I'll just say that the junction in question is such that the road might well have appeared clear when the car pulled out -
i think the op stated that the car didn't pull out onto the path of the bike.
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Car drivers fault, but what was the biker thinking? I avoided death once, let's give it another shot?
Stupid, stupid reaction.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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If the road is clear when you reach the junction how long are we expected to wait just in case someone doing well over the limit decides to make an appearance?
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On the evidence given, the biker's fault.
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One day, the biker will do that silly stunt to someone with a temper and shall end up in a bit of a mess. Brake testing a car when you're on a bike is Darwin level stupidity.
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Two wrongs make a right? I've read few of these examples on other motoring forums and each time the verdict has been that the cause of the situation has been in the wrong, but the victims reaction has been far more dangerous. The fool has already shown he isn't capable on considerate motoring so what else is he up to? On drink or drugs? Got a gun hidden down the side of his seat?
What happens if a shopper walks out in front of us on the high street? Do we dive in front of them and start weaving around like a madman? (only if I've had a drink or two maybe...)
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I'm tempted to give the biker the benefit of the doubt here. He'll have been flooded with adrenaline from a close brush with death, so he won't have been behaving rationally. That situation makes you behave rather oddly for a few minutes.
I can attest to the fact: I once suffered it myself when someone undertook me on the A1 (in my lane, about six inches from my left foot). My behaviour for the next few minutes isn't something I'm proud of, but I wasn't really in control of my emotions. It's easy to deride sitting calmly at a computer keyboard; experiencing it is another matter.
V
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Not sure there's to much doubt to give the benefit of - the guy was obviously filled with plenty 'nough adrenalin (if it was just the natural drug he was on) before his close encounter of the near fatal kind.
In my much younger days when despatch riding (..and from his description, he might well have been one..panniers, full leathers) I rode with a maniacal intensity & mostly (to my discredit) exceeded the posted limits. Luckily I was never killed(!), but the close shaves I did have when riding (..and if I was exceeding the limit) I put down to my lack of forward vision & planning. It sounds like the biker in question had neither the necessary skills , nor the insight to realise this - hence his irrational response. He could have made the situation much worse, if, as pointed by an earlier poster, the car driver had had a similarly maniacal response to his provocation.
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Well you have to laugh at the OP "statement".A barrister would tear you to bits,
"A high powered bike with panniers" .
" Dressed all in black like a Papparazzi "
" I guess the bike was doing maybe 85 to 95"
Anyway maybe it was a police bike out on a training excercise !
Edited by Mr.Tee43 on 27/11/2007 at 16:53
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Anyway maybe it was a police bike out on a training excercise !
If it was, he failed the exercise big time!
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What pendulum said. Carrying on like that, I shall be surprised if he makes it to the weekend.
And then whoops! up go all the premiums for those of us who ride in such a way as to arrive at where we want to go.
Sigh.
In answer to Cheddar, no it's not all right to pull out on a biker and the "it has 2 wheels therefore it doesn't exist" mentality of certain road users needs jumping on.
But it is even less all right to behave as the biker did. From what the OP said the guy was already riding like a twonk on a stretch of highway notorious for bad accidents (I have travelled the A36 from M27 to Bath many times). I'm no policeman but I identified 3 offences* in there straight off and there may indeed be others.
* 1) speeding; 2) dangerous driving; 3) the bit of the Public Order Act about conduct likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress.
Bigger sigh.
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I would be surprised if there was anyone here who had never, ever, responded to bad driving with deliberate bad or rude driving. Sometimes though you can't tell what people are getting indignant about - it may be something as simple as being overtaken. Some people are the most staggering cretins.
All of that said, why is everyone going on about what a bad driver the biker is? He avoided being killed by the (apparently) not all that careless car driver, then gave a bit of a demonstration which also resulted in no injury. Silly, sure, but dangerous? Probably not very.
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All of that said why is everyone going on about what a bad driver the biker is? He avoided being killed by the (apparently) not all that careless car driver then gave a bit of a demonstration which also resulted in no injury. Silly sure but dangerous? Probably not very.
Trying deliberately to provoke an accident is something I would view as dangerous.
Also, there is the point that if he reacts like that to something comparatively minor, is he temperamentally suited to being on the road at all. The behaviour described paints a picture of someone who doesn't give a monkey's for his own safety or anyone else's and is prepared to behave in a sub-playground manner to prove some sort of point that is lost entirely on the rest of humanity. Again, dangerous imo.
