If you have the time, I would appeal on principle, purely because it will cost them to process your appeal and make the camera operation that little bit less profitable. (In the same vein, I always pay my Con Charge in cash at a Pay Point rather than by text, because TfL get less money this way).
I have only ever got clocked once in a bus lane, 2 minutes before the the hours of operation ended. I appealed and was initialy delighted when my number plate couldn't be read on the CCTV because of glare. My amusement was short-lived - by a tweak of his knob the jobsworth made my plate clearly visible :-(
|
I appealed and was initialy delighted when my number platecouldn't be read on the CCTV because of glare. My amusement was short-lived - by a tweak of his knob the jobsworth made my plate clearly visible :-(
I suspect a lot of them tweak like that. Goes with the territory!!
VBR MD
|
|
|
|
>>Its not as if your good lady injured anyone so £400 is an extreme penalty for a pretty minor offence.
Indeed, like most low-level motoring-related 'crimes', they have no victim.
|
>>like most low-level motoring-related 'crimes' they have no victim.
The victims are the bus passengers delayed by the car being in the bus lane.
|
The victims are the bus passengers delayed by the car being in the bus lane.
And if the bus lane is empty? What if it's a 24 hour bus lane in the middle of the night, and there's one bus per hour?
I love how CCTV was installed 'for our security and safety', yet has now been turned against the very people it was meant to protect.
This automated/remote enforcement is also having a detrimental effect on traffic because I, and I imagine many others are keeping well clear of bus lanes at all times, no matter if they're 24 hour or not, simply because we don't want a £120 fine for the cardinal sin of missing or misreading the signs which state the hours of operation, in tiny lettering. By the time you've read the sign, a fine could be in the post.
|
Maybe the bus lane in this instance wasn't clearly marked, but the very few in this area are unmistakable. The lane is marked and there is a plethora of signage. Photos might help in an appeal if the lane isn't clear. DfT material:
"Bus lanes are separated from the main carriageway by a marking to diagram 1049. The width of these markings is either 250 or 300mm depending on the site conditions. The start of the bus lane is marked with diagram 1010 at the same width as 1049, and laid at a taper no sharper than 1:10.
The road marking 'BUS LANE' to diagram 1048 should appear at the commencement of the bus lane and at intervals not exceeding 300 metres along uninterrupted lengths of the lane. It should also be used where the bus lane continues after a junction.
The deflection arrows to diagram 1014 should be placed at two positions (15m and 30m) upstream of the taper.
When the bus lane passes a junction with a major left turn into a side road, the boundary line of the bus lane should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010. This should commence 30m in advance of the junction. The broken line should be accompanied by the advisory direction arrow (diagram 1050) varied to show a left turn.
At other junctions, the boundary line (diagram 1049) marking should be terminated approximately 10m before the junction and recommence beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010."
|
Hi nortones2,
When the bus lane passes a junction with a major left turn into a side road the boundary line of the bus lane should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010. This should commence 30m in advance of the junction. The broken line should be accompanied by the advisory direction arrow (diagram 1050) varied to show a left turn.
Please can you give me a link to where you found this (presumably on the dft site, I couldn't find it)? This is very interesting. I visited the scene of the "crime" today, and the bus lane (precisely the bit where the camera is aimed) doesn't end until about 20m ahead of traffic lights controlling a "major" juinction, a left filter into Brixton Road (A23) - I paced it out. Therefore it strikes me that the lane is illegal by this definition!
Even if not, the siting of the camera is cynical in the extreme, just designed to catch you out - just before it there's a pedestrian crossing where it appears the bus lane ends, only for there to be another 10m or so added to it after the zig-zag lines end, where there is a bus stop. You really have to have your wits about you to tell that there's a bus lane here.
Thanks!
|
|
It's ok, I found the source of this information on the dft site. Thus armed, I am convinced that the bus lane contravenes these regulations, and I am going to try appealing against ALL the fines. The pink fluffy dice can't get away with this!!!
|
just drive a transit, put gaffer tape over your number plates, and do as you please, "travellers" have rights you see - the main one is plod is scared of them, and cameras cannot see through gaffer tape
|
|
|
Excellent, Felix.
I had a success in a similar way some time ago. Don't let the sleazeballs get away with it.
Be prepared however to have to state your case more than once, in slightly different terms. They may start by pretending not to understand. Explain again in words of ONE SYLLABLE or even fewer if you can manage it.
|
|
|
|
Good luck: it sounded a bit odd to miss the lane markings so often. There's an information overload these days.
|
>> The victims are the bus passengers delayed by the car being in the bus lane. And if the bus lane is empty? What if it's a 24 hour bus lane in the middle of the night and there's one bus per hour?
An interesting concept, a bus lane that is rolled out in front of every bus. Exactly how would you make that work? Would you have a team of outriders running in front of every bus, or perhaps a more technology based solution with the white lines and signs appearing when the bus is within 500 yards or so. Or more simply keep cars out of bus lanes so the bus can make progress, which is their whole point.
And if it is the middle of the night, is it so hard to stick to the bit of road that isn't a bus lane?
|
i especially like the bus lanes and the traffic light change sequences that give the buses priority and hold all the other traffic up for 10 minutes while the one bus an hour gets through
especially effective on a sunday when the buses dont even run and the lights are still holding up all the other traffic, must do wonders for keeping our wasteful use of petrol and emissions higher than they need be
|
sq
Where is this wonderful juction?
