In that case, the police themselves should be prosecuted. Most of the Volvos (in Scotland anyway) were allegedly fitted with devices that let the engines run (so as not to flattten batteries with strobe etc lights on). The keys can be taken out of the ignition, but if anyone attempts to move the car, the engine stops as soon as the clutch pedal is pressed.
But I must say, in this case, the driver would have been better listening to advice - it couldn't have beent all that cold anyway - coldest temp in Manchester has been only minus 6 - in Scotland, that's still warm enough to have a barbie!
Edited by grumpyscot on 28/12/2007 at 16:08
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"10-1 he also said "I pay your wages you know"
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"And I dream Im on vacation - cos I like the way that sounds -"
How about this for a dream, Plod around here are paying my final salary pension, because its the same fund ;)
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Just out of curiousity - Does this law apply if the vehicle is on your drive ? I only ask because, being congenitally lazy, my habit is to stand in the shelter of my garage door drinking tea ( and having a crafty fag ! ) while my car defrosts ?
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Does this law apply if the vehicle is on your drive?
I suspect it doesn't, but it's not an offence I've come across before. I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the Town and Police Clauses Act (or whatever it's called).
The crafty fag is, of course, an offence.
No doubt he'd be the first to complain if his car was nicked in these circs and the police pointed out he'd been daft.
Edited by GroovyMucker on 28/12/2007 at 16:25
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The Merc you mean?
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And I dream Im on vacation - cos I like the way that sounds -
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Does this law apply if the vehicle is on your drive ?
In England, Wales and Northern Ireland it's an offence to leave a vehicle unattended on the public highway with the engine running.
In Scotland that's still on offence but there's an additional offence covering all property brought in by the Scottish Executive.
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I've been driving for more than 40 years and leaving a vehicle unattended with the engine running has always been an offence.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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suprised it ran for 40 years, didnt it run out of fuel?
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And I dream Im on vacation - cos I like the way that sounds -
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Reading the quoted comments from the article the guy sounds like an obnoxious and stuck up twerp. Sounds like he failed the attitude test big time.
Kinda ironic when the police were trying to help him by offering some advice and he ends up getting a fine. His excuse of it being ok becuase the car was secure is lame.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 28/12/2007 at 20:19
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From the way the paper got him dressed up like a complete ninny for the photo, I suspect he might have failed the attitude test with them too. I imagine he thought "The national press are covering my plight - I'll really stick one on plod now...."
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But the poor little lamb looks really cold.
Edited by mss1tw on 28/12/2007 at 17:34
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I imagine he thought
I am not sure thought is his strongest attribute.
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And I dream Im on vacation - cos I like the way that sounds -
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Quoted as saying 'he was commiting a crime'....
If so, think I'd ask which crime.
Commiting a Road Traffic Offence, maybe, but not a crime!!
DVD, or PU, will correct my error, if I've made one.
But helpful, polite a friendly advice from the officers may well have been the intention - a stroppy member of the public, may have caused the fixed penalty to be applied!
VB
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I clearly mean that that has been the law..:-)
Incidentally, about five years ago a pal had his Focus pinched from his driveway one morning after leaving it with the engine running to warm the car up.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Quitting has been a road traffic offence for as long as I remember.
"It's not possible to defrost your car and sit inside it because it's too cold and I think they don't take that into consideration."
I seriously hope he's been misquoted as that is the stupidest comment I've heard in years.
"This fine means that I'm paying stealth charges even though my car was secured and locked. There was no way of stealing it. "
....and what's that rubbish about ? The money goes to the Treasury by the time it gets there most of its been swallowed up in process costs....must have been a slow news day.
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Interesting about the difference in laws between England and Scotland. I live in Scotland and my next door neighbour is in the plod but he often leaves his car running on his driveway to defrost in the morning ergo it can't be a crime can it? If plod does it it must be OK? Would that stand up in court as an excuse?
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His driveway is probably not part of the Highway.
