Why don't they let LPG cars in the channel tunnel, its so stupid makes me so mad!
Kush
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 13/12/2007 at 22:34
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I would have thought it is because of the risk of explosion from any leaks. It is far more volatile than petrol. I would have thought it quite a reasonable rule.
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LPG will only explode under pressure and if there is a leak then it is very obvious it stinks and white smoke goes everywhere. So if there was a leak they would know about it and not let the car on.
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Just wondering whether the changes in pressure in the tunnel might be something to do with it ?
white smoke goes everywhere.
Harmless or not that would be a disaster in an enclosed train, they had one fire I doubt wether they want to risk even a false alarm, I think you've answered your own question !
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Damn Pugugly is there nothing you don't know?
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Yes - plenty ask my wife !
Oh and I didn't know about the white smoke thing either !
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 13/12/2007 at 22:58
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The pressure makes no difference...the gas is sealed in its own vessel at many times greater than atmospheric pressure.
What's with the white smoke? No idea what that would be.
Personally, I can't see any reason why they are not allowed through the tunnel.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on this?
Oh, and LPG will certainly explode whether its pressurised or not...its just far more violent when under pressure.
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Has the OP asked Eurotunnel for an explanation?
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Am I the OP?
Yes OP = origanal or opening post(er).
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in that case i have not brought this up with eurotunnel i will do tomorrow
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>> Am I the OP? Yes OP = origanal or opening post(er).
>>
"origanal"
Cunning ploy to evede the swearbox?
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Ho Ho!
Hoist with own petard!
Evade!!!!
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LPG is heavier than air and will collect in the low points of the tunnel. Doubt it needs to be under pressure to "explode"; will combust spontaneuosly provided it's mixed with air (oxygen) in right proportions. A leak that produces visible vapour is the equivalent of dripping petrol, something which would be likely to result in denied boarding now.
Having said that I suspect a significant increase in the proportion of cars powered by LPG would prompt a review. Current situation is that risk assesment produces a result requiring a control. As (say) 2% of cars seeking shipment are LPG powered the control measure is to bar them - loss of revenue is acceptable. If 50% of cars seeking shipment were LPG powered then Eurotunnel would find the loss intolerable and would bear the cost of other controls. These might include an examination regime for LPG vehicles or installation of detection/suppression aparatus to deal with LPG spills in the tunnel.
Not a tunnel enthusiast myself. I've been aware of (a) petrol smells and (b) an early descriptio of the tunnel as the longest crematorium in Europe. It's also boring and slow to load, particularly in a 2.3m high car/roofbox combo.
Prefer SeaFrance, the opportunity to leave car and eat, shop observe etc.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 13/12/2007 at 23:08
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I may have mentioned this before; but the whole safety-case for the tunnel was predicated on the low-level use of Halon as a fire suppressant.
Now that CFCs are totally banned; what could they possibly have replaced it with and how are they still able to use the same configuration of mixed vehicle/passenger carriages.
P.S. Can you take caravans through the tunnel? All of them carry LPG bottles - many with very poor quality installations.
[I've never used it myself. I know the man who tested the fire safety equipment - he doesn't use it either......]
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I may have mentioned this before; but the whole safety-case for the tunnel was predicated on the low-level use of Halon as a fire suppressant. Now that CFCs are totally banned; what could they possibly have replaced it with and how are they still able to use the same configuration of mixed vehicle/passenger carriages.
Carbon dioxide will do much the same job; like Halon it is heavier than air and will act as a good fire suppressant. Like Halon it will suffocate you if you don't get out in time, but the alternative is burning to death.
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Like Halon it will suffocate you if you don't get out in time, but the alternative is burning to death.
Nice choice then, would you like to suffocate, sir, or just be nicely roasted.
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Excelent article here in wikipedia about the fire.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_Tunnel_fire
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< Ulla>
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Carbon dioxide will do much the same job; like Halon it is heavier than air and will act as a good fire suppressant. Like Halon it will suffocate you if you don't get out in time but the alternative is burning to death.
That's the crux of my question. Almost uniquely; the whole fire-safety case was based on using metered amounts of Halon on both the vehicles and the passengers.
I seem to recall that the system was intended to raise the Halon level to around 5% v/v, at which point the fire progression was halted, but the passengers remained alive until the train exited the tunnel - theoretically....
CO2 is nowhere near as effective and versatile as Halon; [I've used both on numerous occasions] so my question remains. "How did an operating system safety-case predicated on Halon survive it's demise?" [Yes; I know that they had to suspend the two chief engineers to finally get it signed - by a parachuted-in French Ministry bureaucrat.]
The cover-up over the truck-train fire doesn't fill you with confidence either; the lessons of the European Gateway weren't learned and led directly to the Herald - let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.....
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"Glass?s Guide promotes the benefits of LPG. October 2004
When will LPG vehicles be permitted in the Channel Tunnel?
