Hi,
Can anyone recommend a reliable diesel engine?
It seems everything I read at the moment worries me.
I've a (very) unreliable Ford Focus estate which, over the past 6 months has cost me more than £1,000 to keep on the road and has been off-road at the garage for more than 5 weeks - it's had ECU and fuel injection problems, clogged valves...you name it....
From reading this forum, the 130bhp Mondeo seems dogged with similar problems, ditto the Mazda 6.
I'm after a diesel. It needs to have a big boot for the dogs. It needs to start in the morning without worry.
The Skoda sounds great but I've been warned off them by a Skoda forum because they are quite low to the ground and I go over grassy fields reasonably regularly over the summer.
The Honda Accord sounds ideal - but I'm worried that some suffer low mpg figures (if they go down to the low 30s I could just get the 4x4 I'd love to have but for the consumption!)
Help!!!!
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Don't Skoda do an "Allroader" version of the Octavia estate? Sure I've see one, they stand a bit taller and have all the plastic around the lower body. Like the Volvo and Audi etc.
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Hi,
Yes they do....but at a bit more than the £10k I have to spend!
Thanks though
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The vast majority of diesel engines are reliable, as are the vast majority of cars you can buy today.
Nobody writes on this site or any other "I drove my car into work today and it behaved exactly as I expected", or "I took my car in for a service today and the garage found nothing wrong with it".
Just buy the car you like - the odds are in your favour.
Cheers
DP
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>>From reading this forum, the 130bhp Mondeo seems dogged with similar problems, ditto the Mazda 6.>>
Firstly I dont think your problems are typical of the Focus.
Re the Mondeo, there are vast numbers on the road doing very high mileage the vast majority of which dont have any problems though inevitably there are some problems and people with problems gravitate to a site like this. Google 'TDCi problems' and you find this site, it is not the tip of the iceberg so as someone else recently said people with problems will Google and say "me too".
I am not the only one on here with a TDCi 130 that has done over 125k and drives pretty much as new.
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SNIPQUOTE!Just buy the car you like - the odds are in your favour. Cheers DP
Hear Hear! The difference between the best and the worst used to be enormous. No longer.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 21/02/2008 at 00:45
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Use the various surveys to give youself a guide to reliability, although not always broken down into engine types.
Then see what is said locally about your local dealers.
The Ford diesel issue may not be better or worse than other diesel, but many people who post on this site are unhappy at the response from the maker / local dealer.
Find a maker who seems to happily deal with warranty issues and look for friendly local dealer.
Sounds like you need the VAG PD engine in something with a high ground clearance.
Does the fabia estate have better clearance than the Octavia?.
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I think you have been unlucky. My last 4 cars have all been Diesels, 1x VW, 2x Peugeot, 1x SEAT, all run to about 100,000 miles without engine problems. My current Focus 2.0 tdci had a modified EGR valve fitted by Ford due to a known problem and has not missed a beat since. I have not seen the highways, byways, and hard shoulders littered with dead diesels, I believe the doom described on these forums is not typical.
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My last 4 cars have all been Diesels 1x VW 2x Peugeot 1x SEAT all run to about 100 000 miles without engine problems.
It is surely not unreasonable these days to expect a well cared for unstressed engine used sympathetically to reach 200,000 without problems. Our last 3 petrol engines have.
Time and again I read and hear about expensive diesel problems between 100 and 150,0000 which must more than wipe out any saving on fuel and plugs.
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I was a diesel fan until I started to use this site. I accept that there may be very many common rail variants on the road that haven't caused problems for their owners but following Screwloose's fascinating and ongoing insights into what can go wrong and, more importantly the cost of putting it right (if successful repairs are possible that is) means I'll be giving modern diesels a very wide berth in future.
I've owned a Mazda 323TD from new - it's now 8 years old with 85k miles of trouble free motoring. Haven't had to use main dealer servicing since the 3 year warranty expired and the 9k oil and filter changes cost just £29 (plus a fuel filter every 18k at £35). Still has the original exhaust. Bring back the old-style turbo diesels (if Brussels will allow it).
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This is an emotive subject and having been in the diesel business, I'll go carefully.
Use Google to find a website "Diesel Bob". He repairs diesel fuel systems. See what he has to say about Lucas/Delphi fuel systems.
Then make it your business to find out who supplied the fuel system fitted to your chosen vehicle.
A Skoda with enhanced ground clearance sounds a sensible option in your case.
659.
