>>no matter if he was big or small>>
You clearly like hospital food...:-)
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Maybe niceguyeddy is Vinnie Jones' bodyguard.
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Not good enough! He would have to be Vinnie Jones' bodyguard's bodyguard - LOL!
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I would report it to the police and let them sort it out. If you have a quiet word with them and do not report to the police and someone else does. Then who do you think is going to get the blame.
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If you report it to the DVLA they can only act if the vehicle is on the public highway when they come to check (and they do).
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Because of uninsured drivers MY insurance is about 5% more expensive to cover uninsured driver risk... as if everyone else's.
If that was the case, then why does insurers take out your NCD if hit by uninsured driver? I can't recall which company [other than Direct Line] doesn't blame you for being hit by uninsured driver.
While I definitely do not condone driving without insurance, the hard fact is - insurance is so expensive nowadays, many people simply struggle to get one.
It's all down to economy. Unless govt. does something to make premium amounts "reasonable", we'll see more and more uninsured drivers on road.
The main reason of rising premium is the cost of repair + hire car price etc.
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Woodbines, I assume this is at me?
"where you'll be in good company & can all run around without insurance, MOT, RFL etc"
However, no where have I supported such views. Maybe you are reading me wrong?
I am saying, give him a chance to correct it, Other stuff may get corrected too if he knows he is being spied on.
However, niceguyeddy has my admiration, and my point entirely.
"I would inform the police then the DVLA and then go and tell him what I had done and why I had done it ..... no matter if he was big or small"
Having the bottle and the strength of character and the common sense to ACTUALLY TALK to the "offender" rather than hiding behind the net curtains and hoping that somebody else will do the dirty work for you!
But, just remember, if you have been speeding, spoken to someone on your phone whilst driving, smoked where you shouldn't, parked where you shouldn't etc etc etc then what gives you the right to tell someone else they are breaking the law???
Hence, if you want to shop him without talking to him, I hope you are whiter than white!
And of all th do gooders on here, I bet every single 1 of you (and me) has broken a law of some sort in the last day/week/month etc. If so , why are some laws ok to be broken and others not?
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In some cities I have lived in - eg Liverpool or Manchester - having "the common sense to ACTUALLY TALK to the "offender"" would likely end up with at best a beating up and at worst stabbing of yourself or worse persection of your family.
I remind you of the traffic lights altercation where someone was shot for arguing with a criminal.
Of course, if your "common sense" says that the risk is ok....
But my "common sense" says your judgement in today's society is reckless.
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Then feel free to hide behind the net curtains and hope that somebody else will do the dirty work for you!
Its not difficult, especially when walking a dog past the house, to say something like,
" Here, did you realise your tax is out of date. I saw some cars getting checked the other day in the streets nearby! Dont want to run the risk of a big fine or worse."
if thats too much for you, then NC's idea of an anonymous letter to his house?
However, if thats too much, then I sympathise and hope you are able to move soon!
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yorkiebar, you asked:However, no where have I supported such views.
See your very first post at the top of the thread: Mon 24 Mar 08 13:40
You wrote: "Don't mind it not having tax"
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Which I dont. There is ample anpr, dvla, police and umpteen other things that catch up with and can potentially confiscate his vehicle. I pay taxes for this, they are welcome to his car. I dont personally feel the need to worry about chasing car tax.
Insurance, I do care strongly about, and said so. he may have insurance, have a word with him and find out?
What I do care about equally strongly is everybody feels its their duty to shop him for these "possible" offences, but are quite likely breaking other laws themselves.
Not very keen on shopping other people unless own house is perfect. I cant say that mine is (but I do try), and therefore a quiet word is by far the preferred option!
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The problem is (generally) no VED = no insurance = no MOT + the possiblity of a suspended driver or just no driving license anyway. Perhaps some links to uninsured driver tragedies on our roads might help explain why we do our civic duty in reporting these people. Just stunned really that people think a 'quiet word in the ear' has any effect on these people, those days have sadly gone!