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Paulb "something comparatively minor"
On what basis do you make that claim? My reading of the OP was that he'd "swerved" at "at least 85-90". Speaking as an ex-biker, that isn't minor. I'd like to see how rational you'd be in the minute or so after that happening to you.
As I say, it's very easy to be rational in front of your keyboard in a nice, warm, safe room. Very different if you've just avoided death.
V
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Paulb "something comparatively minor" On what basis do you make that claim? My reading of the OP was that he'd "swerved" at "at least 85-90". Speaking as an ex-biker that isn't minor. I'd like to see how rational you'd be in the minute or so after that happening to you.
Rational enough not to engage in the sort of behaviour that carries a much greater chance of me being involved in a very nasty accident than the thing that annoyed me in the first place, I should say.
I ride to work whenever I haven't files and whatnot to carry. I get someone doing something daft in front of me that requires avoiding action of varying degrees of severity nearly every day - had a moment the other week where if the guy HAD hit me I'd have been knocked flying over a bridge parapet at a busy motorway junction, landing on the middle lane of the motorway about 30 feet below. Would have been entirely his fault too, but that wouldn't have un-widowed my wife or given my son his father back.
My reaction to all this tends to be of the "thank pink fluffy dice I got out of that in one piece" variety. Now I know that not everyone reacts the same to stuff. But if having to take avoiding action is all it takes to tip this chap into this sort of suicidally daft behaviour then he is a danger to the public and should not be on the road at all, not even on a pushbike. Nothing justifies this sort of idiocy.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 27/11/2007 at 19:06
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My reaction to all this tends to be of the "thank pink fluffy dice I...
The asterisks were my own, Dave, not the result of a cheeky attempt to see if the swear filter was looking the other way :-)
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both of them got it wrong.....
car driver should anticipate fast drivers/riders on straight wide bit of road (unfortunately many don't)
bike rider should anticipate car drivers pulling out, (particularly if he's riding fast) because they all do it, every single day of the week
where the bike rider steps over the edge for me is the stupid, stupid brake test. If the car driver was old or part blind or daft....and didn't react quickly enough then the bike rider is dead...simple as that.....who would want to put themselves at that risk
what's wrong with a good old fist shake or a finger?.....:-)
Edited by Westpig on 27/11/2007 at 18:18
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>>car driver should anticipate fast drivers/riders on straight wide bit of road (unfortunately many don't)<<
The A36 isn't like this in many places. The op doesn't say that the incident happened in this situation.
There are places where it is possible to take every possible care before pulling out, and even though there is nothing in sight because there is a bend close to the junction, for example, it doesn't stop something suddenly appearing at speed in the rear view mirror. The only other option is to sit there for ever or wait for the council(or whoever) to improve the safety of the junction.
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I think you'd have to have been there to be able to judge all stages of the yarn. And there might still be differences of opinion (although there might not, or hardly. But the truly idiotic and the perverse have to be taken into consideration even when to most people the rights and wrongs are obvious).
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Oh so its alright to pull out on a bike then is it!!!!!!!
85-90!!!!!!!! England!!
I have ridden bikes for most of my life and as far as I am concerned 99% of Bikers don't help themselves now. They watch Moto GP or similar and think that they are all Barry Sheene. I still have no time with the P ratts that turn right blind etc or pull out cos they're yacking to some other berk in the car, but bikers in the main don't help themselves......Wouldn't want to be seen dead (sic) in a reflective vest.
MD
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The ones I see on either side of Box Hill in summer, in proper leathers nearly always, are quite often extremely and illegally fast, and pretty sprauncy with it, but nearly always more or less impeccable in the driving department.
Of course there are exceptions and before they cross-hatched the 'Deceptive Bends' on the A24 between Leatherhead and Dorking and moronicised the speed limit one came across distressing debris and busy emergency services there every now and then... but not often.
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between Leatherhead and Dorking and moronicised the speed limit one came across distressing debris and busy emergency services there every now and then... but not often.
I did as well, very frequently as it happens. "deceptive bends" was a notorius bloodbath
------
< Ulla>
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I did as well very frequently as it happens. "deceptive bends" was a notorius bloodbath
>>
Box Hill, I went most Sundays for a couple of years, around summer '78 and then '80 to '81, never saw an accident on the Micklelham Bypass.
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Liked them myself AE, even before the Wet Official Blanket, but then I'm not a biker.
I don't suppose for a minute that the real bikers even tried conclusions on those bends. You would definitely need 20 per cent in hand because of all the driveways and so on. And of course the Surrey mimsing and Magoo fraternity along with its Toads.