LPG vehicles have never been banned on safety grounds. The tunnel was first opened for petrol and diesel vehicles and originally permission was not sought for alternatively fuelled vehicles. At the time there were under 3500 LPG vehicles on British roads, but now there are over 100,000 and with France has experiencing a similar rate of growth, an application has been made to the operators for a change in the carriage regulations to allow LPG powered vehicles. We understand that following satisfactory risk assessments the policy is likely to change."
Do not hold your breath :-(
2 Dec 2002 Hansard
Mr. David Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to review the ban on the use of vehicles which use LPG fuel from the Channel Tunnel. [83519]
Reply was
Mr. Jamieson: Eurotunnel's original applications for operating certificates excluded the carriage of LPG and dual-fuelled vehicles. It is for the company to come forward with proposals to extend the range of its services to include these vehicles; Eurotunnel has been keeping its policy under review. If the company does seek to extend the scope of its services to include these vehicles, it will first need the agreement of the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission, acting on the advice of the independent binational Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, to its proposals.
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Doubt it needs to be under pressure to "explode"; will combust spontaneuosly provided it's mixed with air (oxygen) in right proportions.
I don't think it will combust spontaneously in any proportions. It has to be ignited by spark or heat.
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I don't think it will combust spontaneously in any proportions. It has to be ignited by spark or heat.
Thats what I thought too?
LPG has a slightly greater 'explosive range' to petrol, that is the percentage of vapour mixed with air that will explode if ignited; for LPG it is 2 to 10%, for petrol it is approx 1.6 to 6%. But LPG is a gas at room temperature so will instantly vapourise, whereas petrol gives off vapour more slowly.
We did some work for a company that used ethylene oxide gas for sterilisation of equipment; this stuff has an explosive range of 3-100%!
If you Google "ethylene oxide" "explosive range" there are links to: Fuel/Air Explosive, Thermobaric Weapon, etc.
Edited by Rich 9-3 on 14/12/2007 at 12:02
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Cliff, Rich etc
You're right. I realise a source of ignition would be required, though it need only be an electrical spark from the catenary, underfloor auxiliaries on the train or some other stray source.
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A petrol or diesel leak could be contained using an aqueous foam blanket to prevent ingintion, or to extinguish post ignition. A vapour would be difficult to isolate and neutralise, best you could do is evacuate the vapour into the tunnel atmosphere and hope it is diluted sufficiently before ignition.
The thought of filling a carriage, full of families, with carbon dioxide sounds a little redolent of times best forgotten. There are Halon alternatives that are suitable for use in occupied spaces and not subject to the restrictions of the Montreal Protocol.
It is true that caravans can carry bottled gas, but the implication that the set ups are somehow dodgy is not true as the bottles must be isolated at the bottle itself before embarkation.
Although the tunnel is an efficient way of getting to and from France, I personally still prefer to start and finish my trips with a good old ferry ride.
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"Oh and I didn't know about the white smoke thing either ! "
Pugugly for Pope.....
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A couple of years ago there was a loud `boom`a rattle of the windows and looking down the road, a pall of smoke rising about half a mile away.
A few of us walked down there out of curiosity and a detached concrete garage had been totally demolished.
It turned out it had been a fire in the garage and a small camping gas cylinder had exploded.
Scale that up to much bigger, higher pressure LPG tanks in cars on a train...........in a tunnel under the sea.
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petrol will burn as well but petrol will pool and burn
U can take lpg cars through swiss tunnels which are longer and a few dont have any fire protection..I know i been through them with a discovery v8...lpg tanks on a car have a release valve that will vent the gas before it will explode unlike lpg bottles.
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Maybe a problem with the use of supplementary tanks in bi-fuelled cars, which is a security/smuggling/terrorism risk, i.e., main fuel being used and other tank is being used for nefarious purposes.
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A long time ago a truck was going through a small tunnel (more an underpass under a main road) and the regulator on the top of a gas bottle in the back was knocked off when it fell over. The tunnel filled and some time later went "boom".
I can't remember all the details and it was well before computers for googling.
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A lot of underground car parks in France have signs banning lpg vehicles, unless they have some sort of safety valve fitted - don't know how they would ever check though.
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White smoke was a bad description heavy vapour would be a better one.
Kush
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Spilt petrol will pool on the ground and gradually evaporate upwards into the atmosphere. Spilt LPG will stay at ground level because it's heavier than air even when evaporated.
I'm guessing that a petrol spill can be dealt with in any tunnel by ventilation fans but that getting rid of spilt LPG is more complex.
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Like others on here, I too am off the opinion that the shuttle is no way to start a holiday. It lacks the romance, the sense of occasion, the excitment that only a ship (and to some extent an aiport) can bring. Even a booze cruise needs the
However - it has its place. where speed and convenience is required. ( like a quick business trip, or to transport the dogs in vans) .
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< Ulla>
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I'm guessing that ... getting rid of spilt LPG is more complex"
Correct, because LPG gas sinks so its difficult for the ventilation system to extract it. Yes, spilt petrol falls to the ground, but then it evaportes (not that you want any heat source about as it does so!)
