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I haven't had a car with ABS before. Now I have, and have experimented a little in Winter conditions. I don't like it. I wish I could switch it off. Do you like it? Why?
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No. Hateful, at least its switchable on the bike, probably because motorcyclists are more connected with their driving than car drivers are.
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I don't trust it and I don't like it. No doubt it has its uses under some circumstances, but certainly worked very crudely and badly on one of the two occasions I have felt it.
Mind you I've lost adhesion completely in cars in slippery conditions on a few occasions, and that's not much fun either unless you've done it on purpose.
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I`m new to ABS with the current vehicle and was really against it at first, being well aware and able to do cadence braking as an alternative.
What changed my mind was some experiments at emergency braking.
The massive instant retardation possible without skill on greasy roads sold me on it. That said, I know few people who are aware of its attributes and a colleague sailed into the back of someone else without being aware of its existence.
By that I mean the brake pedal was not pressed hard enough to engage the ABS initially, then when it did engage just before rear ending, the reaction was to back off the pedal.
I guess some ice and snow would at least put ABS on the `radar` of people who have no interest in cars and allow it to be discussed (over an office coffee) when they have actually experienced it in operation for the first time.
The ice and snow acting as an educator that the system exists, much like if you were slapped around the face with a wet haddock when having no concept of the meaning or application of the word `fish`.
Edited by oilrag on 17/12/2007 at 07:09
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If you brake too hard on ice and snow you'll probably be in trouble anyway, regardless of whether you've got ABS or not. I personally wouldn't condemn ABS on that basis.
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L\'escargot.
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ABS is as good as useless on ice, there's very little you can do. Snow, packed snow, thick snow, snow and ice, flakey snow, yellow snow all offer something for you to bite into but ice is terryfying.
We've had some snow this weekend and some freezing temperatures, if I'm not sure what's below my wheels I dab the brakes once in a while to see how much grip I've got.
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How many of you ABS hating dinosaurs have actually used ABS in ice and snow under real emergency butt clenching moments?
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< Ulla>
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How many of you ABS hating dinosaurs .............................
Me, And I dislike it. At least without it the car tyres will bite down through the snow and either grip beneath it or build up a bow wave infront of the tyres and slow down that way. With the ABS all the car does is float across the top!!!!
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Yes ABS limitations are in Loose snow and gravel/sand. Both build up a wedge at the front and shorten braking distance. Both however still dont allow you to steer while braking. ABS does.
Abs is not about shorter braking, ABS is about allowing you to steer while you brake.
You can't steer or brake on ice anyway - so the ice/abs argument is a waste of time
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< Ulla>
Edited by Altea Ego on 17/12/2007 at 09:42
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The number of days that we have snow on the roads compared with the number of days that we have wet roads (darn Sarf, that is) makes ABS a winner every time.
Yes it would be nice if we could turn it off, on the one day a year that we have snow (darn Sarf, that is) but we can't. So, on balance we are better of with it than without it.
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Dunno where dahn sarf you live but it was really bad round my way last year. We had snow for TWO days, Worse two *consecutive* days.
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< Ulla>
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Dunno where dahn sarf you live >>
You know where I live - not far fron that tapas restaurant near the Peugeot garage where you had a non-dining experience!
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Yes I know that drbe, I was merely pointing out that West Byfleet is at least 1 day colder than the half way at Hersham. The M25 acts as a thermal screen, keeping you "inner" dwellers warmer than us "outer" dwellers.
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< Ulla>
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On those two days it was irrelevant whether my 320d had ABS or not - it had so little traction in the snow I couldn't get out of my road anyway.
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Dunno where dahn sarf you live but it was really bad round my way last year. We had snow for TWO days Worse two *consecutive* days.
TWO whole days , sir rannulf fiennes must have been carping himself
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ABS? I'm lovin' it. Saved me from calamity a couple of times. Should it be switchable? Hmmm. There are a lot of drivers out there who have enough trouble switching foglights on and off at the right moment. Give them *switchable* 4WD, ABS, ETC, ESR, front passenger airbags, and that's a recipe for disaster. Even clued up, intelligent drivers like us backroomers :-) have occasional lapses and might forget.
Manufacturers should take the lead here and if something is a safety feature, fit it and forget it. ABS plus EBA, on balance, is going to save a lot more lives.
