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do automatic number plate readers check ALL of a vehicles documentation ? reason i asked a mate of mine is still driving around in his car ( taxed and insured) but the MOT has ran out and he thinks he,s ok , but i did warn him that he may be taking an awful gamble ...is he going to automatically get "nicked "when he passes a ANPR CAMERA ? thanks
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My understanding is it will pick up the lack of MOT what it can't do is say whether you are insured for the vehicle, only the fact that insurance exists for the vehicle.
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More to the point lets just hope your mate doesn't hit anyone whilst driving illegally - with no MOT he is NOT insured and is breaking the law. Even worse he quite clearly knows this and doesn't care. I suggest he spends less time worrying about ANPR cameras and more time sorting out his MOT!
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Why doesn't he just get an MOT? Or does he know the car will fail and it will cost to pass. Which then makes this even worse.
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Not completely true - he will be insured for third party still.
I think the only offence is no MOT, although I may be corrected on this.
The subject was discussed a while back on the forum, doesn't make it ok to drive with no MOT though.
Back to the original question - my understanding is that all MOTs are now electronic and detected by APNR.
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i,l have a word with him tonight and get him to realize the danger he is putting others in and to convince him it isnt worth the risk or the hassle in future if he gets stopped or not
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the danger he is putting others in
He may be putting others in danger if his vehicle's actually unroadworthy, or if he can't concentrate for worrying about the lack of MOT.
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- with no MOT he is NOT insured
He is insured.
and is breaking the law
but he is breaking the law (not endorsable).
Edited by FotheringtonThomas on 10/01/2008 at 13:27
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Whats the worst punishment he could suffer in the UK not very much I bet.
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Whats the worst punishment he could suffer in the UK
Normally £60 fixed penalty. If not dealt with in this manner, max. is £1000.
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If you read the court page in the local rag driving with no mot alone is normally aticking of if it ever gets to court.But whats £60 against the cost of the MOT and raft of repair bills needed to pass.
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I'm not sure if the new on-line MOT actually works yet. When I renewed my Tax the man at the Village Post Office just checked the details on the form. I asked if he'd verified it on line and he said no, they still hadn't got the equipment. With the new style MOT certificate being just a plain sheet of paper (no longer has watermarks, holograms etc) ho many people do you think are driving around with home printed forgeries?
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I suspect, and one of our resident law enforcement professionals may correct me, even if it is possible to get a non database MOT (which I doubt) that someone without an electronic MOT would still get a pull going past an ANPR check and would be at least given a producer.
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Full Chat will no doubt correct me but I am under impression Police ANPR will only check records of DVLA (Vehicles), MIB Insurance, Police National Computor for bad guys vehicles. I understand MOT Computor records not yet linked in to the system.
I confirm that driving without a current MOT does not invalidate third party Insurance. Insurance Companies can not do so. (Section 148 RTA 1988).
No MOT could result in charge also of dangerous vehicle depending if defects are present.
dvd
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I can confirm that police cars can send your number over the radio to 'the computer' and that the computer will know if your MoT is out of date. Whether ANPR technology is involved or not I don't know.
The reason I can confirm this is that I was pulled by what may have been Surrey traffic plod - a marked BMW - on the evening of new year's eve, near Chessington. A 60 quid ticket, no points, and a formal warning that you aren't allowed to drive the car except to a prearranged test. To give the devils their due the coppers looked a bit shamefaced about it. It has certainly been a great nuisance to me.
'Computer says you're nicked'. The future is now, and it's a galloping pain in the bum.
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of course 'the computer' knows if you have an MOT and insurance or not - that's how you can apply for your tax disc on-line these days.
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of course 'the computer' knows if you have an MOT and insurance or not - that's how you can apply for your tax disc on-line these days.
Absolutely. Since I last renewed it on line I should have thought of that. However I didn't know they just went around with an electric eye looking for infractions and pulling you instantly. There's no 'producer' giving you the option of not remembering whether you've got an MoT or not. It's a bang to rights situation, and technically you have to stop driving then and there unless you are literally on your way to the MoT station. As I said, it's not favourite really for the more or less respectable, albeit a bit slobbish, citizen thus pulled.
Of course it's entirely his own fault.
Something else: while they were communing with the computer, the plods indicated that it couldn't find my driving licence. In the end it managed, but if it hadn't been able to perhaps they would have had to actually arrest me, despite my reasoned discourse and sincere assertions. 'Funny things, computers,' I said to the plodette as she scribbled on my bonnet. 'They don't work when you need them to and they work when you need them not to.'
'Tell me about it,' her reply began.
