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A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - theterranaut
Hi there,
long time lurker etc etc.

I've been flipping back, reading through some old posts, in both the General Discussion
and Technical rooms, and I've got a question for Screwloose and any other mechanics
who predate the era of pervasive engine management systems.

My own car-owning history only goes back 20 years or so; I began with an '82 1.0L Mini
and I'm currently running around in an '03 plate Fiesta TDCi.

Whats striking for me, as a not-very-good fixer of cars, is how little it seems 'modern' garages can actually do in the way of fault diagnosis that isnt computer-driven- and more importantly, how often these diagnostic tools can prove to be wrong. I'm lucky in that I have an excellent local garage, staffed by both old-timers and young 'uns, that seem to get it right more often than not. I shudder to think of taking the Fiesta to a main dealer for repair.

There are many tales on this site of owners with both commonplace and mysterious faults
who faithfully take them along to their main dealer, get a diagnosis, get a part replaced, which often fails to cure the problem. Theres usually a bill associated with this- it seems that if the computer says that the problem is caused by part x failing, then this part must be replaced and the customer billed regardless, regardless of its effectiveness in curing the fault.

I guess my question is: granted, the vehicles of yesteryear were usually less complex than current machines- but have the old days of learning mechanical skills, gaining experience, and trusting intuition gone for good in our main dealers?

Apologies if this has ever been asked elsewhere.

TT

Edited by Pugugly on 13/03/2008 at 20:31

A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - Glaikit Wee Scunner {P}
As long as I can afford the upkeep of a decent car, I'll take a modern car any time.
Spent far too much time fiddling with faulty, less complex cars.
And not meeting girls.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - Tomo
GWS has an arguable point of view.

On the other hand, in my time, there was nothing in (for instance) my vintage Lagonda - short of a crankshaft out job - that could not be dealt with by a bit of mechanical insight and decent tools; by myself or at worst by a decent mechanic. And it was actually so simply and robustly designed that anything that, very infrequently, went wrong on the road could be dealt with without even calling out the AA.

I admit I enjoyed "fiddling" with it but it was usually at best unnecessary.

As to girls, the one that mattered could come out completely assured that I could cope with anything that might go wrong, so no excuses for stopping in rural retreats!

Nowadays one either has to have Jap or Korean to be assured of no stoppage, or be prepared to summon and await the rescue service to deliver the vehicle and oneself to places where one would rather neither of them had ever been.


A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - Manatee
I'm not qualified to answer your question but ...

A good friend of mine is a "Screwloose" who does this type of diagnosis. When I quizzed him about the apparently stunning inability of some main dealers to diagnose some serious faults, he put it down to the lack of ability to use the fault codes and other diagnostic info together with the symptoms, and a knowledge of how the vehicle actually works, to figure out the problem, or at least narrow it down to what to test. The machines don't necessarily make the diagnosis, they provide information for the operator to do so. In other words, the problem is "all the gear, no idea" (my words, not his).

I'll be interested in any theory the real Screwloose, and others, have.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - Number_Cruncher
It's an interesting question - I think there are a few ways of looking at it, and as such, my post has become a bit of an essay - sorry!

First, I don't think there ever was a golden age where workshops were filled with wise and skilled mechanics who were seldom wrong. Most of the workshops I've seen have had only one or two people who could reliably go beyond routine servicing tasks.

What made things easier in days gone by was that if a mechanic got it wrong, and fitted a new condensor instead of a new set of points, it didn't break the bank. If today, a mechanic fits an ECU which has been wrongly diagnosed, the customer typically feels the pain.

From the point of view of garage owners, diagnosis and specialist repairs aren't actually a big earner - they're usually more trouble than they are worth. During the time it takes to do a proper diagnosis and repair, a couple of routine services with brake parts have been missed.

The services are very low risk, and very high profit jobs. While undoubtedly more complex, routine servicing of cars has never been simpler. There is no carburettor to adjust, no points to re-set, and timing to re-adjust. It's almost the case that you need to try to get it wrong.