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My point partly. At least Motorrad give you the choice and a big red light to tell you what a fool you are for turning it off.
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The first car I had with ABS was a late 80s Audi and that including an ABS On/Off switch. As said above, Audi considered that in deep fresh snow and on gravel you were better off without ABS becase a locked wheel would pile up the material in front of it which would help stop the car faster. On rare occasions since (long drives on back lanes in snow) I've pulled the ABS fuse for the same effect. On balance though, I think ABS is brilliant and wouldn't like to be without it.
Edited by *Gongfarmer* on 17/12/2007 at 10:23
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Couple of questions -
a) If a car has ABS - is it checked as part of the MOT? (I think that's a yes)
b) If yes to a), if it is not functioning (i.e. fuse removed) would that make the vehicle "unroadworthy" or whatever the term is?
c) if yes to both a) & b) - would that in turn invalidate your insurance if you had an accident?
Personally, I think ABS is great - you just need to get used to keeping the pressure on the pedal once it kicks in - though as said above, not much use on ice.
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a) Yes - only the ABS light on dashboard is checked
b) Yes - most probably MOT failure
c) depends on circumstance
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Re ABS and MOT, see:
www.ukmot.com/3-4.asp#Text_top
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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I had a Rover 800 where the ABS would get confused in snow, and stop working with the warning light on. Switching off and on the ignition reset it OK.
The Yaris has ABS and electronic brake assist: superb in greasy conditions.
RWD BMW 3 series with ABS showed no difference: it was so tail happy I only braked very carefully.
Ice is frightful... light braking with one set of wheels in the gutter if possible helps.. cos there is usually lots of grit ther to give traction..(On a country road I once used the grass verge at 50mph in a Triumph 2.5PI in the 1980s in Scotland when snow was snow.. like 2 metre drifts.
We've had some frosts here but I ran this morning as normal. My experience is it's quite warm frost. :-) Really cold mornings mean I freeze where I don't want to(oooh errr) and it takes a hot shower to warm up. That was -10C in the 1994-5 era where winters were cold.
You southerners are soft.
madf
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>>ABS is about allowing you to steer while you brake.>>
Spot on.
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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If you want to see the usefulness of ABS on ice, go to a test track and do an emergency stop with once side of the car on ice and the other off. With ABS, stop in a nice straight line. Without, the car did a very nice waltzer impersonation.
On sheet ice, brakes don't work, with or without ABS!
Joe
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Who's an "ABS hating dinosaur"? Re-read the original. Sure, in winter conditions it *may* help you steer - but that's all.
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"Sure, in winter conditions it *may* help you steer - but that's all."
That'll ding dang do for me thank you. I'll take any advantage going.
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Really difficult subject if thought about in depth.
Many people have no idea what abs actually is when it is in operation and actually release the brake pedal at the most critical moments. Ask any accident repairer/breakdown/recovery person!
Possibly better off with it than without it on balance, but, steering with abs is still subject to the laws of physics!
Better driving is probably a better idea (anticiaption of hazard rather than panic reaction = abs ). For those people who learnt to drive without abs, they are probably better in an emergency situation on snow/ice than a person who has only ever had abs!
For the average driver its just another feature on the car that lets them drive faster in more (so they think) safety. Progress? Depends!
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Colleague at work couldn't understand why he skidded into a row of cars. Road was covered in ice. "But I've got ABS", he said. Didn't seem to latch on that you actually need contact and friction for any braking system to work!
We rubbed it in by leaving a miniature anchor on his desk!
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Re-read the original.
OK
I haven't had a car with ABS before. Now I have, and have experimented a little in Winter conditions. I don't like it. I wish I could switch it off.
Who's an "ABS hating dinosaur"?
Hmm I dont know - Help me out a bit here
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< Ulla>
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If you really want to disable the ABS, why not simply pull the fuse out?
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If you really want to disable the ABS why not simply pull the fuse out?
You beat me to it.
I had the misfortune of being stuck with a Daewoo Nubira one winter which had the most godawful ABS system I've ever encountered. The merest brush of the brakes on snow would have the pedal pulsing and the car continuing at the same speed. In the end, I pulled the fuse, and discovered the brakes themselves were quite capable of stopping the car without locking up. The ABS system just hadn't been set up correctly.