Edited by jmaccyd on 25/03/2008 at 20:48
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Other people may see that speeding is a worse crime, or smoking etc etc.
What I dont understand is why everyone is so keen to just shop him (probably would be my end route if the quiet word failed) without a word 1st?
Or is everyone else so squeaky clean on all the other laws that its only me that is concerned that I might be informing on 1 law and being shopped by others on other laws? Or are some laws more important?
And, fyi, I probably have seen, up close and personal, far more road incidents than the average. Certainly more than I care to have seen!
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Not a case of being "squeaky clean" or even "holier than thou". Back in the days of my mis-spent youth, I got done for a few things including no insurance. Didn't bother me too much at the time; then I grew up and realised how naive and foolish it was.
Human nature dictates that we will try to get away without paying for something if we can; so long as the consequences do not disadvantage anyone except the tax-man. When those consequences include ruining someone else's property, livelihood and even life I'm no longer prepared to be so forgiving. So I still say shop him; he obviously knows the risks.
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As I understand it, it is the role of the police to engage members of the public about the breaking of the law.
Given that one must live near ones neighbours, publically questioning them or even approaching them about something that is not your business to do so, seems foolish unless you are totally sure they have genuinely forgotten to tax and insure their car - unlikely and therefore they are most likely someone who may have as little regard for the person highlighting their illegality as they do for the law.
This idea that shopping people for openly breaking the law is somehow morally corrupt is a criminals code, not a moral one.
I pay my tax and insurance despite it getting harder to find the cash, so no chance I would support anyone who dodged it.
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Indeed, and since your so aware of road incidents you know the increased risks to all road users from those drivers that chose to drive uninsured. Would I be 'high-fiving' in reporting such vehicles- no most certainly not. Will I go out clip board in hand searching for such vehicles - certainly not. However, if I come across such a vehicle I have and will report it on the DVLC website.
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I wonder if where we live affects our opinion on "shop him or not". Some suggest shopping and some well against. I'm for.
So how about the original poster sends me the address and reg of the problem car and I will shop them. No come back on the OP and I won't feel bad. And it's my judgement call so the OP is off the hook.
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Which is quicker?
1. Pick up the phone (or do it through the computer) and grass him/her up?
2. Confront him/her and potentially have an argument on your hands, which could then lead on to further unpleasantness / harrassment / criminal damage at a later date, etc?
I would choose option 1.
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The police will pick up no insurance on thier database, same as no tax or MOT. insurance companies will put thier prices up whether we shop him or not. I certainly would not have a quiet word in todays violent climate. I am all for stepping in etc but not something so trivial which may cause repurcussions. How many of us declare modifications to insurance such as that nice set of alloys, air filter & especially stereo. All these could be seen as deception in their own right.
Also we must remember we are assuming he has no insurance from an internet database!
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There are rules/laws in place which we have to follow. They are not optional. Someone who flaunts the rules is sticking their fingers up at the rest of us.
Don't agonise about this ...... SHOP THEM!
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Fastest solution to this is to wait till the next raft of anti-motorist legislation comes into place (31st March IIRC) The CCTV camera will snap a photograph of the offending vehicle and the fine/summons/conviction is sent through the post. Easy.
What do you mean, there are no CCTV cameras in your street? 20% of the CCTV cameras in the WORLD are on Britain's streets. Give it time.
You're right, I'm being utterly facetious. CCTV is only really used to catch "little fish". The car parked in your street has a cloned number plate, the car is a cut'n'shut from two wrecked grey imports brought over on cargo ships from Cyprus and Malta which doesn't properly exist, hence no V5, MoT, insurance, VED or anything else. The driver is an illegal immigrant living under a false name and he has no driving licence to lose. The moment he's nicked he'll claim political asylum.
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stepping in etc but not something so trivial which may cause repurcussions. How many of us declare modifications to insurance such as that nice set of alloys air filter & especially stereo.
Erm, I do!
