Hmmm £10 an hour..... I'm afraid I value my time a little higher than that.
People will pay if it saves time. Unless you are one of those people who prefer to spend more hours, of their precious few years of life on this planet, on the road sitting in their cars.
Which is where the Government gets the idea that road pricing, based on congestion, will be successful. In a way, this principle already works on the M6 Toll road.
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As said above, there's a time and a place for making progress.
If you travel 100 miles on a free-flowing motorway journey, you only save 14 minutes if you can maintain a steady 85 compared with a steady 70 ... and I can't remember the last time I was able to maintain 85 for more than a few minutes.
The most time saved when driving point-to-point is on A / B roads and in town. If you can get past slow-moving wagons, Sunday drivers and not get baulked badly by traffic lights etc then that has the biggest impact on a journey.
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>>Hmmm £10 an hour..... I'm afraid I value my time a little higher than that.
I'm sure many of us do! But the point is you may spend all that (..and more) time you've 'saved' by going hell-for-leather, de-stressing/winding-down, whatever you may call it, at journey end. I know I do (or rather did) before I decided to drive (in 'utility' mode) at a speed slower than the rep-lane, but just a bit faster than ambient HGV speed.
I regurlarly get 52-55mpg in my c270 auto driving that way - and don't really notice the extra half-hour it takes - except in the way I'm ready to 'do business' or go into social mode as soon as I step out of the car. Doubley relaxing also, because I calcualte it cost less than £20 in fuel for a 200-mile round trip. The only thing I might (selfishly) regret, is if other people cotton-on to this & start driving at my speed as well - which would mean more speed juggling & overtaking for me.
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The fuel economy advantage also depends on the car. Our old MX-5 did 28-30 mpg pretty much however it was driven. The Scenic ranges from 37-50.
Cruise control is a great gadget for driving sensibly. Set it at 60 on the motorway, kick back and watch the world go by in a tailgating, panic braking, 85 mph blur from lane 1.
You can feel the stress levels dropping. It also helps that nobody uses lane 1 any more, so you can actually maintain a constant speed even in busy times.
Cheers
DP
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Sometimes I find that extra hour in the car to be a bonus. Listen to music without interruption, a good session of radio 4 perhaps or some Janet and John (or read a bit of a good book if you are on the M40), but above all the lower stress owing to the relative serenity of being caressed inbetween a couple of HGVs at 60 or so, and not having to make like an owl on amphetamines to establish the whereabouts of the next homicidal maniac should you want to pull out to overtake.
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I used to do a commute from Leicester to Birmingham. I quickly discovered that travelling at high speed on the motorway (don't wish to say how high) had very little impact on the overall travel time. Bascially it got me to the next queue a bit quicker and I ended up more stressed. This is why higher motorway speed limits would have negligible effect on travel times (at least when the roads are busy).
By far the best way of reducing your journey time is to organise things so that you are not travelling at peak time. Travel at a constant 60mph gets you there a lot quicker than travelling in slow moving queues with bursts of 85mph in between.
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Hmmm £10 an hour..... I'm afraid I value my time a little higher than that.
I do myself, as my charges are £55/hour! But if a customers bill is more because I drive slower (I charge for driving time) and I get more MPG, then it's a "win-win" for me. I don't think anyone can complain too much if it takes me half and hour more than the "norm" (i.e. 80+MPH on the motorway as opposed to 65+MPH) on a 270 mile one way journey.
Before anyone thinks I'm earning £100,000+ a year (at £55/hour), approximately 70% of my working week is in the office, when I'm earning nowt!
Just another point, my old Passat had an average speed read-out and this NEVER, over the 6+ years/100,000 miles life of the car, went higher than 45MPH over a weekly driving period.
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You are only really valuing your time at say £55 per hour if you actually have the choice of putting the saved hour of journey time to work and earning that £55.
Perhaps if you have another freelance job working from home, and can race back home and earn a quick £55 while waiting for supper then that is true, but most people don't.
