Hi,
I purchased a Ford Focus on the 16th Jan 2008 from a rather large Scottish Motor Dealer. It is a 2006 model, 1.8 TDCI Zetec.
The car started producing excess road noise in the rear right hand side.
I had a local garage check it out and it turns out it has been repaired quite substantially in that area. He did a bit of strip in the inside of the boot and wheel arch. The rear quarter has been replaced and not particularly well by the looks of things.
I am feeling a little foolish now for not noticing some tell tale signs.
My question is what consumer rights do I have here. I have read some of the Scottish Law in relation to purchasing second hand cars but nothing is that specific.
After giving £9k I am annoyed I am the proud owner of a crashed car.
I had fours weeks unlimited warranty on the car (now expired) and am now on the manufactures warranty.
Any advice would be appreciated?
Brian
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 22/02/2008 at 20:14
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If you want to take this further, Brian, then my advice would be to speak to a lawyer, or at least your local trading standards people.
I am not an expert on this, but if you didn't ask, I don't think the dealer was obliged to tell. Provided the car was repaired to an acceptable standard (I know you did say 'not very well by the look of things, but this can be subjective), then there is no reason in law why the dealer should not have sold you the car. They are not obliged to give you the history of a vehicle before you purchase it.
But, as I said, Trading Standards, or a lawyer, will tell you where you stand.
SNIP - speculation as to who the dealer *could* be removed.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/02/2008 at 18:54
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Thanks for the reply,
It is the same as my thinking really.
And indeed, the dealership is one and the same :.)
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You do not need to rely on the manufacturer's warranty alone. Under the latest revision to the UK Sale of Goods Act the seller is deemed accountable/responsible for faults etc. for six months from date of purchase. The 4 week warranty offered is an attempt by the Dealer tor get people to not hold them to their legal obligations.
Suggest either going back to Dealer with this info or do it via Trading Standards or CAB - don't give up.
Good luck
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My first port of call would be the dealer. There is a chance they just won't want the hassle and publicity, and will come to an arrangement with you. If they're not prepared to play ball, then speak to Trading Standards and take legal advice on your best course of action.
In my experience, it is always worth giving someone the chance to put things right on their own first. It also looks good on you (and bad on them) if it gets as far as court.
Cheers
DP
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If it teh cahin I think you are talking about it they have skins like a rhno.
I would ask them to change the car and if they are not forthcoming I would park across the road from the showroom with placards in the window - every Sat & Sun till they give in.
Thye only need to lose 1 or 2 people to make you go away - make sure it is a public road and not private property wher e you park. Sandwich boards and walk up and down the street - you might get the local paper interested.
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If it was repaired to an acceptable standard and they didn't declare it to have never had any repairs I don't think you have much comeback legally. They may be willing to do something if they value their reputation. Bear in mind that the saleman may not have known.
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Sorry to hear about your experiences. What I suggest is you hand back the car with both sets of keys as well as a covering letter to the Dealer Principal at the vending dealership. State that you are formally rejecting the vehicle due to undisclosed vehicle damage not revealed by the dealership at the point of sale.
You should take a witness with you and don't forget to keep a copy of the letter you have written.
Please note that if you have taken out finance on the vehicle, it legally belongs to that company and they should be kept in the loop too. The advice you have been given re involving a lawyer is correct. Give the dealer say 10 working days to resolve the matter otherwise you will escalate the matter to either the Sunday Post or The Judge in the Sunday Mail.
Although the vehicle is still under the Ford warranty, such damage does not refer to any manufacturing defect.
Good Luck.
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Its has never been, nor is it, an offence or a breach of the sale of goods act to sell a second hand or new car that has body work repaired.
If it were the second hand market would be devoid of cars and you would be paying through the nose.
Just use it and forget about it.
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"Just use it and forget about it."
But there is a problem with it....
I had extensive repairs to the front of my Passat which I thought would right it off at only a few years old. I think it cost between £3500 and £4000 to repair it. To straighten/repair some of the chassis the engine had to come out!
If I was spending this sort of money (less actually), even at a dealer, I'd get it checked out by someone like the AA or RAC and have some comeback. Cars will be repaired and be okay but not in this instance it seems.