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There's another aspect to consider here, which does apply to driveways. Mrs dB was on her way out one morning during the cold snap, and was running the engine as she worked round her car with a scraper. I was working at home that day, and was getting myself established in my upstairs room. As I did so, I became aware of a non-human screaming noise somewhere in the house, but couldn't work out what it was. After Mrs dB had gone, I could still hear the noise and went downstairs to look for it.
After a minute or two, I discovered that it was coming from a carbon monoxide detector - not installed but evidently switched on - in a bag just inside the front door. It can only be that three or four minutes of cold Skoda exhaust had been enough to produce what it took to be a dangerous concentration of CO. So Shoespy's fag smoke may not be the only noxious gas he's inhaling while he waits.
Edited by WillDeBeest on 28/12/2007 at 21:38
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This is a new one on me!
It may be a new one on Zippy123, and on Ken Hardman (or Softieman) who is the subject of the story, and it seems on many others who have commented on the original newspaper web site.
Two other names in the story which I noted:
"Inspector Jo Keay, geographic co-ordinator for Copull "
Jokey, COP pull
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Brilliant news WillDeBeest ! I knew it was the car giving me a cough, not my occasional furtive nicotine lapses. Now, if only I could persuade Mrs SS that Carbon Monoxide from a car exhaust takes on a burnt tobacco sort of smell which sticks to clothes, I'm home and dry I reckon ! ;-) Or I could just finally quit I s'pose, lurking under the garage door is so undignified.
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His driveway is probably not part of the Highway.
But I understood current thinking, allows the law to be applied to any area the public MAY access.
So unless he had secured the premisies, or any means to enter it, there is the possibility that someone could abmit themselves to the property, thus becoming susceptable to any unfortunate occurence.
Did you want an apprentice, PU?
VB
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107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set, unless exempted by paragraph (2).
That's the regulation. A driveway does not form part of a road.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 28/12/2007 at 22:04
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oh and paragraph 2 refers to the Police so their "runlock" equipped cars are exempted.
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But I understood current thinking, allows the law to be applied to any area the public MAY access
That refers to public places such as Pub and Supermarket car parks, not your private driveway unless you have the habit of allowing all and sundry to use your driveway.
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Specifics within different bits of Road Traffic Law refer to "Roads" "Highways" and "Public Places" Definitions within the different bits of law painstakingly made it clear what each of these meant. Case Law further reinforced these definitions in what have been (in the past, pre- New Labour) beautifully crafted and evolved laws.
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Didn't mean it to sound like that - it looks bad when posted. I'm sorry.
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But it sounds like the apprenticeship might still be some way off.
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Obviously a place in UK where all major crime has been solved and our highly paid hugely trained police force with their fantastic gold plated pensions have nothing better to do.
I must move there.
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If you read the article even the journo concedes that there is a problem with cars being left ticking over in such circumstances being nicked which is why they were doing what they did.
Ask a cop recruited in the last twelve months how good their pension is promised (see government definition on that) to be when they finally get to retire.
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I knew about this law but I too am of the opinion that this guy's arrogance got him the ticket rather than the actual offence he committed.
At least he wasnt one of these clowns who dont clear their screens before setting off.
I always make sure all of my windows and mirrors are clear before setting off, even the rear window on my van which is hardly necessary as there are two grilles over it so you cant see much anyway.
Maybe the guy was fed up as it was the first time he had seen a copper in his street for months and the copper nicked him!
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The offence is one of leaving the car "unattended". That is not the same as not being inside it. It has been established that a car is still attended if the driver is close by, eg opening a gate, helping a passenger out, adjusting the engine, inspecting for exhaust damage, testing a puddle for depth, etc.
The point in this case was that the driver was not attending to the car - he was inside the house. Plus of course gross impertinence to the rural police.
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"Obviously a place in UK where all major crime has been solved and our highly paid hugely trained police force with their fantastic gold plated pensions have nothing better to do.