The only real choice is betwen spending a stressful time not earning £55 or a more relaxing time. The bonus from chosing the more relaxed time is that you get given another 10 years of life, and for most people that is worth infinitely more than £55 an hour.
Supposing you could exagerate the whole effect, and chose between earning a million pounds an hour, but only live for one day, or £10 an hour and live indefinitely, which would you chose?
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All these people valuing their time so highly. How come you have time to post on here? Each post must cost you at least £5.
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I tend to set cruise at about 65 - just quick enough to pass the HGVs but not fast enough to get caught up in the lane 3 stop/start traffic - usually get 65/70mpg at that speed as well - been doing it for about 3 or 4 years now - as said its a lot less stressful - then when I cross the channel its up to 85 or more when traffic allows and its so much nicer to drive quickly over there than it is over here!
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Trouble is, I find that if I drive a modern car on a motorway at 60mph for 100 miles, I'm on the brink of falling asleep. One needs a *bit* of stimulus in order to retain a safe level of concentration.
(Note this is 60mph NOT in heavy rain nor fog nor 3 lanes of heavy traffic.)
As for the 'bunching' problems on motorways:
If only people would move back into lane 1 when they should do, then there'd always be room for a car going Fast in lane 3 to move over into lane 2 to let an Even Faster car come past them.
And again if only people would move back into lane 1 when they should do, a car going Medium-Fast in lane 2 would not have to move into lane 3 to get past them, thereby potentially obstructing a car going Fast in lane 3.
(70mpg, b308? -what vehicle is that??)
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(70mpg b308? -what vehicle is that??)
1.4TDi 80bhp Fabia Estate.
With regards to the other comment - at that speed you are usually involved in overtaking HGVs and staying out of the way of the speed merchants - with cc on you have to plan ahead carefully to avoid having to knock it out of cruise, so I find I've enough to get on with, but not enough to drive me barmy!
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All these people valuing their time so highly. How come you have time to post on here? Each post must cost you at least £5.
Life would be very boring if I stuck to my task all the time!
I work as an independant engineer in a specialised industry and can charge this rate when a customer requests my services on-site. I would estimate that I spend about 20% of my working week on-site, so overall, I'm actually "earning" significantly less than this. We are getting a bit off topic here though.
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My old '94 Passat TDI has a longstanding fuel or engine management problem that I'm told can only be fixed by replacing all the bits (injectors, pump, MAF, ECU etc) in turn until the engine gives full power. I've got used to the slow acceleration in a sort of semi-default mode on my commute to and from work but I reckon it's doing better than the 52 mpg I used to get when it worked properly - haven't measured yet - must do so to see if I'm right!
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Once after a massive arguement with SWMBO, i drove back from Chichester to London at 50-55 mph. I have never felt so stressed or tired, sitting monotously in lane 1. My normal driving involves all 3 lanes, indicating, using mirrors and staying alert- the former was mind numbingly dull- I'll carry on doing 75ish thank you, which gives me about 550 miles on a full 17 gallon tank witha 2.2 dci heavy loaded Espace-
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At 50/55 I'd agree - I doubt you'd overtake anything... very boring.... thats why i like 65!
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>> I work as an independant engineer in a specialised industry and can charge this rate when a customer requests my services on-site.>>>>
That's a good illustration of the fallacy of saying "I value my time at £55 per hour " or whatever. Your time is charged at £55 per hour when you have a customer. But if you drive faster and get home an hour earlier you are very unlikely to happen to have a customer there waiting to pay you £55 for your time. In truth that time has no monetary value - it is down-time in economic terms.
But it can have the capacity to be infinitely valuable relaxing, stress-free, family, listening to music, gardening, or any other kind of time. Or you can just waste it.
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That's a good illustration of the fallacy of saying "I value my time at £55 per hour " or whatever.
Yes, you're dead right Cliff.
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I find drivers' style most amusing esecially the "accelerate hard from light", "pass anywhere safe or unsafe" and "stop at the very last minute",
All techniques designed to stress the driver (and passengers) , increase car wear, burn more fuel... and get to the destination no faster.