I worked with someone who "forgot" to declare an air filter once, he wrote his car off and the insurance company didn't pay him a penny, there's no chance I will allow that happen to me. If anyone mods their car and then doesn't tell their insurance company they may as well not bother getting insurance and saving the cash altogether.
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Ok, Im wrong for thinking a word in somebodys ear might actually do some good. Far better to hide and do the "honourable" thing and shop him quietly! Nc suggested an anonymous letter to try and resolve it, but nobody supported that either!
Just to clarify, because from the flak, it seems that people think I was encouraging no insurance, I wasn't. I said he should be shopped if the word didnt produce results!
But I do hope somebody shops you if they catch you speeding, smoking et al !
I think everybody in their life has done something they shouldnt have (and are ashamed of) but probably remember a turning point. Probably a word from somebody etc. that changd them form the irresponsible to the responsible!
This guy, who everybody has already decided is guilty, wont get that option.
We didnt know what type of guy he was, respectable or not, whether there was a reason or not. just guilty, full stop!
I know of cars that are insured, but not recorded as such on the website. Cars that show no because tax discs havent arrived in the post, or have been stolen.
But, sleep soundly, he obviously desreves what he gets!
Personally I am ashamed that few people feel so little towards another person without more details!. And how smug the majority are, even though they are undoubtedly brakeing other laws
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Yorkiebar.... I quite agree that your friend's car may be erroneously missing from the insurance database, it does happen; however if that IS the case he has only the lack of RFL to worry about. So what's the problem, or are you going to agonise over your dilemma till he hits YOUR car and ruins YOUR no claims bonus!
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Please try and understand all of what I am saying, rather than just the little bits? I AGREE HE SHOULD HAVE INSURANCE! But is he automatically guilty?
You don't break any laws either? Ever?
And my no claims bonus is probably 5 -10 times the value of what yours is! I should be more concerned than you? I probably am!
Edited by yorkiebar on 26/03/2008 at 20:32
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If he's not guilty then he has nothing to worry about.
I take your point about breaking the law, I do every day - but only a little bit (moderate speeding) - but I would never drive without insurance.
Depending on what sort of person he his, I would probably approach him and speak face to face - assuming his knuckles weren't on the pavement that is.
To be honest - the original post is a very emotive one and guaranteed to provoke the reaction it has - especially in an 'active' forum like this. Please don't be offended by this - that's not my intention.
I genuinely wish you all the best with whatever decision you come to.
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The car in question is a beat up 1996 Citroen Saxo which the owner / driver drives "with spirit". I have seen the the 2 young children (at least 5-8 yr old) sit in the car unrestrained whilst mum/dad drive around.
From the look of both the mum & dad I would not want to approach them - their general demeanour is off-putting (as is their attitude to driving / care of their children)
I will therefore not be "knocking on their door" because I do not know excatly where they live in a terrace of houses/flats "(cars are parked in a communal area) and I could end up on the wrong side of a fist.
However the topic has produced some spirited / nigh heated debate so it has been worthwhile posting the topic.
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I think it has produced more than debate about the tax and insurance (or possible lack of it). It has also produced how people will now cower behind secret numbers rather than standing up for what is right, and actually talk to somebody!
No wonder we are such a nanny state!
Ok, I work in the motor trade and I might be big and strong (I dont put myself in that category and I am not!), but I do know how to talk to people. All sorts of people, not just those in my own social circles.
There are far more sensible people out there than maniacs; even if some of them come across as brash and aggressive. A lot of that is to actually deter problems from people they are scared of!
But th more you hide now, the more you will have to hide in the future!
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I AGREE HE SHOULD HAVE INSURANCE! But is he automatically guilty?
Since you're in the trade you will no doubt be aware that if you knowingly (or even unwittingly since ignorance is not a defence) drive a car on the public highway without valid insurance then you are AUTOMATICALLY guilty of an offence. Read my previous posts and you will realise that I was daft enough to find this out the hard way and for the record it cost me a 12 month ban and £200 fine about twenty years ago.
I didn't get any sympathy because I had wife, young kids, lived in a rough area, had a bad childhood, was bullied at school etcetera ad nauseam. I didn't deserve any either, and nor does this bloke.