As to fire fighting, halon gas isn't completely banned. You and I can't buy halon fire extingusihers any more, but limited use is allowed where no suitable alternative is available (on airfields, for example, and I expect in the Tunnel too).
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Gromit
Thanks for the info. That's answered a question that's been nagging at me for a year or so.
I was aware that the military still possessed Halon systems post-2006 but didn't know of the Tunnel exemption that you refer to until I found this listed as one of the critical uses:-
- for inerting of occupied spaces where flammable liquid release could occur.
So at least their safety-case remains intact.
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LPG can explode when mixed with air in the range 1.8% to 8.6%. It requires a small ignition source, which could be a match, cigarette, electrical spark (think overhead catenary) or even a sharp strike against cetain materials, particularly metals containg aluminium, magnesium, titantium etc.
LPG is stored in a closed high pressure system so any breach will leak gas or liquid that rapidly gasifies leading to an air/gas mixture of potentially the correct proportions.
Once ignited the explosiion is highly likely to lead to fire and subsequent possible death by carbon monoxide poisoning as well as fire and shrapnel injuries.
So you can smell a leak, but you have nowhere to go to escape.
Eurotunnel could very well be subject to similar regulations as mines regarding potentially explosive atmospheres. In a mine, it is the law to shut down electrical power once gas levels exceed 1.25% at any monitoring point.
Imagine how your wife and kids would feel if they found themselves stranded in the tunnel with the smell of gas and in the dark? And them some idiot pulls out his lighter to shed some light on the matter.....
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>>LPG can explode ...
Although the required proprtions may differ, isn't the same true for petrol? It is kept under pressure - the line between the pump and fuel rail remains under pressure even after engine switch off.
I don't see such a large difference.
Number_Cruncher
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number_cruncher...no....petrol does not readily vapourise and form an explosive mixture - it has to be atomised e.g by spraying. The rate of evaporation from a spill is normally very slow. Don't confuse explosions and catching fire. Also petrol does not require a sealed pressurised container - I am not aware of any engine that keeps fuel under pressure between pump and "rail" when switched off.
kush - you don't take chances with peoples lives - I work in the mining industry (safety) and accidents do happen causing misery for many people. An gas explosion is rare, thanks to high safety standards, but when they happen, people usually get killed.
I'm sure the decision to ban LPG vehicles (and other hazardous chemicals) on Eurotunnel was made by safety experts and possibly also influenced by their insurers.
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>>I am not aware of any engine that keeps fuel under pressure between pump and "rail" when switched off.
I'm not aware of many post 1993 cars that don't keep residual pressure in the line.
Number_Cruncher
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With LPG cylinders exposed to fire, unless cooled, they may BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion) if the casing, weakened by fire impingement, fails under hydraulic pressure. Applies whether or not possessing a relief valve, if the fire strikes the cylinder above the liquid level for long enough. Petrol does not explode: there is little chance of an over-pressure with petrol, nor shrapnel.
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Talk about doom and gloom!
Brum i hope you are not a motivational speaker!
sq
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 14/12/2007 at 17:25
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Having once spent 4 hours vomiting on a Newhaven - Dieppe ferry, I vowed never to use a ferry again. The tunnel suits me fine. In the case of an accident, I'm not sure drowning in the channel is preferable to being suffocated in the tunnel.
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HnT
Yes, that foreign food has the same effect on me.....
At least the ferry has lifeboats - I'm not sure that the train has BA.
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At least the ferry has lifeboats - I'm not sure that the train has BA.
Didn't help those in that ferry a few years ago...
I think its down to personal preference - my other half is not a good sailor so the tunnel is excellent - and, from my experience a damn sight quicker - also I'd hardly call a one and a quarter hour ferry ride a "cruise"!!
The Chunnel suits me, but obviously doesn't suit others!
Edited by b308 on 15/12/2007 at 14:00
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I have trucks with some of their load classed as hazardous ( seat belt tensioners / airbag igniters ). These are classed as non harzardous via road, but are via sea. If I need one of these shipments somewhat earlier than planned, I cannot use the tunnel. They must ship via sea.
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On the Scottish islands served by Mr MacBrayne, they can't get any paint as it's banned from his ferries.
You're not even allowed to carry a fully-legal spare can of diesel in your car.
[P.S. NC is right; most hold c.2-3 bar in the line for up to twelve hours post key-off.]
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On the Scottish islands served by Mr MacBrayne they can't get any paint as it's banned from his ferries.
Strange; the holiday cottages I've stayed in on Harris are as well painted as anything on the mainland. On some routes hazardous goods are shipped via additional sailings with restrictions on carriage of other passengers.
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Strangely; it seems to be Mull [where you could almost float a can across] that is the worst affected. A friend on the Ross was bemoaning the problems of getting paint quite recently.
Maybe all the fishing traffic to the outer isles makes the difference.
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