I must move there."
I wondered how long it would be before the embittered arrived moaning about so called 'free' Police pensions. (How much do you pay into YOUR pension fund...£300/month...didn't think so)
Sorry, can't help myself these days.
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I know and to actuall have an Operation! Operation Cold Start - a highly motivated team of crack officers of the law who spy on you as you get ready to go to work - could only happen here and in the former soviet union.
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"Every year we appeal to members of the public not to leave their cars running unattended on cold frosty mornings which are easy pickings for thieves.
"Not only does this practice invalidate your insurance if cars are stolen in this way but there are also offenders looking to steal high powered cars to commit crime, especially at this time of year"
From the article. Maybe doesn't happen in whatever corner of British Utopia you live in but the Police are clearly responding to a problem in theirs.
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I see so called "quitters" leaving their vehicles running very often outside my local cafe/papershop. The thing that intrigues me is that they are always diesel powered, never petrol. I also find it annoying when I am sitting outside enjoying a coffee and a few yards from me some prats car is clattering away spewing out diesel fumes.
Just biding my time till I witness some scroat come along and take one for a run.
Edited by mal on 29/12/2007 at 11:16
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Reading the comments against that story betray a large part of what is wrong with this country. It amazes me the mindless mouth-frothing hatred that a large proportion of the population seem to have for the police force - like the alternative anarchy would be an improvement?
If people weren't so self-righteous and self-important, perhaps we could all live together in a bit more harmony?
But no, the mans first answer to a police officer offering advice is along the lines of 'how dare you question me, who do you think you are?', and the majority of people commenting on it see nothing wrong with this attitude at all.
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Well I am not one of those, he got exactly what he justly deserved!!
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As a cop once said to me - Driver Education at £30.00 a lesson !
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It sounds like this bloke was at the more extreme end of the poor attitude scale, but the attitude behind the comment to PU is pretty awful too. It's not actually illegal to question the behaviour/attitude of a copper and one who think the uniform gives them right to modify attitudes that don't conform to theirs through fines is a disgrace to the force. Brings to mind that Not the Nine OClock News sketch from 20+ years ago with Rowan Atkinson as the racist cop who has pulled the black guy for "looking at me a bit funny" etc..
Respect is a 2 way street.
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Nsar, remember the sketch well it was Griff Rhys Jones that was the bad cop and Rowan was his superior officer telling him off!
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You're absolutely right......a fair cop you might say!
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Isn't a "fair cop" a blonde policewoman?
Edited by Stuartli on 01/01/2008 at 20:13
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If the officers intention is merely to educate the person about the law but the person is completely unwilling to accept it, and the person is indeed breaking the law with no intention of changing their behaviour, what avenue is left to the officer but to issue the ticket they had been trying to avoid?
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On Road Wars the other night a man and woman on drugs, drunk, unemployed, absolute scum, smashed up the house that I provided for them with tax against my wished, and attacked each other with a hammer, went berserk when the Police arrived, taking about five policeman for the man and 3 policewomen for the woman, they were taken away in a police van and ambulance, neighbours had been complaining, and they were released without charge. Yet a man who is trying to go yo work to keep these Labour fanbois in drugs booze and designer baseball hats gets fined £30. That demonstrates what's wrong with the justice system.
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He can still go to Court if he chooses.
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If he was willing to do as he was told...or be smart enough to SAY that he was willing to do as he was told....he'd have been let off with advice
if he is arrogant enough to confront it, when he's breaking a law that our elected parliament has seen fit to put on the statute books...then he can hardly blame anyone other than himself for getting a ticket, by the paid staff put there to enforce the laws set by parliament. If you think someone is going to take notice of a verbal warning, then so be it..if not there's a pen coming out.
it's called 'winding your neck in'..in the same fashion that i would if confronted by a parking warden....even if i do think most of them are an alternative for Inland Revenue staff
most other places in the world he wouldn't have dared question it....why abuse the privilege here?