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If anyone saw the motorway cops programme earlier on BBC1 there was a French chap who was stopped because his car was not on the insurance database.
He produced his insurance cert etc. but he'd failed to pay and so it was cancelled. Hence being stopped. It then turned out he had 6 points for doing this before! Doh!
So people do cheat on this it seems...
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If anyone saw the motorway cops programme earlier on BBC1 there was a French chap who was stopped because his car was not on the insurance database.
But as he pointed out, it wasn't his fault; it was the policeman's :-)
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I totally see where yorkie is coming from and it is a shame when people get shopped for genuine mistakes when a quiet word would have sufficed. But there are different types of people and this geezer sounds like typical chav scum to me, maybe not but I'd say on balance probably. Appearances can be deceptive but I know that I could approach anyone in my road or at my work and say, "hey mate did you know your tax has expired, thought I'd let you know in case you got a fine," without any kind of problem, but that's because they behave like responsible people. There are so many aggressive people out there these days and it's not about whether you have the bottle or not. I've confronted people for all sorts of things, some chavs, some who considered themselves paragons of society and some I've known damned well are going to try to have a pop at me because they're looking for an excuse and that's why they're doing what they're doing, but all I see in the end is people clam up and dig their heels in, their self-esteem relies on never being wrong and they don't want to hear it. Then I just feel bad about the confrontation while they just continue on their selfish little way. I'm tempted to say shop him, but frustratingly I can't disagree with yorkies point and feel sad for the way things are, then I think, well do you know what? every weekday I drive and walk and take the bus for four hours to get to work and back and I experience or see others experience the full-on selfishness of others, of us, of me, of our society of which we are part and which we are to blame for and just think, we deserve it all. The outpouring of opinion in this forum, on this issue, isn't about tax or insurance; it's about the type of behaviour and the type of person that we feel threatens our spheres of existence. The more we do the right thing ourselves and encourage those close to use to do the same the better things will be and the less chavs there will be with their feet up on the seats of society. I'm welling up.
Blasphemous word pulled
Edited by Pugugly on 26/03/2008 at 23:23
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He produced his insurance cert etc. but he'd failed to pay and so it was cancelled. Hence being stopped. It then turned out he had 6 points for doing this before! Doh! So people do cheat on this it seems...
Of course they do.... or try to. Many years ago it was easy; for example I had a "rider policy" for my motorbike which said on it that I could ride any motorcycle. What the certificate DIDN'T say was that it was only up to 225 cc capacity, but it didn't stop me trying to fool the coppers if I got stopped. First time I got away with it, second one was a bike cop and knew the score.
Nowadays with everything on a database it's much easier for the law (and everyone else) to check up on you, so IMHO it's easier, and in the long run cheaper, to stay legit.
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Harleyman, most of us know it's best to stay legit. When we aren't, for a moment or a day or even a week, we worry and want to straighten everything out as soon as that slow cheque drops through the letter box.
But I can't help agreeing with yorkiebar. I don't like grasses, not because I am a criminal - although I may be for all anyone here knows - but because I was once a child, in a playground and classroom and so on, in the company of people some of whom were honest and decent and some of whom simply made trouble by saying things. Even judges don't like these types, not really. There are some things that really count, others that only count if something bad happens.
You have to have a proper assessment of the person you are reporting. Perhaps you are doing the world a favour, perhaps you are ruining the life of a more or less innocent individual. That's the problem with this stuff.
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" The problem is (generally) no VED = no insurance = no MOT "
And the corollary is that you need insurance and MOT to get the VED, so no need to mention anything other than the suggestion that tax discs are being checked in the area. That way, it sounds like a favour, and if he doesn't do anything about it and you shop him, it won't come as a surprise when he gets a visit.
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I would shop him without a second thought.
I am sorry to say I will not approach anyone to have a quiet word!
I have suffered enough verbal abuse from "normal" types who were in the wrong but thought otherwise, even saying " excuse me are you aware your brake lights have failed" has generated " So xxxxxxx what ! It's none of your business."