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Interestingly the law hasn't changed, its all been done by "Home Office Circular" as mentioned
in a response to MLC, Officers are sometimes acting, well not exactly unlawfully but certainly outside the spirit of the law, what is certain that if they seize a car which is lawful but the data is wrong there may well be a Human Rights challenge to this soon. What this Government doesn;t or doesn't want to understand is that in running roughshod over Citizens' rights in this country (not just in Motoring stuff) that there will be a day of reckoning at the moment, thankfully the Judiciary still has the power to restore our liberties.
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Can confirm that MOT database not yet directly linked to ANPR. Only if specific intelligence received that vehicle X was being driven without MOT would it flag up on ANPR.
But watch this space its on its way.
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I thought it was on PNC FC ? (I know I've seen statements where Officers have [needlessly] added that they knew that from there )
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not yet directly linked to ANPR. Only if specific intelligence received that vehicle X was being driven without MOT would it flag up on ANPR.
Where on earth could such intelligence have come from in my case Fc? I'm not always being stopped or what used to be known as 'known to police'. I don't drive noticeably either. Perhaps they thought my car looked dirty, or were curious as to whether despite appearances I had been drinking - I think they had watched me stop for wine a couple of minutes before they stopped me, but can't be sure - and sent my number to see if there were any anomalies. But perhaps you are out of date and Surrey (or wherever) traffic plod already have the magic eye in their beemers...
Awful nuisance the whole thing. Necessary for catching worse people than me I suppose, but a nuisance to people no worse than me. Like having a ramrod sewn into the back of your coat.
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Sorry gents. Made the inquiry prior to post with a colleague who was instrumental in setting up the local system and thats what he told me. I have little first hand knowledge of ANPR. Will ask the question again tomorrow.
As I see it, its all to do with databases and their downloads into the ANPR system.
DVLA, VOSA and Experian(?) provide download partial information to PNC. PNC downloads to the ANPR say every 24 hrs. Local intelligence can be downloaded continuously.
Now that information has to provide triggers on ANPR to alert the operators.
The info that will come from DVLA that will trigger is some sort of tax or reg plate transgression. That info is accurate every calendar month as tax discs run out. So DVLA can provide a single database of cars that are not taxed or unregistered (false plates) every month. DVLA have tied taxation up with SORN. Remember its in their interests for revenue generation!
VOSA update PNC with MOT details - i.e. date tested and date of expiry. But not a list of expired MOTs on a daily basis (yet). You don't have to MOT your car if its stored off the road.
Your DVLA and VOSA databases are separate.
Experian provide information, given to them by insurance companies, by tying up registration numbers to names of people named on policies which all now have reg nos. on them. The system is not bright enough to recognise when you are driving a mates car with their permission legally ;-)
So for MOT and insurance you can check the PNC database for information inputted against a specific reg no. There are 3 separate agencies with 3 separate data storing systems downloading data onto PNC. DVLA are providing offending data, the other two are just providing data.
ANPR works by recognising positive data rather than trawling negative data.
Am I making some sort of sense???
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Yes he WILL be picked up by ANPR for no MOT. I speak from experience!
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One more reason to carry vehicle documents in the car at all times!
Bearing in mind that computer systems aren't infallible and 100% up to date, if you are stopped in a routine ANPR check because "the computer says no" and don't have the docs with you at the time, there is no way you can prove you have insurance, MoT, even a driving licence on the spot and you may find yourself or your car spending some time out of circulation. You may feel a little "crushed" at this; your car even more so!
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Bilboman - Are you saying that the law has changed and you no longer have so many days to produce docs as I prefer to keep mine where I know where they are and certainly always thought not advisable to leave them in the car? I do keep my licence in my wallet which not big enough to accomodate a modern mot and ins cert ?
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Another thing about this that I forgot to mention (and this really irritates me):
I had just picked up said car and was taking it home (having bought it without MOT or Tax, I did'nt have trade plates at the time) when I got pulled having been spotted by ANPR for no tax/mot/ins. I pointed out to the copper that I had trade insurance and all my cars - whether taxed or not - get listed on the 'mid update' website. His response was surprising: he said that cars listed on the database under a motor trade policy do not show up on the ANPR equipment in the patrol cars. I remember at the time this MID stuff was coming out, that as motor traders we were all being told we would be fined £5000 for not listing cars on the database! Makes me wonder what the point of it all was then!!
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My vague understanding is than only personally insured cars appear on the MID - company insured, and presumably trade insured cars, may not.
Having changed cars recently I was surprised how long it took, 2 -3 weeks, to update MID even for personal insured vehicles.
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You're car will not automatically be seized. We are not robots and judge each case on its merits.
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MLC,
There's a lot of seizing of cars going on contrary to the Home Office Circulars on this. Its going to start costing Forces money soon. There are a minority of sworn Officers and PCSOs that are making bad decisions without checking facts out.