Edited by Pugugly on 09/03/2008 at 21:47
|
What are you doing here AF with your ludicrous propositions?
Go forth and multiply. Create bus passengers.
Somewhere else. In buses in fact. Articulated, empty ones getting in everyone's way.
Faugh!
|
What are you doing here AF with your ludicrous propositions? Go forth and multiply. Create bus passengers.
Gosh you are witty. Isn't it past your bedtime.
|
|
Calm down, calm down, I never started this thread as an anti Bus Lane rant. To be honest if we could have a really good public transport system I'd be all for it, and can put up with some of the inconveniencies it would cause the humble motorist. Like Bus Lanes. What gets my goat is when their enforcement is so obviously designed to catch out the slightly unwary driver (i.e. what happened to SWMBO) rather than the idiots that flagrantly abuse them.
|
Felix,
You're right. I was up in Manchester last week for three days. A City familiar to me once upon a long time ago. I was shuttling between venues, luckily I was giving a lift to two colleagues (also strangers to the place), three pairs of eyes and TT7 was what got us through hopefully points free ! - Nightmare with speed/traffic light bus lane cameras all over the place.
Edited by Pugugly on 09/03/2008 at 22:01
|
To be honest if we could have a really good public transport system I'd be all for it
Well, absolutely. But do we really need to hear from bus passengers who think buses have priority and that's all there is to it, people with cars can just get fined as the buslovers choose?
This is a motoring forum. Bus passengers who are just that, with nothing relevant to say to us, quite simply belong somewhere else. What on earth do the carphounds want here anyway, if not to annoy us?
That one annoyed me all right. Of course it isn't difficult in this context.
|
the bigger picture needs looking at:
Why are there bus lanes in the first place? Presumably to ensure the buses get through bad traffic quickly and encourage more people to use them to prevent congestion.
So why would a bus lane need to operate 'out of hours'? In the old days they were 0700-1000 and then 1600-1900. Why are so many of them 24 hrs a day now?
Are some bus lanes causing undue congestion, whereas if they weren't there the road would flow relatively freely (e.g. o/s Houses of Parliament).
Why aren't motorcycles allowed in them?
The bigger picture aim doesn't seem to be the priority i.e. keeping roads free, however revenue collection does seem to be a priority, when you factor the above and the poster's frustration at a particularly confusing section of a bus lane.
|
This isn't by any chance the bus lane outside the entrance for B&Q at Sutton is it?
If it is, it's been in the news before a couple of years ago because it was designed in such a way that you could either turn into B&Q safely and get fined or avoid the fine by making a dangerous last second maneouvre.
There was a huge row about it in the local press.
|
Is it such a difficult concept for you that someone can be both a motorist and a bus passenger? Or are you only allowed to post here if you have sworn to avoid all other forms of transport.
The relevant point, and I think that it is worth restating, is that the victim of cars using bus lanes is buses and their passengers being delayed.
You yourself agreed that you would use public transport if it was better, and the most often quoted problem with public transport is unreliability, which is caused by delays. So the first step to improving things is to reduce delays, which is best achieved with bus lanes...
|
|
Oh spare me the piety please. A few posts ago I almost thought you had a point. But are you so blind to the fact that the purpose of this particular enforcement camera is so clearly profiteering from motorists? If the camera had been 100m further down the road right in the middle of the bus lane I would have had no complaints - it would then be focusing on those drivers who were DELIBERATELY using it. But in this instance (and the Sutton one by the sound of it) they are clearly a trap. I hope you get caught one day then maybe you'll be less self satisfied. I will lose out far, far more (to the tune of £300) than your bus being delayed by a few seconds - in fact you wouldn't have been delayed at all by the fact that my wife innocently changed lane about 10m before she should have.
|
|
You can't reason with a Livingstonist Felix, even one who claims to be a motorist...
|
|
|
It's ok I found the source of this information on the dft site. Thus armed I am convinced that the bus lane contravenes these regulations and I am going to try appealing against ALL the fines. The pink fluffy dice can't get away with this!!!
Read all the page before sending the letter:
Bus lanes at pedestrian crossings
Not all authorities seem to be aware that bus lane markings are not permitted within the controlled area of a pedestrian crossing. A bus lane must be terminated at the start of the ziz-zags and may pick up again at the end of the zig-zags on the far side of the crossing. If the road surface is coloured for the bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (marked with zig-zags). If a coloured surface has been used for a bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (although not through the crossing itself).
From live maps this is what this lane appears to do. The above paragraph does not suggest there should be additional markings after the crossing.
Edited by daveyjp on 10/03/2008 at 12:14
|
Thanks - too late unfortunately, I thought I'd better send quickly in case I fail and have to take advantage of the special "pay within 14 days" discount (bless 'em!). The main plank of my argument is that the bus lane ends only 20m from the junction which explicitly contradicts one of the paragraphs on the dft site. I don't think there should be a bus lane at all where the camera is aimed. However...
If a coloured surface has been used for a bus lane, this may be continued through the controlled area (although not through the crossing itself).
That's interesting - it's a shame it says "this may be continued" rather than "this should be continued" since while there is a coloured surface before the crossing, there isn't after it. Which I argued was misleading, though I couldn't actually say it's illegal. It's wilfully confusing; as soon as the zig-zags end, there is a bus stop, with yellow lines but no coloured surface, just a short solid white line to show the bus lane continues. Then you're straight into the junction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