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Unfortunately, as many commentators on this thread demonstrate, there are people in society who think Policing applies only to the major crimes and that these "low level" (in the eyes of some people) do not justify Police time being spent on them.
These people seem to think they should be allowed to break the law because someone else who in their view has done a "bigger crime" has gone unpunished.
In my view, the complete opposite is the way forward - zero tolerance.
Where is the respect for Parents, respect for Teachers, respect for Police, respect for your Community, respect for Humanity?
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Topic was previously discussed here
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=43004&...f
Fines for idling engines - BobbyG
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I suspect this thread is going off topic and I am not helping but someone mentioned zero tolerance policing.
Zero tolerance policing means prosecuting ALL crimes not just the easy peasy get some dosh off soft target ones.
The only thing that really surprises me about this is a police officer actually getting out of a nice warm car in December. I hope they did a risk assessment first, bit parky out you know.
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"getting out of a nice warm car in December. I hope they did a risk assessment first"
Apparently the "control measure" for this element of the assessment is that they leave the engine running in the Police Station yard for 20 minutes before they get in it so the car's nice and warm and properly defrosted :-)
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Odds on there's a "tea and fag" element in this protocol too ! ;-)
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" On Road Wars the other night a man and woman on drugs, drunk, unemployed, absolute scum, smashed up the house that I provided for them with tax against my wished, and attacked each other with a hammer, went berserk when the Police arrived, taking about five policeman for the man and 3 policewomen for the woman, they were taken away in a police van and ambulance, neighbours had been complaining, and they were released without charge. Yet a man who is trying to go yo work to keep these Labour fanbois in drugs booze and designer baseball hats gets fined £30. That demonstrates what's wrong with the justice system."
Any charges (or lack of them) will have been down to that first line of defence known as CPS.
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ive read the link on the opening message, the man was offered advise from the constable but didnt want to accept it.
Nothing more to be said i dont think
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Well, if I adopt this procedure, ON MY DRIVE then I start the car, get out and lock the car with the other set of keys that I always have on my person and so the security aspect does not apply, presumably - anyway such practices are not really very good for engine longevity, are they?
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Pardon my ignorance, but does the law against "quitting" exist (primarily) to prevent pollution or to prevent car theft or for some other reason?
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Pardon my ignorance but does the law against "quitting" exist (primarily) to prevent pollution or to prevent car theft or for some other reason?
It's only an offence to leave a car unattended with the engine running. You are free to leave the keys in a non-running car if you wish, so obviously theft is not the reason.
You are likewise free to leave the engine running indefinitely (attended or unattended) securely on your own property, so pollution cannot be the reason either.
I suspect the law is simply there because it is there, probably dating from the days of steam cars and lorries where there might be a risk of fire or boiler explosion from an unattended vehicle.
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Thank you for that, Cliff. I cannot find any fault in your logic, so I guess you must be right.
I suppose that I did have this subconscious idea that it was basically a safety thing, but the risk of unattended cars exploding or running away or otherwise endangering the public does seem pretty small.
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He got the fine, not for leaving the engine running, but for not leaving his brain running. An intelligent response, such as "Oh gosh, is it really, officer? I'm so sorry, yes you're right..." etc. would have meant a verbal warning and no fine. Anyone who's ever been stopped by the police knows you have 10 seconds to pass (or fail) the "attitude test". Just like at school.
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Well if I adopt this procedure ON MY DRIVE then I start the car get out and lock the car with the other set of keys that I always have on my person and so the security aspect does not apply presumably -
Security does apply:-
Brick through a window - keys in ignition, car is off in 10 seconds after thief runs in off the road - you are eating your 2nd slice of toast and cup of coffee!
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Well if I adopt this procedure ON MY DRIVE then I start the car get out and lock the car with the other set of keys that I always have on my person and so the security aspect does not apply presumably - anyway such practices are not really very good for engine longevity are they?