No issues in any car I've owned since, although no snow/ice experience with the Scenic yet. The Mondeo's brakes were superb in that heavy dump of snow we got last Feb.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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If you really need the help, which seems to be the case, then "I don't like it in winter conditions" does not equate to "I hate ABS". There you are.
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in winter conditions it *may* help you steer - but that's all.
Isn't that the point of ABS?
And isn't the problem that people have unrealistic expectations of ABS, whereas what it will do is assist in limited conditions - but in those conditions it can do what you can't?
Edited by GroovyMucker on 18/12/2007 at 19:16
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ABS is a life saver. It achieves the best stopping distances in the conditions, despite what you may think. I've been impressed how quickly it's stopped the car during the odd 'meeting tractor and trailer on slippery back roads' incident. I'm amazed some people believe they can do a better job than ABS. If you can pump the pedal more than 10 times a second and apply the brakes just as much as they are needed independently on each of the four wheels then fine. Me, I'm just human. What must be realised it does the best job it can. It's not useles on ice - it's simply that cars take an age to stop on ice 'cos there's no friction. Switch it off? You must be daft.
JS
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All these safety aids should be banned. It just prolongs the driving career of bad drivers. If they were not protected by ABS, ESP and airbags etc they would either have to drive better or suffer the consequences. OK there would initially be a bit of collateral damage to their innocent victims but it would all soon settle down. Too many people no longer have any concept of the dangers of of mass + velocity + solid object ! ;-)
Tongue, is of course, a wee bit in cheek but it does strike me that we tend to feel unreasonably safe in modern vehicles and threfore take less responsibility as a result.
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Was in a car with my dad up in Rochdale last year. Came to a mildly slippery junction on a gentle slope and the car would not stop. Kept rolling forward slowly with the ABS hammering away, and we went right across the junction. Fortunately, the one van coming managed to swerve around the front of the car.
I'm aware now and if I'm ever in a similar situation and can't stop, I'll switch off the ignition and cadence brake. The same thing happened on a skid training course, although of course the ABS was switchable on that car. You could always pull a fuse or disconnect a wheel sensor if you're doing a prolonged drive, I suppose
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I'm aware now and if I'm ever in a similar situation and can't stop I'll switch off the ignition and cadence brake.
Even worse - what's going to give you servo assistance after the first few stomps?
The only thing my ABS is good for is cornering whilst braking. I was amazed that I could go from 60 to 20 in what must have been less than 20 yards braking into a sideroad.
I'd never leave even my mechanical system disconnected, and do the upmost to maintain it.
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Mike Farrow
Edited by mfarrow {P} on 18/12/2007 at 21:11
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Mike - cadence braking involves carefully judging the point of maximum efficiency and requires an exceptionally delicate touch. Since the pressure on the brake pedal is extremely light I imagine that servo assistance would last long enough to bring the car to a safe stop, and in fact it might be easier to control the brake force without the servo.
I do know what you mean, though, since I tried stopping the Honda t'other day without the engine running and it took considerable effort and both feet on the brake pedal.
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Mike - cadence braking involves carefully judging the point of maximum efficiency and requires an exceptionally delicate touch.
I think you mean threshold braking. Cadence braking is pumping the brake pedal.
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Mike Farrow
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My mistake. Too much work and too little sleep makes David stoopid. :)
Roll on Christmas!
Cheers,
David.
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SNIPQUOTE!The only thing my ABS is good for is cornering whilst braking.
That is ALL it is for. There may be other pros & cons, but the purpose of ABS is exactly as you describe.
"Stomp 'n' Steer"...
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 20/12/2007 at 18:23
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ABS is a life saver. It achieves the best stopping distances in the conditions
I disagree. I was curious about this and tried it in a safe environment, and on very slippery surfaces I could *always* stop the car in a far shorter distance than with ABS on.
In a straight emergency stop without ABS, you shouldn't be pumping the pedal anyway.
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My VW Transporter is fitted with ASR- Anti Slip Reduction I think it means and there is a button to switch it off. While switched off a large warning light is displayed on the dash
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My Dads has this, I think it's just to stop wheelspin when pulling away, probably if you have a heavy load in the back because they are FWD.