The diagnosis jobs however are high risk - the chance of comeback and customer complaint is high. The costs to equip, train and inform the mechanics are simply eye watering. After you have made this investment in training, as there's a high staff turnover rate, odds are on your mechanic will just take his skills to the garage down the road who offer him a few pounds more per hour. In other words, even the decision to train someone is fraught with risk - there's no guarantee your trained mechanic will actually be able to diagnose faults - the "all the gear, no idea" syndrome mentioned above.

More fundamentally, one of the vital ingredients in diagnosis is the temperament of the mechanic. It's an area where I fall down, I'm nowhere near methodical enough to be good at it. If you take the number of mechanics coming into the trade, probaly half of them will make good mechanics, and less than 10% of these will be any good at diagnosis, will be worth spending time and money in training.

Going one step further, when you consider the pay, conditions, training oopportunities, and regard in which mechanics are held by the public, most potenital entrants who are any good will choose a different career. The mechanics who have the knowledge, intelligence and perseverance to sit down with the technical books when a new system comes out are few and far between.

A shocking proportion of the trade does its diagnosis via the method of poke & hope. This is along the lines of the last car we had that did this kind of fault needed a new XYZ fitting - therefore any car showing these symtoms needs an XYZ. This method may work more times than not, but it will allways let you down sooner or later.

One problem which is growing is that modern car systems are now interlinked by various bus systems - you can almost think of them as a car wide network. More often than not, most independants actually cause more harm than good when replacing or recoding ECUs. While I don't usually recommend people go to a dealer, there aren't many independants who I would trust with such an interconnected system. My ex-colleague now tells me this is his bete noir - he spends longer undoing the damage done than in fixing the actual fault when these garages finally give up and trailer the car to him.

The clever people in the garage trade were those who cherry picked the low skill, high profit work. Batteries, tyres, exhausts, shock absorbers, routine servicing. They know they can make good money, without employing skilled people, without taking much risk of comeback.



A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - Screwloose
terranaut

The answer to your interesting question will have to wait until tomorrow as I don't have time to do it justice tonight.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130
I don't think they've gone for good -- there have always been good and bad mechanics, or more accurately, those that are interested in how the car works, learn about a specific model's nuances, and how to get the best out of it ... and those that treat it as a job and no more.

An example: in the early 70s, Triumph Stags got a terrible rep for unreliability, but a high proportion of those incidences were because many mechanics and owners didn't realise that the engine needed anti-freeze in it all year round, to stop the water passages furring up. These ignoramuses simply did "what they've always done" with cars, and used tap water for coolant in the summer, then wondered why cylinder heads warp and gaskets blow.

30 years later, even after the VAG PD engines had been around for a couple of years, some VW / Audi / Seat / Skoda garages were happily doing oil changes on PD-engined cars with non-PD oil, and blithely reassuring owners that the oil they used was 'fine'.




A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - 659FBE
Excellent points made in the posts above - there's not a lot more I could add.

Extending the discussion a little though, leads me to reinforce my belief that the main dealer business model cannot be made to work in the interests of the customer - even if some altruistic vehicle maker actually wanted it to. The overheads associated with the glass palace dealers just don't make this possible.

So, what happens? We have evidence on this site of vehicle makers excluding such items as brakes from vehicle warranties - possibly a fair point but, what do the dealers do? At any opportunity, new pads and disks are "required" within warranty. The costs associated with this scam are of course outrageous. In fact, a new vehicle which requires new pads which are not worn to the backings is most unlikely to require new disks. Similar practices are adopted in other areas of the vehicle.

It seems to me that VAG and Toyota are amongst the worst offenders here. I run my own (non motoring related) business and see lots of new and newish vehicles each week. Rear disks and pads seem to be a favourite.

I have a suspicion that the VAG UK 4 year/60k timing belt change rule for PD diesels is a similar scam. I am awaiting confirmation, but I believe the 4 year rule is unique to the UK - a brainchild of Milton Keynes. It's quite cleverly pitched, because the 60k won't unduly affect the fleet markets as it's not a lot different to other makers' products, but the 4 year rule will suck in loads of private owners who will feel obliged, on a newish vehicke, to patronise their dealer.

I'll do some more research on this and report back.

659.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130
@659, I remember from lurking on TDIClub that the timing belt interval for PD diesels in the US is 100K miles (not sure what the time / year interval is, however).