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holmes is quite correct. You only have three basic get outs:
1) You asked the dealer if it had an accident and they said no you might have a case. In reality, most would say "not that we are aware of" which isn't the same thing.
2) The repair is of such a low standard the car is not fit for purpose. To be honest, it would have to be pretty low in standard. You wouldn't believe what constitues "acceptable" as far as insurance companies and accident repair industry is concerned. Even then you are not entitled to a refund as the dealer has the option to repair.
3) Rely on the goodwill of the dealer.
To be honest, unless it really is terrible or damgerous I wouldn't worry too much. I bet most people reading this are driving around in a car which has had something done to it. Almost any car which has been "prepped" as a used car by a dealer will have had some paint somewhere.
Suggestions like parking it across the road are not helpful unless you are sure you are legally in the right. Otherwise it might be you in court being sued for £500,000 loss of business on a busy Saturday!
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Just a note on the AA and RAC:
The AA and RAC inspections WILL NOT highlight any accident repairs unless they are poorly done. If they did, about 60% of cars would come up as repaired and dealers wouldn't allow them to inspect.
May sound a bit unfair but that is the reality of it.
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SNIP - Can we stop speculating on who the dealer might be please - DD
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/02/2008 at 18:54
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"The AA and RAC inspections WILL NOT highlight any accident repairs unless they are poorly done"
But he says it is poorly done and makes a noise.... that was my point.
Cars of any age can have had repairs including those that you think are brand new. Damage can happen when transporting from the factory.
I have no issue with having a repaired car but would if it had not been done properly.
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Unless the repair is obviously awful, the OP will need an independant, qualified opinion on the quality of the repair. 'Excess road noise' may simply be due to a bit of sound-deadening material not replaced.
Edited by nick on 22/02/2008 at 18:38
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I'm sorry but I suspect most of the answers above are wrong in consumer law.
When you buy a car , you expect if nearly new to have any repairs carried out to the Maker's standards.
If not, then the dealer is required by law to fix it to Maker's standard... or give you back the money.
Simple as that.
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if you buy second hand , and the car is "sold as seen" do you have any comeback if any defects are hidden? or is it up to the buyer to have a blooming good going over of the car, how do you detect repairs that are repainted to match the existing?
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Oh dear. I think the 1st thing to do is to go and see the manager of the garage. You mentioned that they are a large reputable dealer - so I am sure that they will want to redress the situation and keep you as a loyal customer rather than have you spread the gloom.
In my experience, they have a real oppurtunity to say sorry, and refress the sad saga by replacing the car or refund money etc, and preserve their reputation.
Else of course you take it all further.
After all - you get a good car / get good service and often thats that, you get a bad car or suffer bad service and you tell all of your friends. A good reputation & a loyal customer is so easy to lose.
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When you buy a car you expect if nearly new to have any repairs carried out to the Maker's standards. If not then the dealer is required by law to fix it to Maker's standard... or give you back the money.
Oh no they're not.
In law any faults that can be demonstrated to exist on purchase (as this existed on purchase I have ignored the 'deemed to exist' rules) need to be put right, unless they were pointed out to you prior to purchase, or the condition was obvious.
The vendor is required to repair, replace or compensate you for the loss in value.
Whilst the repair has to be to an acceptable standard that standard will be judged based upon the age and value of the vehicle. There is no legal requirement to repair to 'Maker's standard'. If repair or replacement are unreasonable they can compensate you instead - here's £50.
Edited by hxj on 22/02/2008 at 19:15
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SNIP - as already mentioned, lets not speculate who the dealer is.
Your best bet is to see if you can get a friendly traffic police offer to have at the car to see if they think the car is roadworthy. This got them to sit up and take notice when a friend of a friend went back and advised them that the police where now involved. She got her money back.
I wish you the very best of luck with this one
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/02/2008 at 20:55
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I think you are being unfair as at no point did I mention who the dealer was.
May have gave some heavy hints though ; ).
Just keeping the moderators on there toes.
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Give the dealer 10 days to resolve the matter otherwise you will escalate the matter to either the Sunday Post or The Judge in the Sunday Mail.
