I often read in threads on here, from HJ himself (I think) and on French car websites this business about making sure you use 'quality fuel' ( latest one was a French car website blaming TDCi failures on poor-quality supermarket fuel ). Yet people ' in the know' seem to say the fuel all comes from the same refineries and all meets the 'required standards' (I mean, this isn't Cambodia is it ??) .
So, my question is, does sub-standard quality fuel actually exist in Uk and Europe ???
(Sorry if i missed a thread on thiss and its recently been dealt with)
Hope you've all got a more exciting Friday night ahead than I have.
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I can only comment with respect to diesel fuel, the testing of which I used to be involved with.
I have not seen any substandard diesel fuel for retail sale in the UK.
I run my VAG PD diesel on fuel from Tesco which meets the vehicle maker's standards. I do not have any problems with this and don't anticipate any. Past sectioning of fuel filters from previous diesel cars using fuel from this source suggests that it is very clean. I have never found any water in it.
I pay the bill so I buy the cheapest fuel which meets the spec.
659.
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Well that's exactly what I expected to hear. So how come it is so common to read comments about fuel quality from people in the business ??
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Thought it was just me that sectioned fuel filters in the past. They were all so clean I wondered why I was bothering to change them.
regards
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Working for a diesel fuel systems Company, it was once part of my job. Old habits die hard.
If you're looking at a diesel fuel filter you need a microscope to see the particles (some as small as 5 microns) trapped in the interstices of the paper cells.
If you do the same thing to an engine lubricating oil filter, the bits of trapped carbon are like bricks in comparison and are easily seen with the unaided eye.
659.
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659, thanks for solving my 20 year mystery ;)
Do you think diesel fuel filter changes are too frequent and whats the worst that can happen, other than fuel starvation if they are left until that shows ( other than draining any water now and then)
sorry to take the thread slightly off topic
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You're seeking the answer to an impossible question. For a given size of fuel filter (active area of element) the change interval will depend upon the amount of dirt in the fuel, how much of this fuel you have put through it and the acceptable pressure drop across the filter at maximum flow, just before it's due for a scheduled change.
I know this isn't much practical help, so I'll give you my opinion. In the UK, drain the filter bowl (50cc will do if there's no visible water) EVERY service. You probably won't see any water but you will shift the dirtiest fuel in the filter and swill out the dirt with it. Do it when the engine has been standing (ie not operating) for several hours.
The worst thing that can happen with a neglected fuel filter is that the paper element will be seriously weakened if the water level rises to the level of the element itself. If it is blocked with dirt, it's possible that the element will then fail due to the pressure of fuel being pushed through it at maximum demand - with disasterous consequences. Good quality filters don't usually burst, but gross neglect is difficult to design for. There is no bypass blow-off as with an oil filter.
Change the filter at least every 30k miles and more frequently if dirt or water is suspected. Use OE or Bosch filters. There are a few other good makes (mainly German) but lots of bad ones. Don't economise, good filters are not expensive.
659.
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The local refinery to me is Grangemouth - run by a private company INEOS - it bought it from BP some 12 mths ago.
They produce fuel - diesel, unleaded, kerosene etc etc for all major brands.
The fuel is all the same with the exception of additives that go in at the last moment into the roadtankers. Many years ago the drivers would open the hatch to the tank and pour in 2 gallons of whatever - depending on "the brands " - Esso, Shell, BP etc.
It is now part of the load and a computer controls the additives the requirements for that Brand.
Exception is Shell V-Power Diesel - tankered around the country from Cheshire Shell Refinery.
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All UK retail fuel has to meet the relevant British Standard (which incorporate the Euro standards). Car manufacturers who sell cars in the UK make sure that their engines run on this fuel (otherwise they would be deluged with warranty claims) - so basically you can fill your car with any fuel sold on EU forecourts and it will be OK.
The UK petrol retailing market is such that there are now very few "backwoods" filling stations with old and leaky/dirty tanks. They all closed years ago.