Let me know where you live and what car you drive. I'll happily smash a window to gain entry and drive off.
Actually I wouldn't, but that's only because in the unlikely event of me being caught then I'd not work again in my chosen profession, which pays very well indeed. However, there's plenty out there that don't have that deterrent.
Last year my mum drove out of her garage, got of the car to lock it and by the tie she'd turned round the car was being driven away. Fortunately the car was recovered a few hundred yards away. Lost a small amount of cash from her handbag and the credit cards needed replacing, but that was it. However I suspect that if the thief had taken something other than a CityRover she'd not have seen the car again.
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does the law against "quitting" exist (primarily) to prevent pollution or to prevent car theft or for some other reason?
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19980001.htm
The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 1998
"Regulation 98 provides that, except in specified circumstances, the driver of a vehicle must stop the engine when the vehicle is stationary in order to prevent noise. The effect of these Regulations is to amend that provision so as to add the prevention of exhaust emissions as a reason for stopping the engine."
and
The Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (England) Regulations2002 (SI 2002. No 1808) enables local authorities to issue Fixed PenaltyNotices (FPNs) to drivers who commit a ?stationary idling offence?. This offence is committed when a driver allows a vehicle to idle its engine when stationary unless the vehicle is in traffic or its engine is being examined.
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Most cars make more noise when moving than when stationary. It can sometimes be very difficult to hear if a car is running at all when it is stopped.
The regulation quoted makes no mention of "unattended" . So the policeman could have issued a penalty notice even if the driver had been sitting inside the car waiting for the windscreen to clear?
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"Regulation 98 provides that except in specified circumstances the driver of a vehicle must stop the engine when the vehicle is stationary in order to prevent noise. The effect of these Regulations is to amend that provision so as to add the prevention of exhaust emissions as a reason for stopping the engine."
That is absolutely incredible. A modern car idling is virtually inaudible 50 yards away. I know - I've just tried it. A crow flew by, and the noise its wings made flapping was as loud. I could hear the tyre roar on cars driving by a quarter of a mile away.
Noise? I look forward to the
Playing a car audio with the windows down Act 2008
Dogs (Barking) Act 2009
Children playing out of doors Act 2010
Greeting people on the other side of the street Act 2011
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On the subject of leaving a car running, I parked at a supermarket not so long ago, walked to the trolley bay, inserted coin and retrieved trolley and was about to go through the revolving doors when I had one of those panic moments - where you start patting down all your pockets looking for your keys and wallet. Anyway, not only had I left them in the ignition, but I'd left the engine running. And if that wasn't dopey enough I did the exact same thing a few days later except I realised before taking a trolley.
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Why does this law remind me of that joke "It is forbidden to throw stones at this notice" ?
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Ah, Noise and smoke.
Plenty of that today, started in Fiji and New Zealand, and ending in Hawaii at the stroke of midnight local time. Happy polluting New Year.
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"That is absolutely incredible. A modern car idling is virtually inaudible 50 yards away."
Our 1.9D indirect injection Punto sounds like a Panzer (on the Eastern Front) at start up and prolonged tickover warming up on the drive. It puts a satisfying vibration into the drive too, all that`s missing is the clank of tracks ;)
Happy New year to all ;)
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Boringly the Roomster's V5 tells me that tickover it produces 77 Dba. of noise.
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That seems to point to the need for a different law for diesel cars.
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Tyro
50 yards is one thing. I used to live in a terraced house on a main road with shops opposite. Folks thought it was fine even after 11pm to wait, engine idling, under my bedroom window for 10 minutes while their other half nipped in the Chinese and ordered a meal. Pythagoras suggests they were 11 feet from my head. A council official coming along and giving them a £30 fixie would have made my night!!!
Edited by Bromptonaut on 02/01/2008 at 18:47
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>>under my bedroom window<<
Couldn't you have called "Garde l'eau!" and washed their roof?
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