The papers will not be interested as they make a lot of money with the various dealers that advertise in there papers
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A couple of recurring matters in this thread need comment:
1. No where did the OP describe the original repair as dangerous. Yes, there was criticism of the repair, but this came from a local independent garage. They may not have been a body repairer. Whilst it is not true of all tradesmen, there are a number who will criticise just about any work which they haven't done themselves.
2. The quality of repair which most bodyshops will pass off as acceptable is below what many of us would accept. As an example, my wife had someone run into the back of her car at a roundabout. Her car was collected on behalf of the other driver's insurer, taken to a repair 'factory', and returned four days later. When I examined her car, I did not consider the standard of work acceptable - primer overspray, poor masking etc. The car was picked up again, courtesy car dropped off, and returned three days later. This time, the job was acceptable. 6 months later, I was driving her car: stopped at a set of lights, car behind didn't, and it suffered heavier damage than the previous time. Again, the other driver's insurance undertook to handle the repair. On this occasion, the car went to the bopdyshop of one of our local 'prestige' dealers. Repair was to a high standard, with no cause for criticism. Will I feel obliged to mention this piece of the car's history when I come to trade it in? No, because it was not written off, and it was repaired to an acceptable standard.
On any occasion where i have considered purchasing a used car, I have examined it carefully for evidence of bodywork repair. If I have found anything which was below par, then I would simply walk away.
Edited by drivewell on 22/02/2008 at 22:35
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OP. Is there a fault with the vehicle as a result of the repair? If so the dealer is required to rectify it.
Are you merely miffed (for no particular reason that I can understand) that your new pride and joy appears to have been pranged like most other cars on the road. If so, bad luck.
So, if there is a fault with the vehicle, what is it?
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First of all many thanks to all who have replied.
As I said in my first post, there is in my opinion excess road noise in the car from the Rear Right Hand side. This is what brought my particular attention to that area of the car. It is why i took it to my local garage.
The noise has been noticed by other passengers in the car and in particular when in the back. You would swear the back door was not closed right by the noise the car makes when you get above 30mph. But the noise is not coming from the door.
The repair work carried out is probably to a satisfactory level. Although the local garage I took it to, who are not affiliated to anybody and do not do repair work themselves (but they do have experience in repairs) thought it was a poor finish and showed me why. All cars gets knocks and dents and and I have no problems with that. This is a lot more than that.
There was no soundproofing missing from the car and the back wheels were swapped over just in case it was that.
I was asking for peoples opinions in what they thought and it really just reinforces my own.
I will take the car back to the dealer and see what happens. Personally I think I am looking for a serious bit of goodwill from them if they are to take the car back.
Maybe they will be able to sort it.
Am I annoyed I bought a two year old car with a big repair. Absolutely.
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So if there's a fault with the vehicle, as you describe, you should take it back and (provided they agree that there is a fault) they will repair it.
Best of luck. Let us know what happens.
As ever, put on your best, nicest and smiliest voice when you go in there and you stand a much better chance of a good result.
No angry 'this other garage says you sold me a car with a substandard repair...' attitude.
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I wonder if it would be worth booking it in now for an aa/rac or other brand inspection. May cost you £100-£200 but hopfully will give you peice of mind that repair is ok and does not make car unsafe, or if it does at least you will have the report to go back to the dealer with?
Just an idea?
Cheers
Jlo
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An MOT test would be cheaper and more thorough than anything the AA/RAC do
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have you check the rear wheel bearing? SWMBO's Focus 1 needed new rear bearings at 50k, and it's a common Focus 1 fault.
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I have my doubts an AA/RAC check would find anything. AFAIK they do not use lifts or crawl underneath. The OP mentioned that his local garage had to do a bit of stripping to see the work and again, the AA/RAC/MOT won't strip things down to check.
I well remember a TV documentary of a few years ago where a large, nay huge, workshop of a large, Northern, no longer in existence dealer was repairing "brand new" vehicles, from small resprays, down to major damage prior to putting them on the showroom floor. ISTR the figure of 20-25 percent of their new vehicles had to go through this "rectification" facility.
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I think its essential to get the facts about the work done before taking any further steps: 1. Is the repair work the source of the reported noise, and why? 2. Is the defective work (assuming it is) detrimental to the vehicle safety? 3. Is the standard of work adequate re Fords corrosion warranties? 4. Will it affect the resale value? A competent inspection organisation, not necessarily the motoring organisations mentioned, could be asked to give a price, to investigate and to come to a conclusion. Then decision time on remedies.