I imagine those bends, hardly more than a mile in length and much worse 'southbound' than 'northbound', were the ones that got rid of the, you know, asking-for-it bikers. The 'Beagle Bends' they might have been dubbed.
Edited by Lud on 27/11/2007 at 19:54
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Ah - Box Hill on a Sunday - Bikers Mecca.
Mickleham Bends near Box Hill have now got a fixed speed camera 50 mph .
I know at least two people who slowed down for the camera , then speeded up again only to be zapped by plod with a moble camera half a mile further along the road.
Box Hill Zig Zag Road has speed humps .
Plod motorcycles also patrol the area on a Sunday to curb the idiots.
All this has done is moved the problem.
The last time I went up that way on a summer Sunday this year I saw at least two idiots pulling wheelies on the A25 between Reigate and Dorking . I then went on the A24 further up towards Leatherhead and came across the police and paramedics attending a biker whose machine was under a lorry - I believe from the local paper that he did not survive.
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>> Oh so its alright to pull out on a bike then is it!!!!!!! 85-90!!!!!!!! England!!
85-90 was a guess by the OP !!!!!!
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85-90 was a guess by the OP !!!!!!
An 'A' road didn't he state? What is that speed limit then? Was the OP so far out?
MD
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I used to ride bikes all the time and strongly believe that if every car driver had spent a week or two on a bike before getting in a car that would make them far, far better drivers.
These days cars are like mobile armchairs. Nice and warm, ultra smooth, quiet with all sorts of gadgets (the worst IMO is satnav) to distract drivers from what is going on outside of their comfort box.
That said, if a road speed limit was, say, 50mph and a driver does take the time to look, look and look again and a biker appears at 80-90mph then the biker is hardly an innocent victim is he?
The trouble is that this biker is probably fed up with cretins pulling out in front of him all the time and this time he was pushed too far.
As another poster said, doing emergency stops with a car behind you is moronic.
A mate of mine on a bike was hit by a car from behind and it caused him some very nasty injuries.
I guess what I am trying to say is that MAYBE this time the biker was at fault but his reaction was probably due to the fact that this is a frequent occurence for him, even when he IS riding within the law??
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There was an incident very close to where I live. A tractor and trailer pulled out on a flat straight B-road and a bike smashed into the rear quarter of the trailer, estimated speed of the bike 90 mph.
The biker died and the trailer was barely scratched.
Official police opinion - fault was entirely with the biker - you cannot travel at those speeds and expect a normally competent driver to spot you in time - If you choose to travel at those speeds you need to ensure that you have sufficient space and time to take appropriate and safe avoiding action.
Oh and I got caught out by a biker today when I was pulling out at the beginning of a two lane stretch on the A47. Yes I was indicating and watching, I made the mistake of assuming that double white lines applied to all vehicles. However trying to kick out at my car doing 70ish from a bike doing the same, but still on the wrong side of double white lines with a fast approaching artic doesn't inspire confidence in me.
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Wow, hard to comprehend some of the opinions here. For those that adopt the pseudo libertarian 'all bikers are ok, man' posture - well, you've obviously not ridden fast motorcycles. Any numbskull can wind back a twistgrip on a 100+hp motorcycle, it doesn't take much skill at all, so get a little realism into your apparent hero worship - did you miss out when you were younger or something?
The biker in question got into serious trouble doing an estimated 80-90mph on an A-road - didn't have the gumption to look ahead & notice a junction - surprsie, surprsie!! - a car emerges - he's a low skill (and probably low intelligence) biker, not uncommon. The reported speed isn't really that that on a sports bike, given their accelerative/deccelerative & manoeuvreabiltiy dynamics - to get into trouble on a fast-ish A-road with it does spell numpty in my book - confirmed by the subsequent childish behaviour.
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Woodbines, where's the "hero worship"? I've just reread the entire thread and can't see anythig even remotely equating to hero worship.
V
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What happened to " . . . . must be able to stop in the distance you can see . . . . . . . "
As described the biker could not and that caused the problem.
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About a hundred years ago when I was taught to drive, it was drummed into me "when approaching a junction, cover brake and clutch, and be prepared to slow down in case anything turns unexpectedly".
So what did the biker do? - hammer on at a speed certainly in excess of the limit.
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About a hundred years ago when I was taught to drive ......
Things have changed considerably since I was taught to drive 100 years ago. For example, there were almost no stop lines or warning signs at junctions and crossroads so you had to be ultra-cautious. In fact I failed the test the first time for going across an urban crossroad without slowing virtually to a standstill. Nowadays drivers rely on the protection of road markings and signs to keep them out of trouble.