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Because diesels in general have always had a reputation for reliability, people are more surprised when the do go wrong. Our '95 Passat TDI has done 175,000 miles. It hasn't been without problems but engine-wise it's the most reliable vehicle we've ever had. All our other cars have been petrol ones but our future is diesel!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 20/02/2008 at 10:54
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I think what has happened is that diesels have got rather complex, with good intentions, but the result has been that theres far more to go wrong than there used to be, which has opened diesels up to the greater possibility of failing.
While ive had bad luck with my Rover diesel, the actual problems I have had have been age related ( oil cooler, rusted turbo oil pipe ) and the engine and injection system itself has been very reliable, most likley because it is inherently far simpler than todays CR cars.
I dont think its so much the unreliability of a modern diesel that would put me off ( although they dont seem to have the gain over petrols that they used to in that respect ), but more the trouble that dealers cause either by not being able to rectify or being unwilling to do so without a fight.
My new vehicle will be petrol, mainlybecause I dont do the mileage to justify a diesel, but even then I dont know if I could be persuaded anymore.
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Personally I would runamile from anything built by Delphi or Lucas. They have a long and proven track record of poor engineering. And with ford losing $billions it ain't going to get better.
To ta all cr diesels with the same brush is imo plain stoopid but human. When I look in the diesel car ads there are hundreds of HDi engined cars with nearly 200k or more miles for sale. Yaris diesels droutinely do 150k miles in 3-4 years.
It's not the CR system... it's the quality control and design specs and incompetent servicing...imo.
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Personally I would runamile from anything built by Delphi or Lucas. >>
Doesnt figure.
The Ford / Jaguar units are still at the top of the tree in refinement, performance and efficiency, many cars thus fitted (and even more so vans) do stellar mileages often with very unsympathetic drivers.
I reckon diesel specialists such as the afformentioned Bob dont like these systems simply because of the injector coding which requires investement to be able to handle. Bob says as much by critising the Renault 1.5 for this alone.
Yes, I can understand an indy critisisng a system the needs a dealer to code the injectors as bad design, though I can equally understand the manufacturer supporting its dealer network.
Also Bob signs the praises of the BMW units though does not mentiom the 2.0 CR turbo failures, also not unknown on the 3.0. And yes the 6 cyl 2.5 TD/TDS engines sound great though in use, just like a 4cyl 2.0d CR BMW, a 2.0 TDCi is more refined, more powerful, much more torquey and much much more economical than a 2.5 TDS.
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There are some superbly reliable diesels - made by PSA about 15 years ago. I've just bought a '94 405 GLDT estate for a friend with 130k, FPSH, recent water pump and cambelt, long MoT, five very good tyres for £535. Showroom exterior/interior. It'll run and run, and do 45 mpg on diesel, and run on filtered waste veg oil with no mods, at 40p a litre.
Modern technology isn't all it's cracked up to be...
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>>>> Modern technology isn't all it's cracked up to be...
Except that a CR of the same size will be 50% more powerful, 50% more torquey, much more refined and similar if not better economy.
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"Except that a CR of the same size will be 50% more powerful, 50% more torquey, much more refined and similar if not better economy."
Very true, but I'll wager that far fewer are still working at 15 years old than the XUDs which are still going so well even at 250k. A fault with a CR even at 6-8 years old could be a financial write-off.
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>>A fault with a CR even at 6-8 years old could be a financial write-off.>>
That is what they said about ABS systems 15 or more years ago, FI before that, perhaps hydraulic brakes in the dim and distant past, though the cost to repair and maintain has come down.
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">> Personally I would runamile from anything built by Delphi or Lucas. >> "
I stand by my comments. I run cars until they die of old age. With most systems you can replace an injector yourself taking due care etc.
With programmed injectors, you cannot and it is likely in 10 years time a Ford dealer will charge an exorbitant fee to do it "cos they no longer make those sir" or it cannot be done "sorry mate, last one we did was 5 years ago".
I've had enough experience of cars designed to be dealer only repairs to NEVER EVER buy one... cos if it goes wrong, you are held to ransom or the car is scrap.
The practise is indefensible... and is redolent of the practise of selling icecream with dedicated freezers.
As a consumer, I try to make intelligent judgements.. and programmed injectors are just a money making device for the dealers.. many of whom are technically less than competent.
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Incidently
i am in the process of making a decision on my next new (used) car and i have narrowed it down to
BMW 320DSE, VOLVO S60 D5 OR ACCORD 2.2
all about 03- 04 plate
which is most reliable??