Simple recognition of potential problems ahead, and judicious acceleration plus sustained speed (as opposed to bursts of speed and slowing down) make all the difference to fuel consumption, my comfort and safety.
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I must admit to having slowed down recently - generally travelling at around lorry speed - 55 to 60 on the motorway driving in at 5.30am, whilst home is generally done at around 70mph. The car is reporting an average of 56mpg on the tank so far, and I feel much less stressed. No worrying when you see a police car etc...
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I like driving. As a result, more often than not, I am forced to drive more slowly than I want to by others, sometimes many others, but it only takes one, who want to go a bit or a lot or an incredible, criminal amount slower than I do.
Quite often the rhythms forced on one by other traffic are not even economical - braking downhill, slowly accelerating uphill, all the carp repertoire. Sometimes though one is in the company of good but staid and economical drivers. Alhamdulillah! as the Muslims say. Best of all, sometimes one is in the company of good old white van men and sporting young ladies in nice motors, and everyone can bowl along nicely at a whisker or two over the limit.
But that ideal stuff is rare and never lasts all that long.
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If the motorway is clear I am quite happy to cruise at 85-100, a risk yes, but the 70 limit is silly.
My car seems to do 40mpg per tankful whether thrashed or nurtured so no difference there.
Faced with traffic I'm happy to sit back and relax (so to speak) and if I have to dawdle, fine.
Time and a place etc :)
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... and everyone can bowl along nicely at a whisker or two over the limit.
Lud,
May I apologise to you for not breaking the law so that you can?
Are there any other offences, apart from speeding, you would like me to carry out?
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Cruise control is a great gadget for driving sensibly...
Not on the busy motorways we're discussing, surely! I think CC is fundamentally incompatible with managing your speed and position in heavy motorway traffic. I've got one and like it, but I'll use it only if I can be sure of remaining unmolested in lane 1. My rule is that if I have to pull out to pass more than one vehicle in one go, I'll turn it off and control my speed with the pedal - usually to speed up a little to complete the manoeuvre quickly.
Others plainly disagree with me. You can usually spot them when they appear on your shoulder as you're closing on an HGV. You back off a little but they just maintain station. Depending on the space remaining, you might be able to floor the pedal and get out in front, but more often you have to back right off or even brake. Either way, it's sloppy driving and it annoys me!
I was thinking about the slower driving point on the M40 yesterday evening. It was in Enhanced Friday Night mode but, as usual, lane 1 was reasonably clear between the sticks of HGVs. Lanes 2 and 3, meanwhile, were the usual nose-to-tail procession. It occurred to me then that the fundamental problem is the attitude that slower traffic is there to be overtaken. This leads to the lane 1 problem, because drivers pass a slower vehicle not in the order they reach it, but in the order they can get into lane 2, so drivers who can't or don't want to deal with this avoid it by staying in lane 2. That slows down other drivers who think they're entitled to go faster, and the whole thing gets choked.
So I started wondering how this might be improved. Lud won't like my idea but Westpig might because I think it's about enforcement. If you allow people leeway to to bend the rules on speed and lane discipline, the system breaks down because a significant number of drivers think of nothing but maintaining, or trying to improve, their own position in the traffic; they regard other vehicles as obstacles to be overcome, rather than fellow road users to be helped on their way. But if you removed the illusion that it's possible to travel on a busy motorway at significantly more than the speed limit - by firm enforcement of the rules on speed and lane discipline - these drivers might eventually realize that their behaviour gets them nowhere. And, as others have commented, reducing your speed a little costs very little in terms of real journey times.
Quite how you'd do the enforcement is another matter. Marked police cars would probably make matters worse, given the panic they induce. Average speed cameras might help, but unmarked cars would probably work best. This isn't intended as a complete policy document - just some ideas formed while I was listening to Stuart Maconie talking about something else. Interested to know what others here think, though.