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ABS is a life saver. It achieves the best stopping distances in the conditions
Sorry, but I disagree too. It brakes without allowing the wheels to skid. This is not to be confused as to stopping in the shortest distance possible.
Benefits; it does allow steering to be used whilst braking ( a big no no for the inexperienced under emergency non abs braking), subject to the laws of physics. It may also provide for much better stopping distance in poor road conditions, but can equally provide for much longer stopping distances under certain circumstances.
This is as my earlier comments as to whether its progress or not; it depends who is using it!
But for the person headed in my direction then I would much rather they did have it fitted and working.
As an aside, the inability to stop from any speed when needed, is a sign of travelling too fast for the conditions (this includes on ice at 5mph). But i do sympathise for the involuntary sliding over a junction. old fashioned cadence braking, even with abs fitted, would have been a better option. And yes I have been there!
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Ah, again the usual misconception that locked wheels stop the car better than rolling ones. The whole point of ABS is that it keeps the car at the point just before wheel lock where the coefficient of friction is greater than the coefficient of sliding friction. 4 chanel ABS does this for individual wheels. This is why it gives maximum retardation and allows steering while braking. And what's the point of cadence braking when you've got ABS? Just push the pedal and let the ABS do what it's designed to do.
JS
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>>>>>>>>>>My Dads has this, I think it's just to stop wheelspin when pulling away, probably if you have a heavy load in the back because they are FWD
Wheres the fun in that????!!!
; o )
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A few months back there was a big BMW stuffed into the barriers backwards just off a city roundabout. Bet he wished he had left that switch on to control the wheels... ;)
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A few months back there was a big BMW stuffed into the barriers backwards just off a city roundabout. Bet he wished he had left that switch on to control the wheels... ;)
That would be because it was a BMW - even ABS does not allow you to defeat the laws of physics
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I drive a MINI with ABS+traction control+corner brake control.
I thought I did have an on/off switch
But in any event i would be reluctant to turn it off.
Coming down the A1 one night a little while ago I saw a sign for services. I confess I was probably travelling too fast really because the slip road was amazingly short with a U-turn at the end. so i hold my hand up at any culpability - but fro time to time we all make an error of judgement.
I slammed on and turned the wheel ... and the car followed with absolutely no drama at all except for the tramping through the accelerator pedal.
no matter what system you should take care in ice and snow. I guess if you need to drive in snow you need a 4 x 4.
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I've had ABS since I was 19 and am now 33.
I think it's great, but have more experience of having it than not.
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a 4x4 doesn't stop any better in snow than any other car - all cars have 4 wheel braking.
In fact, since 4x4's tend to be heavier than normal cars, it is likely to stop worse.
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In fact since 4x4's tend to be heavier than normal cars it is likely to stop worse.
What's your reasoning for saying that? Sliding friction between the tyres and the ground is proportional to the weight of the car. Therefore with similar tyres deceleration with locked wheels will have the same potential regardless of the weight of the car. Under normal conditions the brakes will have been designed to give the maximum possible retardation. The type of tyres could have an effect but that is all.
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>> In fact since 4x4's tend to be heavier than normal cars it is likely to >> stop worse. Sliding friction between the tyres and the ground is proportional to the weight
But not between the tyres and solid water.
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>>Sliding friction between the tyres and the ground is proportional to the weight of the car.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=56041&...e
".. notice .. that there isn't a mass term in there - heavy vehicle or light vehicle, the tyre/road friction limited stopping distance is the same."
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=58489&...e
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SNIPQUOTE!What's your reasoning for saying that? Sliding friction between the tyres and the ground is proportional to the weight of the car.
On a dry road.
Not on ice; weight actually reduces friction, becasue it melts a thin layer of ice into water on which you slide. It's the way ice skates work.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 21/12/2007 at 12:46
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weight actually reduces friction becasue it melts a thin layer of ice into water on which you slide. It's the way ice skates work.
And why skaters like sharp skates - more force per unit area. A big fat skater on blunt skates slides as well as a thin one on sharp skates! Same goes for big fat cars and their tyres.
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weight actually reduces friction becasue it melts a thin layer of ice into water on which you slide. It's the way ice skates work.
So, the main influencing factor in such a circumstance isn't weight, it isn't tyre size, but is tyre pressure.
Number_Cruncher
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