Sorry - PCSOs around here were authorized to seize under DVLA rules (rather than Insurance which they're not) over the pone authorization, what was not in the recipe for this particular disaster was that some of these are so clueless due to poor training that they couldn't tell the difference between the various Acts' definitions of roads - one clown seized a car from a driveway !
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 10/01/2008 at 18:00
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There were quite a few cases of uninsured cars being seized in the series "Traffic Cops" (episodes on YouTube) by police on anti terrorism patrol. The reasoning is quite simple - ne'er-do-wells rarely insure and MOT cars they drive (often with cloned regs or stolen) and they are therefore more likely to be caught in swoops by ANPR cars. The cars can photograph and verify reg nos at the rate of one per second IIRC.
And the more cars that are stopped overall, then the more innocent or absent-minded drivers will also get stopped, but this really is a case where "the law abiding citizen has nothing to fear", since the episodes showed how the police would check with the insurance company if the driver didn't have the documents. Lie to the police and you'll get arrested - it's the same the world over.
I have always carried all car documents in the car and my licence on my person and can't see any reason not to. What's the problem? If a thief wants to scan, clone or fake documents he's going to do it whether the docs are in the glovebox or in his imagination. Why should the Police give every driver they stop the benefit of the doubt? I am more than happy to show all my documents when properly asked for them and know I will be on my way quickly.
16 year old joyriders (to say nothing of terrorists!) giving a false name and getting off with a "Producer" was always a joke, and unthinkable in other countries. To let that continue in this day and age would have been crazy.
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> You're car will not automatically be seized. We are not robots and judge each case on its
> merits.
I'm pretty certain I've seen cars seized for having no insurance at least twice on these various road war type shows on BBC recently, and in both cases shown, it was later found they had insurance - one poor woman was on her way to a 50th birthday with a cake and a car load of kids, and was left to make her own way there (hitching a lift with someone who also got stopped for having no licence or insurance, which turned out in that case to be true!)
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>>I'm pretty certain I've seen cars seized for having no insurance at least twice on these various road war type shows on BBC recently, and in both cases shown, it was later found they had insurance
..and so am I.
My approach is :-
1.Tax disc. When I get a new one I immediately selloptape it alongside the existing one
so am always displaying a current disk
2. Insurance. I carry a photocopy folded in my wallet, so the ( big) company can always be called for confirmation. For small companies this is may only work during office hours.
( a reminder to me - need copy of offsprings' cars that I frequently drive)
3. MoT. I will take my chance they cannot locate it cos it is £60 at worse ( I guess you can appeal).
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I recently borrowed a car from a garage when my car was in for its cambelt - this was a p/ex car that the garage had recently bought. When I asked about the MID, he said that they have two weeks to get it on the database.
I know that one of our company cars was not on the database due to a mistake by our insurers, now rectified. So it does seem to work rather well!
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A friend of mine was stopped by the police a while back and asked whether he had any of his documents with him.
He prompty opened the glovebox and produced everything, including the V5.
The police told him off for keeping his documents in the car, particulary the V5!
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Whilst all personal insurance policies may have registration numbers on them, fleet, trade and other general policies do not.
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SuperBuyer, the garage is correct (amazing to find a garage who actually know the MID rules!). The time limit is 14 days.
Note, however, a garage only need add a car to the MID if it is to be driven on the road under its own plates and tax. A car which is stock and will not be driven on a public road (whether taxed or not) or will only be driven on trade plates does not need to be added.
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I heard an article on Ewan Yours (Radio 4) about Traffic Cops in the Liverpool / Merseyside area.
I recall that they described the Traffic Car as 'bristling with cameras'; and that the Cops driving the Traffic Car did not actually have to 'target' a 'suspect' vehicle, rather that the cameras would automatically scan passing & parked vehicle number-plates and set off an alarm if the the Trafic Cop didn't respond.
The number-plate was automatically checked against several data-bases: Insurance, Road-Tax, other criminal activity. However, MOT certificate was not mentioned.
I recently drove round for a few days in a car with a failed MOT. The MOT had failed on one point only (front passenger seat a bit floppy). I didn't get stopped and I don't feel guilty: but would have been annoyed to get a £60 fine!
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"The police told him off for keeping his documents in the car, particulary the V5!"
Don't normally have to produce the V5 except when selling it. And when travelling abroad, of course, as other countries insist on all documents being carried. Oh but then they have ID cards and we don't. Which in turn means....
It strikes me that if the system is so clever, instead of the police asking us for insurance details when stopped, we should be asking them!
Imagine this exchange at a motorway service area:
"Excuse me, constable, if you've got a minute, I wonder if you could have a quick look and tell me when my insurance comes up for renewal. I thought it was the 12th, but my wife swears it's the 9th..."
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