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WillDeBeest: interesting post, from the wholly sympathetic viewpoint that relaxed, free flow is best and shunting, braking, hogging the outside lane and 'thinking only of overtaking the other traffic' do more harm than good.
On motorways with light and medium traffic, a Belgian sort of enforcement to persuade drivers to pull into the left lane after overtaking would improve flow by using the slow lane, which is often ignored as even the most craven mimsers think they are 'making progress' and block the outer lanes causing queues of people who really are trying to make progress.
Of course on very crowded motorways where lane 1 is a procession of big lorries, the mimsers take control and it's just too bad. You have to relax, leave a decent gap, watch your mirrors and don't get annoyed by the fools who will try to kill you on average every 3.2 minutes with sudden, jerky, ill-considered manoeuvres.
I'm not against law enforcement at all. But I like it to be sensible and positive, not this restrictive nanny carp.
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On motorways with light and medium traffic a Belgian sort of enforcement to persuade drivers to pull into the left lane after overtaking would improve flow by using the slow lane which is often ignored as even the most craven mimsers think they are 'making progress' and block the outer lanes causing queues of people who really are trying to make progress.
Do they have a system in Belgium?! I've alaways found the Belgian m'ways the same as ours in reagrds to lack of lane discipline and tailgating out of all the North European countries I've driven in... or have I misread your post, Lud?
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It may be different now, but I remember Belgian motorways, two-lane I think, as seeming very busy because drivers pulled into the slow lane between overtakes, even just for a couple of hundred yards. I was given to understand that that was the law there and you could be pulled for not doing it. Anyway most of the local stuff was doing it very busily.
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It may be different now
ONly going on the last couple of years, the French and Germans on either side were fine but the Belgians in the middle were just like us - maybe them having a BL factory over there rubbed off our driving habits onto them! Mainly on the 3 lane bit from Brugges to Brussels though....
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Ifithelps asked:
"Are there any other offences, apart from speeding, you would like me to carry out?"
There might be several, but what's the point of mentioning them? You don't want to help at all.
Your handle is misleading.
Edited by Pugugly on 21/03/2008 at 18:19
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LOL, Lud ! ;-))
Re WillDeBeest's point - he's probably right. But, although it's a highly contentious issue, I'd still be keen to see how our motorways would operate if the law said it was fine to overtake on either side. (Notwithstanding all the congestion caused by accidents in the early months while everyone acclimatised to the new system.)
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Ifithelps: There might be several but what's the point of mentioning them? You don't want to help at all. Your handle is misleading.
Lud,
Fact remains you shouldn't expect the driver in front of you to exceed the speed limit just because you want to.
Another thing, speed limits are maximum, not a minimum, or a target.
Today's roads are crowded and your speed - and mine - is governed by the car in front, apart from increasingly rare overtaking opportunities.
If you can't accept that, you are destined to be one very frustrated motorist.
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Lud was a Beatnik I doubt that him being frustrated is likely. :-)
Edited by Pugugly on 21/03/2008 at 18:24
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Sigh.
I know you're a good chap really ifithelps. But why didn't you notice that my post was all about how one's speed is restricted by other drivers on today's crowded roads, as was my earlier post above?
What you seem to mind is my noticing that the roads are crowded with craven mimsers who get in the way and hamper traffic flow unnecessarily. I am amazed that you don't seem to have noticed it yourself.
If we all keep noticing things the traffic will flow much better and more rapidly. Or so I like to think.
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Sigh. I know you're a good chap really ifithelps....
Lud,
You don't know I'm a good chap, but from the above remarks I know you are a patronising one.
As regards your earlier bright remark about my 'misleading' handle.
Get a dictionary and look up the word 'if' - I think you'll find that covers it.
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Pax ?
PU,
At the risk of revealing myself to be a forum fool, what does Pax mean?
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Maybe a good chap nevertheless, if a prickly one (and perhaps militant mimser), so yes, pax...
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PU,
Thanks, agreed, so it's er, pax from me as well.
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Aw ! I was just starting to enjoy that ! ;-)
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