Edited by nortones2 on 24/02/2008 at 15:43
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Resolution.
I went to the dealer today and agreed a swap deal with him.
It is costing me £500 to part exchange the car for another one. Three months newer but I lose out with 12000 miles more.
He denys knowing the car was crashed and says it does not show as been written off on checks he carried out, blah blah blah. To be fair to the guy he was alright about it.
I am happy enough with that as i dont think a straight swap was on the cards and it is not a huge amount of money to pay (albeit enough).
Shame about the first one as I was getting 50mpg out of it and it ran lovely other than that.
Fingers crossed for the new one!!! :.)
Thanks again to all those who replied,
Brian
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All in all it sounds like a fairish result. Quick, painless, and no money spent on lawyers. I'm not sure you had to give them £500 though.
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nice to have an amicable resolution. did you go for an identical car.
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Colour and Mileage the only difference.
I agree that I might not have had to pay the money if I had strung it out. I had the option of giving them the car to check it out and to see if anything was wrong.
I dont think they would have found a fault with it.
It was all going to be a bit a hassle in my opinion.
The £500 will be forgotten about in 12 months time!!!!!!!
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Keep an eye open and see if they resell it and how much for. If they do, just for interest, get a mate to have a look at it and get him to specifically ask them if it has had any accident damage.
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Good result. Better than going through the rigmarole of a dispute.
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And who says all dealers are rogues.
I think in the interests of naming and praising we should be told who the dealer is...
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I wont name for fear of any reprisals but if you click on the link below it takes you to their website.
{SNIP! posting a link to their website is the same as naming them, hence it's removal.}
They are now part of a big Scottish Dealarship.
The Terms and Conditions section tells you who that is.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 26/02/2008 at 21:58
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Hi. On a similar note, with some minor differences, I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on what they think my position is.
6 months ago I purchased a 2007 A4 from an Audi dealer. I bought it based on the information on front of me at the time which was that the car had not been involved in an accident. The dealer assured me, they would not sell a car that they suspected had been involved in an accident or that could potentially give trouble. I also got the RAC to do a check on the car before I bought it, and the RAC in their report said it was a structurally sound vehicle with no evidence of significant crash repair.
I was recently involved in an accident which brought that the car had been previously involved in an accident. When I brought it to my local body works shop, the guy there told me that the car had been involved in an accident and had been poorly repaired, and should have been evident to anyone involved in the trade when I was buying the car.
Just wondering what the general consensus is?
Cheers
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I suspect the key is in the wording of the following statements:
"they would not sell a car that they suspected had been involved in an accident"
and
"no evidence of significant crash repair."
In other words, both vague statements with caveats.
I would have expected better of the RAC though.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 15/04/2009 at 00:36
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Cheers for your opinion on this DP.
Just to elaborate a bit more, the rear quarter panel of the car had been packed with fillers and the wishbone had been replaced. When I brought the car to my local guy, he noticed that the replacement part labels were still on the wishbone.
I just wonder would it have been too much for me to expect either Audi or the RAC to have noticed this. In my opinion, this would have constituted significant crash repair, and if the car had been insected by Audi and the RAC to the level i expected, then I thought this should have been spotted.
I am probably a bit biased in my opinion so I was just wondering what the verdict was.
Cheers
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The car started producing excess road noise in the rear right hand side. I had a local garage check it out and it turns out it has been repaired quite substantially in that area. He did a bit of strip in the inside of the boot and wheel arch. The rear quarter has been replaced .........
What feature of the damage and/or repair results in the road noise? Bodywork? Mechanical items? Didn't the local garage suggest a suitable means of reducing the noise to a normal level? The easiest (and possibly the cheapest) solution might be rectification of whatever is wrong.
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What feature of the damage .... >>
L'escargot: Look at the date of the post - Fri 22 Feb 08 15:56 .
When did paddywacx last post on the forum, and do you think he is going to read your question?
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L'escargot: Look at the date of the post - Fri 22 Feb 08 15:56 . When did paddywacx last post on the forum and do you think he is going to read your question?
Us gastropods are renowned for being a bit slow.
:-D
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