I'm sure the manufacturer / dealer response would be that this requires a "special" belt kit.

But even if a special kit IS needed, why don't we have that special kit in Europe, to save the (significant) labour charges from having to do the job nearly twice as often?

A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130
Some anecdotal evidence at these links: relating to 100K cambelt intervals on a 2004 Beetle Tdi and a Passat Tdi

forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=201500&highlig...t

forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=197299&highlig...t
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - 659FBE
Thanks, Craig. I don't believe for a minute that the belts are any different - this would be madness. The Americans only got the PD engine in '04 so there has been plenty of operating experience in Europe prior to this.

I'm going to have a go at e-mailing a VAG dealer in Holland and see what comes back. VAG might get away with this in the UK, but the countries on the mainland of Europe are too well connected for a scam like this (if it is a scam) to work.

659.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130
I still have a TDI club log in so I will post the specific question over there, on PD belt change intervals.

Even if the belts ARE different, and cost 2x more than a "normal belt", that would only add a tiny % to the total cost of the job.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130

Confirmed by a couple of senior posters on TDI Club -- VW USA give 100K miles as the change interval for PD engined cars.

Hmmm.


A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - yorkiebar
Am I right in thinking that in USA, if the change interval for a timing belt is given as 100k and it fails before this time then the manufacturer is responsible for the repairs?
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - 659FBE
That would be really helpful - the more angles from different sources I can get on this one the better. If it is a Milton Keynes scam, it has cost a lot of people a lot of money.

There is a pattern emerging here - brakes, cambelts, recalls - all scare tactics. My PD was the subject of a recall for leaking tandem pumps, but (as I found on the Internet) only pumps from one supplier (LUK). VAG M-K and the local dealer flatly refused to tell me which make of pump was affected (mine is a Bosch) stating that cars had to be "brought in" for checking. I wonder what other faults they would have "found" or caused. In any event, it would have been a complete waste of my time.

The icing on the cake for me was that the recall was issued by post when the car was 1 month out of warranty - although the recall was known about since '04. Sharp practice, I think.

Let's hope the Internet defeats this kind of trading.

659.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - PeterRed
I've raised the point about car maintenance differences between countries before. I suspect that the manufacturers know what they can get away with in certain territories and set their schedules accordingly.

If you check the US maintenance schedules for VAG vehicles, they are completely different to the UK for essentially the same vehicle. They make no mention of 'long life' servicing. In the US a 2000 1.8t Passat requires new oil every 5k. It was relaxed in 2006 so that a Passat requires new oil at 5k, 10k and then every 10k. (Mind you, some of the US forums suggest that an oil change later than every 3000 miles is foolhardy in the extreme.)

Similarly for timing belts, a US 2000 Passat belt should be changed at 80k with no mention of a 4 year rule. A US 2005 Passat TDi belt should be inspected at 80k and changed at 100k.
A q for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechanics! - craig-pd130
@PeterRed, it is unusual that in the US, regular oil drops are an industry in themselves, with lube shops all over. Perhaps the oil service schedules in the US reflect this?

So they get stung for regular oil changes, and we get stung for more frequent cambelt jobs ....
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - Screwloose
TT

You raise a very timely and serious question that will have a big impact on the future of the trade. Even those that thought they could bury their heads in the sand, ignore new technology and just carry on regardless are now being decimated. Remember all those dealerships and little roadside garages that used to dot the landscape....?

The crux on the problem is that the complexity of cars suddenly outstripped the ability of those that try to fix them. With a very few exceptions; most repairers do not have anyone with a clue of how their myriad, networked, systems work. The myth that these advances were self-diagnosing and could thus reduce repair to an unskilled process, has been exposed as the lie it always was. Codes do not dictate the repair; most of them are now confusing at best, counter-productive at worst.

As NC says, diagnostics is now a dirty word in most garages. After repeated financially-neutral, or even negative, experiences; the thought of a customer complaining of a driveability fault, worse still an intermittent one, fills most service managers with dread. At best, they'll grind through the painting-by-numbers "book" procedure for that code and eventually just fit something; at worst, the diagnostic procedure will be uninformed guesswork, based on nothing but idle chatter, ending in totally wasted money - all too often measured in thousands.

