pug if you seriously wanted a textbook in english giving an overview these can easily be obtained from malaysia, as much of the education there is done in english
if you really really want to find a source and cannot find one, post on here will try and fin u a source
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It was almost a rhetorical question, I was assuming that the OP was posting from a position of knowledge.
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I've seen the bbc footage of these things standing around outside the court smoking and laughing.
Words cannot convey my feelings towards them and what they represent.
Dig deep into your pockets people cos we'll probably be paying for new idendities and holidays for the misunderstood creatures.
I'm sure the police must get very dissolutioned at finding and nicking bad uns, only to have the most trivial sentences handed down.
And i can only imagine how the family of this poor chap feel.
My heartfelt sympathies go to them.
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Not sure of the age of these offenders, if they're under 17 they'll serve half of their time in prison, the other half on supervision in the community. If they breach they'll go back, for this type of offence there will be close supervision. 48 months is the maximum a young person can serve - unless they get life which would have been unlikely in a manslaughter case.
The days of paid safari trips hare history, these are not child murders so they won't get new identities, only in the imagination of tabloid hacks.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 10/02/2008 at 12:45
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It was almost a rhetorical question I was assuming that the OP was posting from a position of knowledge.
Not really. It's just that I have to go under that bridge twice a day, once very early, like the time these youths, described by the judge as "feral", were out and about, and out of control. That's the motoring element in it. I would rather not be attacked by lethal weapons while going to work.
This is similar to the small bus company in Northampton which has decided it is too dangerous to operate in one estate during Saturday evenings, because there are drunken children throwing stones at buses. The police are too busy to police these areas.
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we are no nearer a solution.
I'm glad someone admits this. I would go further: nothing can be done finally to stop any existing criminals over the age of about 8. For young children, there is hope but everything depends on the parents and even they are often dysfunctional. Corporal punishment (hopefully a last resort) can work up to this age but after that is counter-productive.
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This sort of thing happens much more commonly on the railways with very similar results despite the re-enforced windscreens on modern trains - try looking at the "punishments" given to those who nearly killed the train driver at Kidderminster recently - it's about time that the punishment fits the crime....
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Full story as reported by the BBC is linked below. For now I'll confine myself to asking why the parents were not in the dock as well.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/72347...m
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A large object was thrown at my car last night about 10.45 pm when I was coming north through Ovingdean, opposite some shops on my left, (about a mile up from the south coast and 2 miles east of Brighton) and there was a tremendous bang on the side.
I saw this white-ish irregular object coming at about 3 feet away before it struck. At first it looked as if it would come through the side window but dropped a little to hit the door panel. Funny thing is, there are no marks on the car today. I expected at least a substantial dent.
I think it could have been a half brick or so covered by a a white ball casing and perhaps the springy metal avoided a dent. The bang was well out of proportion for its speed. It could have been quite nasty if it had come through the glass.
I carried on for half a mile before getting out to take a look and did not go back.
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No wonder we see the kids outside court smoking and laughing. Innocent law abiding man gets killed for doing his job. Thug gets x amount of months in summer camp. Where they get as follows.
1. Booze.
2. TV with sky.
3. 3 square meals a day.
4. Drugs.
5. Recreation with all the latest equipment.
Then after few months of good behaviour they get out of summer camp to visit mates and get drunk and do drugs again. Then goes to the same bridge and chucks another concrete block off.
British Laws need to be totally overhauled and something done about these people.
I feel sorry for the police. They must wonder why they even bother.
Edited by bhoy wonder on 10/02/2008 at 20:19
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They used to have proper punishments in the UK such as nasty prisons and long sentences, and hanging. So they aren't radical, they are tried and tested and known to work as retribution for the victims, as a punishment for the wrongdoer and as a deterrent, and society sees justice being done. None of this happens today. The liberal justice experiment is a failure.
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I agree with you on most things there....the only issue I have is that none of the prisons I have been in over the last thirty years ( professionally !) could ever have the word Liberal appearing in a sentence (sorry) describing them...horrid, squalid places, with a smell that lingers.
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Until prisons are made into places that discourage people from returning rather than encouranging people to return then there will be little effective punishment.
There will always be crime, murders, robberies etc; but a big percentage of the offenders could be kept on the straight and narrow if there was sufficient punishment to be afraid of.
