There have been cases when motorists have been prosecuted for crossing red light to give way to ambulances! It's a very tricky situation and I really don't know what to do in this situation - especially if the red light has cameras. One thing you can do is to move forward to let it pass and then reverse back (and note down the emergency vehicle number as well)
Regarding moving to bus lane, that should be fine. You won't be fined unless you've traveled 20 meters on a bus lane. So, momentary deviation there is ok.
Edited by movilogo on 14/01/2008 at 10:17
|
|
|
If the Police siren is heard on a car heading towards Police HQ, I usually ring and tell them to take the tea cosy off.
Regards
|
|
|
To me that means the police officer getting out of the car to do the directing.
That's the point that it would be useful to have some definitive statement of the law on.
A police car's indicators do have the force of law - "pull over and stop".
Supposing the policeman waves you on or over, but from within his car? Risky to ignore him, risky to jump the lights.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/01/2008 at 12:35
|
|
Unless the car is clearly marked and the occupants are in uniform,you are recommended not to stop immediately but to continue to a Police station or an area with a number of people about.
|
|
I've heard about the increase in impersonation of official Police, I wonder just how serious this problem is ? Is it still very rare or a particular problem in certain areas ? Anybody shed any light ?
|
AFAIK, blue lights and sirens on emergency vehicles do not confer automatic right of way; they are a request to other road users to yield right of way. For example, a police car can run a red light, but the driver is absolultely at fault if doing so results in an accident.
It may seem odd, but it isn't an offence not to move out of the way of a vehicle showing blue lights, but it IS an offence to break the highway code to get out of its way.
|
The law (common, crimimal & traffic) looks like it needs a good dose of sennacot in this whole area.
As I understand it:
- It's not, apparently, an offence to stop a police vehicle passing you if you will commit a traffic offence in so doing . But, if you impede a 'pedestrian' police officer, you can be charged with some sort of obstruction or worse.
- A police officer can 'ask' you (verbally) to cross a red light or similar, but not 'indicate' by blue lights & siren to do so - even though a 'failure to stop' offence will ensue if you're the direct subject of a 'blues & two's'.
- There is a distinction made between the different emergency services - why it it more or less important to move for police, fire or ambulance - why can't a fire officer or ambulance 'ask' you to cross a red light for example?
- The HC is vague & unhelpful in this area - maybe even, ambiguous.
|
- A police officer can 'ask' you (verbally) to cross a red light or similar but not 'indicate' by blue lights & siren to do so - even though a 'failure to stop' offence will ensue if you're the direct subject of a 'blues & two's'.
So that would mean that if the flashing police car behind you at the lights turned on its indicators, you would then become the direct subject, so that would constitute a police instruction to move over, crossing a red light if necessary?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 14/01/2008 at 12:35
|
So that would mean that if the flashing police car behind you at the lights turned on its indicators, you would then become the direct subject, so that would constitute a police instruction to move over, crossing a red light if necessary?
My (hopefully, reasonable) assumption is that if I see/hear police officers in cars or on foot, indicating in some way to me (lights,sirens, verbal commands etc) - even if I'm not their aware of being their direct subject - I'm their subject at that moment & will obey a command or request to co-operate.
|
|
|
|
why can't a fire officer or ambulance 'ask' you to cross a red light for example?
I assume that police officers have far greater 'legal' powers than other emergency service personnel. Surely an ambulance driver has no more legal authority than any other 'regular Joe'? (mind you, they can drive through red lights/exceed the speed limit etc, so maybe they have??)
Edited by OldSock on 14/01/2008 at 11:58
|
|
|
|
AFAIK blue lights and sirens on emergency vehicles do not confer automatic right of way;
I seem to remember my ancient copy of Roadcraft states exactly that.
I did once edge past a red traffic light to allow a 'warbling' police car to get through, but then wondered what would have been the consequence of my causing a collision with other vehicles....
|
"or 6,.. why is the fool in front pulling in..i know i'll overtake... heavens where an earth did that police car SUDDENLY appear from"
I've pulled over for emergency vehicles and had people overtake me, there's not much that can wind me up these days but this still gets me.
There have been a couple of times where I've been aware of an ambulance approaching from behind and have decided that it would be better to continue so as to find a better place to pull over so they can pass more easily. I had spotted it some way off and by the time it caught up to me I had found a nice spot to pull into so they could just zoom past.
I think its harder for ambulances as they tend to be a bit slower, my view is that I want them to be able to pass me a full speed without having to brake and manouver around me (if possible). Of course at other times there's not much you can do and just have to pull over as best you can.
|
|
|
I did once edge past a red traffic light to allow a 'warbling' police car to get through, but then wondered what would have been the consequence of my causing a collision with other vehicles....
