (for a people carrier), a little quirky, and very comfy and soft.

Cheers
DP

Edited by DP on 06/04/2008 at 16:25

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - SuperBuyer
I'm running a Golf Mk4 150bhp diesel with 128K on the clock (Jan 04 reg'd) with no major problems to date, whilst the weekend runabout is a Shogun 3.2 DiD (Apr 01 reg'd) with 115K on the clock, and only an oil leak to fix now...

The VAG for me everytime... We've just bought a new company car, the Audi A3 1.9 Special Edition (105bhp) - 62.8mpg, £35 road tax, obviously 3yr warranty. £80/month tax for a 40% tax payer. £15K on the road inc VAT as first reg'd keeper.
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Screwloose
SB

Don't go tempting the all-powerful Curse of Murray Walker when you're smoking an ARL and a Shogun with a £1500 DMF.....
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - SuperBuyer
The Shogun can be scrapped if the flywheel goes - and the Golf is only about £700 worth of clutch & DMF.

Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed!
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Dutchie

Buy a diesel what is clean to run and DPF is not a nonsense in my opinion.All cars have their problems if not taking care off.Like humans as they get older they fall to bits.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - dieseldogg

Haruimph

1.9TDI VW lump

1998 june reg, chipped to 125 bhp at about 50,000

222,222 miles today recorded......all origional, clutch, head gasket , exhaust etc everything of significence.

PS..........50.5 mpg recorded over the last 2700 miles ( 90 hrs at 30 mph ave)

but meticilous re oil & coolant, (mind the brake fluid has never been changed)

then f--------- fleec her ( well not really) but tows regularly

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - john farrar

Sounds good DD. At what intervals did you change the cambelt?

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - dieseldogg

60,000 per VW schedule

plus run her on tractor oil, being Case No1, changed every 5000 with the filter.

& swopped to every 10,000 when I switched to Comma or whatever other mid range spec semi synth.

cheers

M

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Tyrant
Just my 2 pennorth. Madrid is said to have 9000 Octavia taxis. I know they get special prices for a model called TOUR which is a stripped down Mk 1 but can 9000 taxi drivers be wrong ??

Well obviously but I'm not telling them !!
Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Tyrant

Damn--missed the point that they are all diesels of course.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Avant

They are, but probably not equipped with a DPF. It'll be interesting to see what taxi-drivers choose in future when they replace their cars. DPFs and urban taxi work aren't made for each other. I can see a bright future for the Octavia 1.2 TSI which I believe isn't as underpowered as the engine size might suggest.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - dieseldogg

Erm, I swithered about ordering one of the last of the 1.9 diesels in the Octavia ( ordered a 1.6 diesel instead) ..............however, one of the apparently more interested & knowledgable salesmen commented that Skoda was still producing this varient for the fleet market, I figgered primarily for the Taxi trade

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - dieseldogg

Since this site has fried my brain with its idosyncracies/crashs recently I will make another comment re the 1.2 TSI in the Yeti ( which I would have preferred to the OCtavia) Its a wee wonder, drives like a diesel since I had just stepped out of a 1.9TDI and noticed NO difference in the driving style required, never stalled that pipsqueak of an engine the once , no difference in change up revs either that I noticed

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Avant

Dieseldogg - I'm sorry if you're still having problems with the software: our developer works hard to stop these things happening and still they come back. I'm so glad I don't work in IT - it would drive me round the bend. Sometimes I dream of a blissful world where I never hear the words 'software' or 'server' again....

If you (or anyone else) have any further problems, please E-mail us (moderators@honestjohn.co.uk) and we can pass your comments straight on to the developer.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - dieseldogg

Hey

Avant, Not specifically this Forums problem, its a work related internet access filter thinngy as well, & I'm lucky to get on the computer at Home............... its needed for gaming

sigh

Well at least hes off to uni thisbackend

Cheers

M

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - Glenn 42

Most local taxi drivers use Octavia diesels and, barring one who hit unlucky with his, all others say they are very impressed with the economy and performance. An Octavia is cheaper and more reliable than a Passat as well.

An interesting choice would be a Jaguar X Type 2.2 diesel. My friend Adam in Bournemout has one and it is almost as quiet as a petrol Jaguar yet returns 45-50mpg, far more than the 2.0 petrol he had previously.

Best diesel to run privately VAG?CDTI?TDCI?HDI? - sparky93
I was also unlucky when I got my derv.
It was a 03 octavia 19tdi alh engine. Had 23k miles.
but found on cold starts that it was reluctent to start, and coff'ed/lumpyed up to running ok, with lots of blue and white smoke.
turned out that th hg was naf, gasses were getting into the header, and smoke coming out of it if cold started with cap off.
but, there was more.....
It had the original cambelt, so i got that changed due to age. note the smoke/starting issue was there prior to change.

The original belt was still pressent and showing signs of age.

now back to the hg, I took it in to be done, and had it skimmed, and valve guides needed changing too and 2 followers(oil filled) fell apart.

was noted that the piston tops were scuffed and damaged and 3 conrod were assumed bent as the tops did not go as high as the 1 did. no idea how or what happened there, i moved it on once hg was done, too costly to carry on, it had some chequered history that car did.