Only a blithering idiot would choose to get involved in diagnostics now. It may well be impossible now to keep up with even one manufacturer's technology - let alone all of them. Worse, due to the job-status problems previously mentioned and the woeful portrayal of mechanics in the media; most of the staff of even the glass palaces are unfit to be trained in this essential skill.

It's very odd that only the older, more generally experienced, staff seem to have the ability to grasp even the basics of the craft. The younger ones cling to a strange notion that diagnosics should be easy and that there's a "silver bullet" answer to every problem; they quickly get dispirited when "what the code said" doesn't fix the problem and give up - the older ones know that this is a hard trade, there are rarely easy answers and tend to take a more measured approach.

So, in answer to your question - yes; the days of learning, taking an interest and developing an understanding of how things work are indeed over.

Very soon, there will be no diagnostics carried out at dealer level at all. The costs of the equipment and the total lack of suitable staff to do the job, will force centralization of diagnostics - maybe not a great problem in large conurbations; but spare a thought for the many residents of rural areas that may suddenly find themselves hundreds of miles from a diagnostic dealership.

I used to think that only about one in four diagnostic jobs were properly resolved; now I think it's down to one in ten - fast becoming even less. Most just seem to fizzle out; the car is traded-on and the finance rolled on to the new car. [This is known as SEP diagnostics - someone else's problem...] These cars then used to be bodged-up with second-hand parts by dodgy traders and sold on - not any more. Now they're just broken for parts - the disposable car has arrived very quietly.

Anyone still wonder why I've totally lost interest in this pointless and very financially unrewarding task? Although the grass is always greener, there must be a better way to spend your day than this unending grief.
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - stuartl
I used to own a seven-esque kit car that had the good old crossflow engine.

When I lost patience trying to get the twin weber 40's to balance and it ran terribly I called a mobile tuning guy and spoke to his wife to make the appointment.

I tried to explain what the car was and what car the engine originated from, saying something like........"If he is just going to plug the car in to a laptop he'll have problems as the engine is older than I am."

"That's OK" she said, "he's been doing this for 30 years."

Boy did this guy know his stuff! He knew the valve clearances from memory and had the fault diagnosed in 10 minutes. Needless to say I have rarely bothered getting my hands dirty since but guys like this are hard to find.
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - nortones2
That was an entertaining, but eventually depressing commentary on the trade, Screwloose. Why are we surprised the kids do not grasp that fruitful diagnosis depends on understanding the system being checked? Because, perhaps, for the main dealers it is more profitable in the short term to apply the most expensive band-aid to the problem, rather than intelligently look for leaks etc! Hence the SEP outcome? So, its not that the tech is stoopid, more that the company ethos is to con the mug while you may?
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - yorkiebar
You may remember when "crypton" tuning was famous and the machines were everywhere so they could fleece you, I mean service and tune your car for power and economy.

In fairness the machines were good (an early form of diagnostics; ish) but as always they were only as good as the operators. Modern diagnostics is exactly the same in that respect.

A good understanding of the engine and its components, and what does what, and what causes what, is essential if diagnostic work is to be of use and help. A youngster/older mech without sufficient understanding to be able to say what part(s) of the engine is/are likely to be casuing the problem is not going to be any better with the diagnostic tools than without.

e.g. if you cant understand what a leak in a pipe can do, or a poor connection, or odd voltage outputs from alternator etc, then you have no chance of working out what the codes will be saying.

In my area of the country there are 1 or 2 proper specialists who are taking on the work as screwloose describes. Including main dealers. In fact they are a major source of the work. Its easier (and cheaper because of equipment and training costs and labour quality) for them to subcontract the diagnosis work out and act on the information given than it is for them to do it all!

The future? Hmmm, not looking good really !
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - rtj70
I have had at least 3 faults needing a good VW technician to fix. All three eventually fixed by the same technician....

Squeaky seat in Golf GTI 1.8T - he took the cloth off and removed a piece of plastic (easy really).