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Quite so. It surprises me that the Ford Motor Company don't appear to be aware of this.
659.
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All beer is made from the same ingredients, hops, barley and water. Some brands suit some people, some don't.
Too many people have told me that their cars go better on Shell fuel for me to dismiss them. My Passat goes better on Shell, the wife's Focus doesn't care.
All fuel is good enough for any car, but me, others and HJ think that some fuel is better than the rest.
Me, I go best on Fullers London Pride.
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I won't be drawn on the merits of different brands but I have tested (military) diesels on a wide variety of fuels such as banana oil. It surprised me just how well these engines would function - parameters such as smoke and power output were measured on a test bed, not subjectively judged.
Rudolf's engine was a masterpiece of design - if you can get the fuel into the cylinder at the right time and in the right quantity, the engine will run. If the fuel cetane value is appropriate for the engine design, it will run well.
I have to agree with you 100% about the Fullers though. If I mentioned to you that the fuel systems Company I worked for was only a few miles from the brewery, you might be able to guess who they were. Much design work was done in Fullers pubs...
659.
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Good stuff 659FBE, my local is only 7 miles from Burton. They sell 3 times more Pride than Pedigree.
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HJ is correct IMHO. The fuel standards in EU currently do not require detergent additives, so although e.g EN 590 for diesel is met throughout, except where contraband fuel is sold (NI) it does not have to contain effective detergents. So it will run, but will also build up deposits in time. For petrol engines, some reports have shown significant build ups, cleaned off by the use of premium fuel, exceeding EN minimum requirements. You pays your money and takes your choice.
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You pays your money and takes your choice.
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Probably cheaper to buy supermarket best and add Redex.
Surely NI contraband comes from the Republic, where the tax is lower, so should still comply with EC standards, or is it made from potatoes?
Edited by Ruperts Trooper on 16/11/2007 at 19:43
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I think the dodgy stuff you need to avoid is red diesel that has been chemically treated to remove the dye, and almost certainly won't meeet any fuel standards. I don't think this problem has been confined to NI, but the last place you are likely to encounter it is a busy supermarket forecourt.
Aprilia's point is the key one though, and my petroleum chemist friend has said the same thing. It might (or might not) be true that some fuels cause problems, but if the fuel meets the required standard it is the engine that is at fault, not the fuel.
I have taken to using V-Power or Ultimate diesel though, just in case ;-)
Edited by Manatee on 16/11/2007 at 20:07
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I alluded to the formerly red-dyed fuel, with a tax holiday plus differential tax rates, treated by acid, near the border. In the Republic the dye is green:) But its not just NI. It occurs on the mainland too, because there's a margin to be exploited.
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Me I go best on Fullers London Pride.
Keep to the highest standards: Shell 91 octane premium for the New Yorker, Foster's Bitter for the driver.
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Keep to the highest standards
>>Shell 91 octane premium
Pah, I think Clarkson referred to that as washing up liquid!
for the New Yorker Foster's Bitter for the driver.
I can only assume you have a different 'Fosters' out there!
:-D
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For my previous diesel a Mondeo TDCi 130PS I can only comment as below:
- Brilliant to start with and run smoother on Smell diesel compared to Tesco...
- I cannot remember how old the car was but approx 18 months old got the classic EGR stuck and clouds of smoke and poor acceleration.
- Within 12 months EGR failed again and I ground to a halt suddently.... EGR faulty and not stuck
Then all fine until I notice what turned out to be a slipping clutch but garage also found leaking fuel injection. In fact they found the latter and the original symptoms still there so clutch done. Ironically without a faulty clutch would not have known about the fuel leak.
But apart from the faulty EGR/fuel leak/clutch it was pretty good on Tesco diesel. But it meets the standards so it should.
Replacement is a three week old Mazda6 (will have been built March at a guess) and it runs smoother on Tesco diesel than the Mondeo TDCi on Shell Extra or whatever its called.
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