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With those 3 choices, I'd say look at the service history, overall condition and sheaf of bills for replacement parts at that age, rather than the model's reputation.
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I totally agree with that sentiment madf-held to ransom!
I'm not sure that its totally the dealers fault though. Its simply complex technology that requires test equipment. It wouldnt pay for me to have that kind equipment in my owm domestic garage.
I "think" the injectors are calibrated to the cylinder its connected to because of the preciseness of the injection quantities and the multiple injection of fuel per cycle.
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My diesel is fine, Merc c class w reg 130k. Get it serviced on the nose and it needs the usual bits like tyres and brakes. A bit worried about these common rail engines though that are about now.
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" a 2.0 TDCi is more refined, more powerful, much more torquey and much much more economical than a 2.5 TDS."
Cheddar, at idle my old Mondeo TDCi (Euro IV) 130PS sounded like an old transit. So did the demo vehicle. Warmed up and on the move it wasn't noisy and pretty quiet. Not as economic as I would have hoped but okay.
The Mazda6 diesel is much quieter (reliable - who knows) even when started from cold... started it the other day at -4 deg C. People who have been in it think it's petrol. It is so much more refined by a wide margin and revs really well. And despite on paper having higher CO2 emissions it does more MPG too.
So my Mondeo and the demo might be the problem.... But the Mazda6 is in my opinion more refined by far.
Now is it more reliable.... then again I do not pay the bills. I'd have liked a new Mondeo but it would have cost me more when ordering and the new Titanium (not X) was not out yet. and too big.
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Cheddar at idle my old Mondeo TDCi (Euro IV) 130PS sounded like an old transit.
Now - seriously - mine is still at 125k miles probably the most petrol like diesel I have come across in respect of idle, no thrum like you get with PD and older DIs, it just idles steadily like a petrol with just a little diesely tinkle. True a bloke around the corner has newer LX estate and that does not seem so quiet though it also seems neglected and is driven unsympathetically I am sure.
People who have been in it think it's petrol. >>
I once took an ex colleague on a 120 mile ish around trip, it was only on the way back that they we talked about cars and they started avocating the benefits of diesel, found it hard to believe mine was a diesel yet alone one with around 110k on the clock, had a Saab 2.2 TiD and an Ibiza 1.9 TDi in the household.
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"A bit worried about these common rail engines though that are about now."
Here we go again! My usual post! I've been driving Cit diesels for over 20 years. Some have done high mileages (170k+) and 4 have done well over 100k each. In 20 years not one engine has been touched except for usuals (oil changes/filters, cambelts etc) and I have only had to replace about about half a dozen glowplugs. Outside at present sits a 2000 model Xantia HDi Exclusive with about 96k on the clock. As far as I know (we have owned it for 6yrs) it is still on original battery, glowplugs etc and apart from a cambelt and oil, filters etc again the engine remains untouched. It has a fairly carp life - very short commute every day, sometimes a quick blast at weekends and then a 4000 mile tour round France towing a caravan in the summer. Also outside is my second Berlingo HDi - no probs with them, though much lower mileage. (60k ). Son has a C2 - about 60k also - not missed a beat yet.
Now I realise this is a very unrepresentative sample so I had a quick browse of the Citroen and Peugeot technical questions on here - 3 pages of each, about 50 Qs per page, and I can't find one question or complaint about fuel pumps etc on HDis - a couple about rough running which were answered by suggestions about the cat or the MAF thing.
Now these engines have been around for 9 years, there must be tens of thousands of them so surely some would pop up on here if there were significant numbers of problems?
Are there enough problems for us to really worry???
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But PhilW you have not been drivng common rail injection diesel cars for 20 years. So your post has only some value.
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"So your post has only some value."
Agreed, hence the "unrepresentative sample" rider - but 96000 mile common rail, 8 years old, engine never missed a beat - how reliable do you want? And 3 other CRs in the family (and don't forget how unreliable Citroens are anyway;-) )
And there is still the Q - where are all the complaints on HJ board about HDis? Someone with more patience will surely find some or are there none?
(Cue long list!!)
Regards
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I can't find one question or complaint about fuel pumpsetc on HDis - a couple about rough running which were answered by suggestions about the cat or the MAF thing. Now these engines have been around for 9 years there must be tens of thousands of them so surely some would pop up on here if there were significant numbers of problems? Are there enough problems for us to really worry???
Hi Phil
If you go back a few years, you'll find two problems with HDi engines in Citroens.