Hmm.. I wonder if, in the context of the warbling police car, that your moving across a red light might not be seen (or interpreted) as blameworthy if a collision occured.Even with a 'green light' other road users (that you might have colided with) should only proceed if it is safe to do so - i.e. they should have taken cognizance of the police car & not proceeded - despite 'their' green light?
|
|
Depends - If you hear sirens when driving a Mk 1 Granada or similar, I thought it was the done thing to get it sideways into an industrial estate, smash through some cardboard boxes and instruct your passenger to "lose the shooters" !
|
... I thought it was the done thing to get it sideways into an industrial estate, smash through some cardboard boxes...
Not still touting for 'work' eh, shoespy? ;)
|
When I hear a police car or ambulance coming up behind me I pull over as soon as it is safe and legal.
The cars following me then pull out to pass me and nearly get collected by the ambulance. Happens every time!
And no- I do not do an emergency stop.
|
|
|
I saw a car in Perth sitting at a red light with a fire engine behind with its lights and siren going. The junction had railings at the pavement edge and a long lead in fenced traffic island so the fire engine couldn't go round it. The car just sat there until a fireman jumped down, opened the driver's door and told him to move.
|
All the emergency services are governed by road traffic act exemptions, such as to exceed the speed limit, "if it is safe to do so". Red signals at junctions are treated as give way signs. If all sides stop to give way then the emergency vehicle can proceed, if it does not cause any other vehicle to take evassive action. If any vehicle on blues and twos collides going through red, that driver can be prosecuted. It would appear from your point, that you can be prosecuted for going through red, though it would have to be a bit harsh for this to occur.
If you see an emergency vehicle, slow down, pull over, but keep the flow of traffic going and allow said vehicle to pass along the gap down the middle.
If a traffic refuge is looming stop before the island, and allow enough gap for the approaching vehicle to cut in front of you and pass safely.
Sometimes when approaching from the front, it is good practice to stop in the same way so that the emergency vehicle coming on the opposite carriageway can swerve around the island onto your lane and bypass anyone blocking the road who has stopped by the refuge on their side.
The one thing that holds us up are those that stop immediately in front of us causing us to slow, losing momentum, and those that stop next to a refuge or island.
As for Pedestrian lights, by law, we must stop.
|
As for Pedestrian lights by law we must stop.
A few months back I saw lights at a pedestrian crossing change to red (for the pedestrian to cross) and just as it went to red a high speed police car with sirens on went straight across without slowing. I was surprised. But then again, I've seen a few near misses here (one involving me) over 2 years, whereas I saw none in Thames Valley where I used to live for about 10 years in total.
|
They must have thought they were above the law. As so many of them do. But if they had come unstuck they would be in the do do.
As an emergency driver, it is your call and your license. If it goes wrong the police, fire or ambulance hierarchy drop you like a stone with little support. You're on your own.
I have been with good drivers and bad. Those that read the road at speed and those that drive on a wing and a prayer. In my opinion the police speed too quickly compared with other services, and are level with the traffic. Thus they have little time for error. While fire engines are higher up, go slower and their drivers read the road better. Seeing obstacles in the distance.
I have driven on blues myself and make a judgment call at pedestrian crossings, I slow down, gauge the people at the crossing, ready to stop if they have not seen or heard us and adjust my driving accordingly. I have never seen any emergency vehicle stop at pedestrian lights on red. But collisions do happen . You cannot predict how a pedestrian will act. And that goes with drivers. Experience counts and you get a sixth sense of what might occur.
But to answer your question, the law states that we must stop at red pedestrian lights. Though as we all know rules are bent, to suite a situation.
|
|
Westpig's posting is amusing, and probably very close to the truth. However, I find that a nearby emergency vehicle makes so much noise that it can be hard to think. On one occasion I was crossing a road on foot, when an emergency vehicle came round the corner, turned on its siren, and left me doing a rabbit in headlamps impression. No doubt the crew were angry and considered me an idiot, but I was genuinely unable to think.
I'm surprised HJ has not weighed in to this thread. There have been a number of letters in the Saturday Telegraph, either in or next to his column, from serving and/or ex-serving emergency vehicle drivers. One was an ambulance driver. The advice was NOT to go through a red light to allow the vehicle through. Firstly it is dangerous for you, and secondly you CAN get 3 points on your licence. I have read several cases where someone was fined and given 3 points for allowing going through a red light to allow an emergency vehicle through. My attitude is not to enter a junction on red, because if I am hit by another vehicle, my life is at risk, and even if I am not hurt, the insurers will probably blame me.
However, it is usually possible to SEE the emergency vehicle approaching well before you need to get out of the way, so you can take steps early, and avoid problems. I guess a queue of traffic at a red light is the one exception.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