Passat 1.8T Sport (2000): Wind noise around passenger car. Took to supplying garage and they tried many fixed and eventually gave in. Took to another VW dealer and "Chris" had a plan (and could hear the wind noise) and sounded good. Booked in and not fixed. And then not fixed the next time. To cut a long story short I asked if he'd done what he suggested and he'd not worked on the car. One more chance and fixed - hole in driver side mirror.

Same Passat 1.8T Sport: Took to original dealer after airbag light comes on.... they replace the slip-ring and it goes wrong straight away. They have a few more goes but assure me the airbags (all 6) will not fire at all.... so the car is great in an accident.

Go to the second VW dealer again.... and they replace the slip-ring... then part of the wiring loom. Each time the light came on when leaving their car park! Leave with "Chris" to drive and he strips it back and goes on a hunch - another 2000 Passat had a wiring loom problem in the driver footwell and he bypasses one wire. Fixed for as long as I have the car.... wonder if it was the pollen filter leak now...!!!?



And when I first got the Passat 1.8T the turbo was noisy and the supplier said it was the gearbox.... that was replaced followed by the turbo....! I was right they were wrong.

So dealers are making lots of money through diagnostics.
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - doctorchris
I find that the cumulative wealth of knowledge on motoring forums is very useful when diagnosing faults.
The technical section of this site is very good especially if the search facility is used.
For our 2 Pandas and 1 Cinquecento I find www.fiatforum.com very informative.
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - ForumNeedsModerating
Just picking up on one aspect of this (very) interesting discussion - that of diagnostics.

I've had reason to use (or have my car interrogated by) a CAN-bus diagnostic recently. The guy doing it was an accomplished owner-technician of a respected 'VAG' indie specialist. He was very au fait with the various software sets used to gather/interpret results - in fact he tried 2 or 3 different software 'suites' before he found the best match - or most lucid sounding fault descriptions.

My point is, why on earth isn't there some enterprising company out there providing a remote diagnostic service to garages? I work remotely (hundreds of miles) from servers that I update with new software I make, diagnose existing/emergent faults with, & generally maintain - and have been for about 12 years now. Most garages have (or can easily get) a broadband connection & many already use laptops - why not a remote diagnostic service that runs from a car CAN-bus connector to a USB/serial/parallel port on laptop to the web-based diagnostic site (with access & menus to the latest & most appropriate - even historical - diagnostic codes & fault descriptors) ?
Out goes the necessity for local hardware & the necessity to buy the latest software/diagnostic updates etc., for the price of a subscription. It doesn't obviate the need for skilled users/mechanics of course, but would level the playing field for the smaller independent.

A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - yorkiebar
Woodbines, that sounds a very good idea.

1st step though, would be to get a dtc reader that will connect to and "talk" to every car! Even though they all now have the same connection most garages will have a range of 3 or 4 or moere different diagnostic tools just to connect to the car.

Im not enough of a connections/languages/computer expert to be able to tell you why 1 tool will connect and 1 will not. But until you can get a proper standard in place then i imagine it would be very difficult to offer any software and support that would be worth paying for.

The next problem though, is actually understanding what the car is teling you !

But I do like the idea!
A question for Screwloose & other 'old-time' mechs - Screwloose

To some extent it's already been done. TRW do the "id" system; the laptop-based remnants of Lucas' stillborn Diag3000 unit.

With a bluetooth interface and a wireless laptop it should have been a winner; but it wasn't well liked, had limited coverage, sank without trace and I don't know anyone who still uses it.

The problem for OE parts suppliers in this field is the question of software licences and IP rights. While the Chinese happily blag the entire diagnostic software from the manufacturer's tool without a second thought, OE suppliers don't want to upset their major customers and must pay royalties - making their tools totally uncompetitive against the unlicensed competition.

Magnetti Marelli Workshop Technology recently just abandoned all their loyal customers and pulled out of this country after finding that they couldn't compete with a flood of cheap Chinese rubbish, loaded with half-adapted stolen software, like the "Launch X-431...!" This move was not good news to those who had just spent over £10,000 with them.....

Such are the pitfalls of getting involved with the diagnostics nightmare - and why it's really galling when customers whinge about charging "just to find out what's wrong?" as though it's an easy, unimportant and cost-free part of the repair.