1. Failure of the high-pressure pump. I had this happen without warning on a 9 month old, less than 10K miles '52' plate Picasso. Rumours were circulating that a problem with the lift pump in the tank was sending steel fragments to the main pump, and this, as I'm sure we are all aware, is the kiss of death to a high pressure common rail pump. Vehicle was recovered 120 miles to my local dealer, who denied that there was a known problem, but interestingly enough, changed the tank lift pump at the same time as replacing the high pressure pump. 6 months later, I had a recall - to replace the lift pump.
2. Failure of the dual mass flywheel - before the life-span implications of DMF's were becoming more common knowledge. Obviously not directly linked to pump failure, but a development which has gone hand in hand with the switch to common rail.
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Hi, can't complain about diesels myself. In the last ten years I have had a Pug406 for 113,000 miles, Vectra 87,000, Renault Laguna 96,000, Toyota Avensis 72,000 and now a Skoda Superb presently at 42,000. All trouble free engine wise. I think the secret with diesels is to use them a lot every day and service them regularly. I also never use cheap oil or fuel, usually only Shell or BP. The Skoda so far seems to be the best of the bunch with acres of room inside, a boot with an echo, excellent ride and great economy with an average of 47-50 mpg. I think it means most cars are inherently reliable these days and if treated correctly they will stay that way for a lond time. Concrete
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Concrete, I can only agree with you concerning the carrying capacity to economy ratio of the Superb - it's (I won't say that). It goes like a train too - I assume you have a 130 PS 1.9.
You have, of course in your generally wise choice of diesel vehicles avoided Lucas/Delphi.
659.
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I would have said Honda but reading some of the reports on here about their ctdi I would go with madf and say Toyota make the most relaible diesels on the market - and some of the cleanest as well if you look at their D-CAT technology.
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I agree with Pendlebury about Toyota's clean diesels..
My Yaris diesel passed its MOT Fast Pass Test with 0.26l/m versus limit of 1.50l/m and zero drift of 0.00l/m.
No doubt someone could advise how relevant those are.
Edit : and the Toyota Owners Club Yaris section is boringly empty of diesel engine problems...
Edited by madf on 22/02/2008 at 10:59
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Not terribly relevant I'm afraid. The MOT smoke test is a rather ham-fisted method of assessing smoke by obscuration rather thn by particle size.
I'm not in the business of playing the numbers game, but it so happens that I've just had my partner's Peugeot 106D tested. This is stone age technology (Bosch VE rotary, single stage injectors, no DPF) and it recordrd 0.18/m on the first pass.
135k miles with no engine attention other than routine maintenance.
659.
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I won't bore the forum with previously-described details of the problems I had with my 2006 Mondeo TDCI, but let's say I won't be buying another diesel car or another Ford.
During one of its many visits to the dealer I was ushered into the workshop to speak to the mechanic who was working on my car (to describe to him the symptoms that I'd had). I asked him when I would get the car back and he said to me, "I don't know, we have some absolute nightmare problems with these" (or words to that effect). On another ocassion the service manager more or less told me that if I wanted a reliable car I should have bought a petrol engined Mondeo.
To say I was 'unlucky' just doesn't cut it with me I'm afraid. I was eventually faced with a £2000+ repair bill because Ford attempted to sidestep their warranty obligation. The intervention of my solicitor soon brought them to their senses though!
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Alarmed at this thread. None of my 22 cars (consective, that is!) and none others that I have ever driven have been diesels Now however I am tempted by the new Hyundai i30 1.60 CRDi diesel. Is this one of the suspect ones?
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>bintang
My opinion:
Find out who makes the fuel injection pump and injectors.
If it's Delphi and Lucas, run several miles.
Otherwise it's Korean:-)
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What about the spate of failures on Kia Sedonas? Is that a Siemens pump?
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The Hyundai Terracan is having an issue with fuel pump failure (or at least in Australia where there are more Terra's is) - I believe it is the same 2.9l lump as in the Sedona?
I also believe it to be a Delphi pump. More info here forum.australia4wd.com/index.php?showtopic=7279&st...0
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Alarmed at this thread. None of my 22 cars (consective that is!) and none others that I have ever driven have been diesels Now however I am tempted by the new Hyundai i30 1.60 CRDi diesel. Is this one of the suspect ones?
There are reliable diesel cars and unreliable ones, there are reliable petrol cars and unreliable ones - some people don't like diesels and like scaremongering - the reports of duff diesels is not the tip of the iceberg, its just the odd failure, just like the odd failures that happen to petrol cars - most problems with cars are not related to the engine, they are electrical - if you want a diesel go ahead and get one, it will be just as reliable as that petrol you thought of getting instead and more economical!