--
L\'escargot.
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I normally agree with you Woodbines however:
Any numbskull can wind back a twistgrip on a 100+hp motorcycle it doesn't take much skill at all>>
Even 100hp on a damp road needs some skill in moderating the throttle relative to the grip available, yes there are some nutters on bikes though even they dont ride everywhere flat out, you simply cant when 100 is 5 secs is possible.
The biker in question got into serious trouble doing an estimated 80-90mph on an A-road >>
The OPs estimate, could have been 60 in third, quite noisy, breaking heavily, forks dive, car driver thinks 'hooligan biker' by default.
he's a low skill (and probably low intelligence) biker not uncommon. >>
Out of order - crass sterotyping of the worst type.
subsequent childish behaviour.
Agreed, as reported it was childish though the criminal was the car driver who nearly killed someone!!!!
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> he's a low skill (and probably low intelligence) biker not uncommon. >>
Out of order - crass sterotyping of the worst type.
Yes, agree it would be crass to say that - but it's my lack of clarity I'm afraid.
I meant to link the frequency of 'low skill' to 'low intelligence' , not with bikers in general,
which is, unfortunately, how it reads.
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It sounds more like the rider was making a point, road rage would have left him with no overtaking mirrors.
Did he pull out and hog the white line, leaving less room for manoevre? Did he accelerate smartish to get up to speed. or dawdle? The scenario we've been given doesn't sound right, if the bike wasn't in sight then, even moving at speed, he wouldn't have seen him pull out of the side road, so would have treated him just like another obstacle. He surely must have done something else to provoke the reaction.
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I bet the biker felt like a real man after doing that... for at least ten minutes.
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I bet the biker felt like a real man ...>>
I hope the car driver felt like a complete asre and is still losing sleep over it, it might mean that next time he sees the bike!
I am not excusing the biker's actions rather I understand his motivations.
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cheddar I presume you are a biker (not that that is relevant) but I can't see why you think that the car driver was in the wrong
To me the OP was implying that the road was clear and because the biker was travelling far in excess of the speed limit by the time the car had pulled out, the biker had not left itself enough room to stop safely.
The figures, unfortunately, speak for themself. Bikers = 1% of road traffic and 20% of road fatalities.
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You have to laugh at a guy `exposed` on a bike having a temper tantrum. Good job the car driver didn`t lose it too and cannon him off the road.
(I write as an ex biker who used a big bike as sole transport for years.)
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"Two wheels good, four wheels bad ..."
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The figures unfortunately speak for themself. Bikers = 1% of road traffic and 20% of road fatalities.
Actually that's because you can survive most 60mph crashes in a car but not very often on a bike, not that 1 group is a safer driver than the other.
If it's a junction onto a fast road, I'm not so concerned about an oncoming bike, I'm more concerned with an oncoming truck. I wonder what the stopping distance is for them at 55mph (I know their limit is 40mph but surely it's not only bike riders who break the speed limit?) Something for us all to bear in mind when we're "safe" inside our little tin boxes with airbags and seatbelts
Edited by Garethj on 29/11/2007 at 08:53
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mr average driver is expecting traffic to be travelling no faster than the speed limit. Once you, as a driver, exceed this limit you're on your own. This biker was exceeding the speed limit for a motorway let alone an A road therefore should have been anticipating accordingly. Surely there would have been signs further back down the road indicating the presence of the junction? Assuming yes, then the biker should have been prepared for a vehicle joining the road at a low speed. Given his actions I suspect he was aware and is just a two-wheeled bully who will do this once too often and end up as a statistic.
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This biker was exceeding the speed limit for a motorway let alone an A road >>
As I have said that is the OPs estimate, could have been 60 in third, quite noisy, breaking heavily, forks dive, car driver thinks 'hooligan biker' and speeding by default.
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As I have said that is the OPs estimate could have been 60 in third quite noisy breaking heavily forks dive car driver thinks 'hooligan biker' and speeding by default.
I had the same this morning in London when a pedestrian stepped off the kerb in front of me. He didn't even have the Mobile Phone Of Invincibility in his hand but still didn't bother turning his head. I sounded the horn to let him know I was there and I got lots of hand waving and "slow down" in return. My speed? 10-12mph and I was 15 metres away from him.
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Defensive driving (and riding!) is all about asking the question "what if...?" . This is even more vital for a motorcyclist - though it all depends on how much he values his life. It sounds as though he wasn't a very good rider as he had not anticipated the road ahead.
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Where was the OP observing all this from ?
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