So, for smelling, squlid places; good !
And for the record, i was driving my family near bristol, and was hit by a stone dropped from a bridge. There was no time to react, but both me and my wife saw the object on its way. It hit the edge of the bonnet next to the wing, less than 2 inches in front of the screen. The impact was enough to dislodge the side repeater from the wing. Any closer and I doubt if I would have been here to annoy you all. The offenders NEED to be stopped from doing this! And other serious crimes too. The police were as good as they could be, and sought cctv from nearby shopping area as we were able to give them a description (of sorts) of the 3 offenders. They expected the kids to be from the local housing estates and reported that from the amount of debris in the area we were not the only car used as target practice.
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It's great to see the lengths of outrage that people can go into on here.
IMHO these individuals are incredibly stupid, but not evil. If you lock people up for life for stupidity there wouldn't be many of us left around to be the prison officers.
I doubt that there is anyone on here who hasn't done at least one incredibly stupid thing in their lives that may just have killed someone if 'luck' hadn't been on their side. I can think if at least two incidents in my life where slightly different circumstances could have led to devastating results.
As to all the comments regarding 'summer camps' how many have actually been inside such an institution or a prison let alone stayed there for 20 months? I have only spent several hours 'touring' both. Having the sound of a cell door closed and locked behind me by a prison officer was a really weird experience , even though I knew (or at least hoped!) it would be opened in a few seconds.
Take some time out, think about what you have done, and try visiting a prison.
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And there are liberal views too!
I have been saved from big incidents because of luck, yes. But murder (or manslaughter if you want to detune it) deserves full punishment to allow justice to be seen to be done and to prevent others from copying.
I am not liberal, sorry. thankfully I am alive.
Sincere feelings for the family of the deceased too.
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Thank goodness someone remembers the deceased in all this !
There was a cracking programme on R4 tonight, which typically Entertained, Enlightened and Educated all in one go ---- "Law in Action" updated from the previous 2006 production when no doubt the existence of this concept of law and religion wasn't exactly on the front page of any of the red-tops.. Listen Again function will allow you to do what it says.
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It's great to see the lengths of outrage that people can go into on here.
Take some time out think about what you have done and try visiting a prison.
Unfortunately Mr McCourt doesn't have the opportunity to give these things a cheery wave, and tell them its ok, he realised it was only a schoolboy prank.
We all have to accept the consequences of our actions, and this chap deserved a better end to his hard working life, as he was denied that, those responsible should pay the price required.
It wasn't an accident or a prank, it was a dreadful malicious act that had appalling results.
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Pugugly, you, I'm sure are successful, clean, imaginative and live a full life, so prisons don't seem nice, but many of these criminals live in the squalor and funny smells you describe that are in prisons, so it must be relatively acceptable for them.
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I couldn't possibly comment !
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Forget for a minute these were "young"... what would have been the punishment for anyone else doing this?
I do wonder what the legal system uses to differentiate between manslaughter and murder. If I deliberately drove my car into someone and killing them (and knowing the consequences) is that not murder? If I carry a large concrete block onto a bridge and drop onto a vehicle is that not also murder if I am of sound mind and therefore know of the consequences? If not pleading diminished responsibility and with a good brief could I not therefore shoot a lot of people? Not that I am!!
I think this is a tragedy for the family of the deceased (and him of course!) - a hard working man going about his job and prematurely dies. I do think the punishment in this case is too lenient regardless of their age.
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I think that you need to re-read my comment - I never suggested that it was 'OK' - i just object to the 'throw the key away' approach to everything.
I appreciate that your understanding of the facts and circumstances of the case is far superior to mine. I assume that you have read all the Court papers as well as the BBC article.
Presumably the lack of a murder charge, given the obvious 'malicious act', which I have to accept that I missed (but then again I accept that I know far less about the case than you do), was as a result of a liberal conspiracy rather than anything as relevant as a lack of any evidence? I be interested to hear your evidenced based response so maybe you could expand on this?
By way of explanation a family member got involved in a stupid act (no one got physically hurt - but soem people got distressed for a while), was caught and locked up for a long period, he was 18 and a few weeks old when the event took place. His school, where he was a star pupil, were surprised by his involvement.
He went into prison as a typically stupid arrogant daft 18 yr old. Four years later he came out as a nasty, dangerous career crimminal who knew all the local thugs and their bosses. During his sentence he learnt or was taught nothing of any use at all.
