I am frequently confused by the number of diffrent oils pushed by retailers wanting top dollar for them. I have a 20 year old motorcycle the owners manual of which states that
the oil needed is " 20-40w, 0r 20-50" oil which meet or exceed service SE,SF or SG.
I frequently look for oil that meets this (SE,SF,SG) but can never find it, Can any one throw any light on this ?
Could it be that these grading symbols are now no longer in use ?
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Remember to get Motor cycle oil, but after that, with that engine, Halfords 10/40 will be fine.
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As above, a bike oil such as Silkolene / Fuchs of the right grade is best.
Bike oils don't have the same friction modifiers that car oils have, to help avoid clutch slip.
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You'll get a lot of advice re: oils and only to use bike oil. I ran my old YZF750R sports bike on 10/40 Halfords semi-synth car oil for over 40,000 miles and it had the original clutch in it when I sold it. I think if you have a dodgy clutch then car oil will tip the balance, but normally I doubt it will make much difference. The difference is in the wallet, you often get 2 for 1 oil offers at Halfords, which make oil changes a lot cheaper.
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Yeah SE SF SG oils are all obsolete now and no longer made, current grade is presently SL, over the last few years the makers have reduced the amount of phospherous contained in the oil for emission regulations and thats the only significant difference. When your bike was designed SG was probably the current spec` but any subsequently higher grade will do just as well.
Car oils and bike oils DO have differences. If you think about it cars dont have multi-plate wet clutches, starter sprag clutches and the oil doesnt lube the gearbox, on the other hand most bikes dont have cat` converters. These factors and differences are taken into consideration when the oil is designed, formulated and manufactured
Lots of people will say I have used car oil for years and never had a problem.....but this doesnt mean you will........They are like chalk and cheese and I say stick with bike oil.
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I came across this link, in Freds TDI: pics.tdiclub.com/data/3005/2006_02_-_PAO_vs_ESTER....c
It seems to be a piece by Total on motorbike oils, where wet clutches are used, in most. Crucial point seems to be compliance with Japanese JASO MA test, to stop clutch slip, and use of all PAO base, to reduce foaming. Reasoning is given in the Word doc referenced. I know nothing about the detail, but the JASO reference rings a bell! The API classifications given earlier are indeed obsolete as previous poster points out.
Edited by nortones2 on 05/03/2008 at 14:48
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A PS: Total sell motorbike specific oils under the Elf brand. Might be getting a bike in the near future so have to get up to date on oil!
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Most new bikes have catalytic convertors to comply with EU regulations. If I remember right the old Mini used it's engine oil to lube the gearbox, which is how multi-grade oil came about.
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Just use any good oil, not £3.99/5L ones, of the right viscosity. I have never bought specific motorbike oil in years and years of motorcycling, and had no problem. It used to be said that there was some virtue in using "straight" oils - indeed, on old machines, I have done so - however, I really doubt that there's any significant difference except in price. Magnatec is OK, so is GTX. That sort of stuff.
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As far as I'm concerned, regular changes are more important. Especially on a bike that is getting on. I've over 80,000 miles on an R1 complete with it's original clutch and Halfords fully synth is what has gone in most of the time.
ISTR reading somewhere one here that the motorcycle specific oil in halfords, in the dark red containers is the same as the semi-synth car stuff in the green containers.
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ISTR reading somewhere one here that the motorcycle specific oil in halfords in the dark red containers is the same as the semi-synth car stuff in the green containers.
MCN did a report about "motorcycle oils" and "car oils", and, AFAIR, found negligable difference.
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I found this on a website, seems to make sense. I cannot help thinking that a lot of people (including me) are bamboozled by marketing and advertising.
PETROL
SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.
SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.
SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits
SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards
SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over
the life of the oil compared to previous categories.
Note:
All specifications prior to SL are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date SL and SM specifications.
I refuse to believe that my old bikes MUST HAVE the modern oils that cost more per litre than the oils did per gallon.
I suspect that the truth probably is that bike dealers make a PACKET from oil sales and they will not stock the older oils as the profit is a lot less
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PETROL SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge. etc etc
SNIPQUOTE
A quick poke in the Googlies shows this:
www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
Oil's come on since then, too, as you've noted above. So, what's left? "If you put this oil in a wet multi-plate clutch, it'll slip!"? I used to put it in a 2-stroke racer, no problems with clutch slip there, either... that was plain steel-on-steel, unlike my elderly Old Banger, which is over 50, and has the original cork inserts in the clutch - but no problems there, either! I would have no hesitation putting reasonably good modern oil in 'bikes.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 07/03/2008 at 21:17
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My old banger had the clutch swimming in oil in the chaincase, for a time, after it was filled, and before it all ran out again. But it had little in the way of power, and the oil then was pretty gooey. 25 bhp does not tax the clutch. However, it seems that modern engines with poke have caused clutch slip, so aged reminiscence of how things were are not too relevant to modern outputs. Accepting the NTV was not a powerhouse by current standards, but it nevertheless has 50 hp or thereabouts. I think I would seek as cheap an oil as possible that meets JASO MA: but its up to the OP to decide if JASO are making it up, and the clutch slip story is all a conspiracy:)
Edited by nortones2 on 07/03/2008 at 20:29
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its up to the OP to decide if JASO are making it up and the clutch slip story is all a conspiracy:)
It isn't lies and conspiracy, IMO/E it's the spreading od hype and FUD. Seems to work very well indeed!!
Would Honda's GN4 be OK in the OP's m/c, do you think?
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Don't have any info on GN4, but if its a bike oil it might meet JASO MA. Or this :tinyurl.com/28cbwm
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After reading this www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm
I am even more convinced that the Oil Companys/ Bike Dealers are having bikers over ! ( and pocketing loads of cash
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Tests carried out for MCN were on viscosity shear: SFAIK nothing to do with frictional characteristics, and effects on wet clutch engines. "The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) has come up with their own set of performance/quality standards for pertol engines of Japanese origin. For 4-stroke gasoline engines, the JASO T903 standard is used, and is particularly relevant to motorcycle engines. The JASO T903-MA and MA2 standards are approved wet clutch use, and the JASO T903-MB standard is NOT suitable for wet clutch use. For 2-stroke gasoline engines, the JASO M345 (FA, FB, FC) standard is used, and this refers particularly low ash, lubricity, detergency, low smoke and exhaust blocking. These standards, especially JASO-MA and JASO-FC are designed to address oil-requirement issues not addressed by the API service categories." See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil The Elf oil meets API SG, so is without the later friction reducing additives that were a concern not only to Japanese makers, but also BMW who market wet-clutch machines as well as the dry-clutch H-O boxers. Apparently BMW do not permit API SJ or later.
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An ordinary 10w-40 mineral car oil (no friction modifiers) eg bp visco 3000 should be fine. If you want a semi synthetic you will need a bike specific oil.
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Hello Mark,
thanks for your reply, what really annoys me is the fact I can buy
mineral oil (10w40) for £8 a gallon when a bike shop want £8 for litre !
have you had much experience of using car oil in bikes ?
thanks ken
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Always used car oils with my z650 with no problems when I was on a budget.
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