I have experienced road rage were people have suddenly flipped for almost no reason.
My late brother got a smashed nose when he asked some one not to to park amongst the forest of police cones deployed in road awaiting the imminent arrival a mega crane.
Sadly, "having a quiet word" is off my radar, even in my up market area.
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hands up any body who's ever driven a vehicle but assumed another's identity, being a twin it did cross our minds when we were young but never actually did it ...honest
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UPDATE
The RFL "hit squad" were in the street and the Non Taxed (probably not insured/MoTd)Citroen escaped being caught.
The owners are presumably at work and the car away from home.
The "hit squad" clamped 2 x cars - a 'W' BMW 3 Series and a 'W' Megane cabriolet.
Don't know anything about the BMW but the Megane belongs to a house with 3/4 cars and he had it on the street and not in the garage - to my knowldge it has not moved in weeks - with a clamp on it (and plastered with stickers) it won't be going anywhere soon.
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markoose,
well done, great post, and thank you for seeing more than just the tax/insurance point of view.
sadly, it needs more of us, but every bit helps!
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To Yorkiebar - I personally wouldn´t recommend confronting the person in question.
I have 2 stab scars in my back, I was lucky enough to survive.
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ring plod and tell them , but dont give any names (including yours) im sure they can get a community officer to have a wonder around the area checking tax discs
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UPDATE The RFL "hit squad" were in the street and the Non Taxed (probably not insured/MoTd)Citroen escaped being caught.
SNIPQUOTE
Now if the untaxed Citroen was a genuine oversight I bet it gets taxed pretty quick due to the very effective advertising on the other 2 vehicles. It is quite noticeable a large yellow clamp with DVLA written on it and large stickers on the car it works. In fact it works so well that the DVLA actually plant clamped cars in certain areas they also have a lorry with a load of crushed cars on which carries advertising warning about the penalties of no tax...Cheers...Keo.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 28/03/2008 at 00:50
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And if they do not tax the Citroen soon (and so need an MOT/insurance) I will shop them for you. You might have got a good result here.... until someone on your street reads this forum ;-)
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I have just noted a vehicle in my village with tax expired at the end of September 2007. I checked on the DVLA database and it is shown as unlicenced. I then reported it via the DVLA website and the form wanted to know when/where the vehicle could be seen as a DVLA employee would have to actually 'see' it on the road and untaxed. What is this all about? I thought they could just send a penalty notice to the registered keeper for having the vehicle on the road either without tax or in use without SORN
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I would think that it's there to ensure that the DVLA staff don't waste their time visiting someone whose car may be untaxed but the car's on private land; a small defence against a neighbour with a grudge, say.
The car in question may well be on SORN, and therefore perfectly legit; let's face it, it's asking a bit much for TWO government computer systems to interface accurately with each other! ;-)
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It may be on SORN but it is out on the public road with the engine warm ie in use. If an ANPR camera spots a car going down the road, which the database shows to be lacking tax/insurance/MOT etc, how is the vehicle dealt with? A snatch squad in a layby down the road or a grumpy letter from Swansea with a fixed penalty notice? You can get a fixed penalty for not renewing SORN SFAIK, nobody has to see the car - if you miss the declaration date you get a penalty. Why should an untaxed car on the road and in use be any different?
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If it's on SORN it shows on the system as on SORN not as unlicensed
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ON DVLA Site showed "Licence Due"
On the car it was nigh 1 mth out of date (28Feb 08)
On Askmid it was uninsured
and I saw it again today being driven around (like a banshee)
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Perhaps this car - nothing much has been said about a person - should be reported for the good of humanity.
Of course I don't want people to drive about uninsured. But I can't for the life of me work out why everyone cares so much. After a catastrophe, OK, I understand. But just cold and potential like this? Perhaps life seems more too short to me than it does to other people.
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Well said Lud. Thread now locked as we're going around in a perpetual loop. The OP can update us if he chooses.
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