That's why I object to prison.
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I don?t understand how some posters think prisons are tough and unbearable. I can speak with experience having served 32 years in prisons from the sixties until the 90s.
In the early years they were Prisons as they should be with the staff ruling with strong discipline and prisoners having to conform despite being in uncomfortable surroundings.
By the time I retired they were a world apart with the PC brigade having taken over.
Just a few figures here. When I joined the total in prison was 29000. And remembering that if the same sentencing regime was in place today it would be well over 100,000.
In 1967 parole was bought in to reduce the population. The population reduced dramatically with this early release but then began to rise in the 70s.
Liberalism continued and by the time I retired it was over 60000 despite most induction?s having a long record before they were finally given a prison sentence.
Prison will work but only with zero tolerance and an unpleasant regime despite what the so called experts like to tell us. Just one example?. Work in prison was compulsory until challenged by human rights. At the end of my service we were bringing contractors in to clean windows and offices.
The prisoners were spending the day mostly in leisure activities or watching football on their colour TVs.. Also the idea that crime was the same in the past today is ridiculous. When I joined a old member of staff told me that when he joined in 1947 the prison population was 11000 at a time when you would go to prison for an offence which would earn you a fine or community service today.
wemyss
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To b e honest, any sentencing should involve some kind of psychological assessment. It doesn't take a genius IQ to work out the consequences of doing something like this, and it's not an accident, meaning its premeditated and sickening. What is wrong with these people?
There was a spate of this on the M3 between J4 and J4a and the pedestrian bridge where it occurred was fully enclosed. The problem is there is another bridge less than a mile up the road - what do you do, fence them all in?
There was a news item this morning about kids who start fires deliberately, dial 999, and then hurl missiles and abuse at the firemen when they turn up. It's the same feckless, mindless mentality that really makes you scared for the future. We did silly stuff as teenagers, of course we did, but nothing that was going to get anyone else injured or killed. Ourselves maybe, but not others.
I would be absolutely devastated if either of my two kids did anything like this. It would mean I had failed as a parent, and that my attempts to instil a basic sense of right and wrong, and to understand the consequences of their actions had been a complete waste of time. I would also fully support the police and courts in whatever action they took however hard it was. Yet I would be willing to bet that many of these parents would take the side of their kids.
Our society has real issues, and even in my early 30's, I can see how things have got significantly worse over the last 10 years or so. Kids today do things that we just wouldn't have dreamed of.
Cheers
DP
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That's why I object to prison.
and the alternative?...anything other than prison, for an oik, is a let off
probation, suspended sentence, community service, fine (never paid), etc = NOTHING to an oik, nothing whatsoever, they consider themsleves to have been let off
whereas as you and I as a motorist are an absolute cashcow
in my area very few offenders commit the crime in reality and when they're 'banged up' our figures improve, when they're not, they get worse... that means innocent members of the public having to have their lives turned around (or even ruined) by the selfishness of the few..because the liberal in society don't believe in prison or proper punishments (and i include in that corporal punishment when appropriate at school, to stop them becoming such oafs in the first place)
i'm all for rehabilitation, BUT, it has to go with punishment as well
walk down any local authority housing esate at 9pm at night anywhere in the country and tell me the social experiments of the 60's/early 70's aren't an abject failure... if you're well off you can make sure you don't live there, if you're poor you've had it...
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The answer is simple. Do the same as they do in America. 3 serious offences and thats it. Life without the possibilty of parole.
How anyone can say that turfing a concrete block off a flyover and killing an innocent driver is no more than a school boy prank is beyond me. Try telling that to his family.
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txj
No disrespect meant in the following.
I suspect the your family member did more than just distress some people for a while. He was in jail for 4 years after all. Not a light sentence.
Regarding your sentence.
"I be interested to hear your evidenced based response so maybe you could expand on this?"
Thugs chuck concrete block off a flyover and kill a man. What more evidence do you need. Or am I missing something.
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I remember Paul Ripley's advice in his excellent safer driving column he used to write for the Telegraph. He suggested doing a mirror check on approaching motorway bridges, and if you see anybody over your lane, change lanes.
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All,
Following a number of representations the thread will now be locked. Any issues contact the Webmaster by e-mail.
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