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In defence of the Honda there are a few contributors here with them but I believe only Gordon has had significant problems. Mine is four years old in about a week and still drives like new after 119k. It has averaged 50mpg and has had 2-3 parts replaced (Seat motor, clutch cylinder and exhaust manifold - none of which stopped the car) over and above the wearing parts. There are now about 15 on the fleet and one or two are getting low consumption (heavy feet?) but others experiences are similar to mine - reliable and economical.
It does not have good ground clearance.
If I needed something as big to replace it I would not hesitate to get another.
Last time I looked they were not cheap second hand, even with high mileages so the Skoda would probably be the better bet - but probably not the 2.0, those around me with them say they drink oil - up to a litre per 1000m and it is not cheap!
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>>There are now about 15 on the fleet and one or two are getting low consumption (heavy feet?) but others experiences are similar to mine - reliable and economical.<<
That statement surprises me. Even the Honda dealers claim the ratio is the other way round: they expect 40-41 on a motorway cruise at 70, and anything more is a pleasant surprise. That certainly mirrors my experience over many tanks using decent fuel (95%+ Shell).
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At work we I have driven the company / pool car 2.2 Civic Diesel - 2006 model.
It has done about 22000 miles. I had to go to one of the other sites. Journey was on motorway / a roads - 360 miles round trip - driven between 70-80 mph, with some overtaking going faster. S people in the car. Car does have 18" alloys on though.
Returned about 41 mpg - which for a lightish car, same engine as the Accord, is not brilliant.
My Alfa in similar conditions easily returns as much - usually more approx 43 - 45 mpg.
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We have a Focus 1.8 Zetec TDCi diesel estate, use it to carry the dogs. Also we have a Focus 1.6 Zetec TDCi hatchback. Between them we have done 10s of thousands of miles and not had a single problem with them apart from the well known radio connector problem that was easily fixed by the garage. The engines are 100% reliable, start first time every time and fuel economy is excellent. We use BP ultimate most of the time, the wife fills up with Shell in the estate.
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A guy who I work with has a 2005 Mondeo TDCI. Absolute dog of a motor. Let him down loads of times and dealers have had it for weeks at a time and not fixed it properly. He hates it. I don't think he's ever written about it on the internet though. He wants to get shot as soon as he can afford another car.
One of our technicians has a diesel Lagoona. That's been another very problematic car, he has a tale to tell most weeks. All sorts of things gone wrong with it.
It does seem that people who I know who have diesel cars have problems with the engines, apart from one guy with an old Passat 1.9D. That has been good (I think he has 200k on it and nothing very major gone wrong).
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I agree with Mike torque, my wife & I have had TDCi's for years & for 7 years I was commuting 250miles a day & like mike all have been fantastic but also have run them on BP & BP ultimate as recommended in the hand book. Engines have been fantasic & my 2.0 & 2.2TDCi have worked very hard towing sometimes covering 5000 miles in 3 weeks all over Europe . Don't have a bad word to say. I have friends with state of the art Merc's & BM's & the repair's carried out under warranty are eye watering! mostly electrical or fuel related & the weeks of the road make you wonder why they have them.
Doc
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Doc Are you doing lots of miles in a short time and changing the cars quite frequently (i.e. 2-3 years old)? They are probably OK for that. I would be interested to know how these cars turn out in the long run during more 'normal' use (i.e. not long distance commutes, mainly on motorways). My colleagues Mondeo TDCI is only 3 years old and seems to have been built to last the 3 years and no longer, it really is rubbish and feels older than its years. Designed by accountants I reckon, to be sold wholesale. I can't imagine anyone wanting one of those over a Merc or BM. The new one looks a lot better though, although rather on the large side.
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Engines have been fantasic & my 2.0 & 2.2TDCi have worked very hardtowing sometimes covering 5000 miles in 3 weeks all over Europe . Don't have a bad word to say.
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I think this is another factor in diesel reliability, ir the harder you work them the better they are.
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As someone else has said, all cars are pretty reliable now, and you usually only hear about the problems, eg early Ford Mondeo fuel pump woes. However in the case of the Mondeo, look how many are out there compared to the Japanese equivalents. No wonder Jap cars seem more reliable in this context.
I've had 3 diesels over the last 200K miles, 2 Audis and one Saab. I never had any engine or engine electronics related problems on any of them.
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