Some of the replies listed here, just go to show how little some motorists know about advanced driving/riding.
In just the same way, I wouldn't pretend to tell a nuclear scientist how to do his job, the scibes of some of the replies listed here, should think twice about being judge and jury about a subject they clearly demonstrate here, to know little about.
By the time a Police Officer gets to the stage of riding a Police Motorcycle, the chances are he will almost certainly be an Advanced Police Driver with considerable experience of responding at speed to incidents safely, and sucessfully completed many hours of intense training and courses.
The term Training Excercise does not indicate the Police Officers were learners, far from it, more likely they were on a yearly or Bi-annual refresher course to ensure their skills were kept at the high level required.
In contrast, would guess that most motorists using UK roads today, last underwent any training just before they passed their test and have never taken an interest in any form of further training (I.A.M Members I don't mean you-(Well Done)).
130 mph is too fast and is in any case, illegal for the majority of UK drivers. This does not mean that it is Dangerous or illegal for Trained Emergency Services Drivers/Riders, when permitted.
130mph indicates the Police Officers had assessed the Road ahead, the traffic, weather, and road conditions, hazards they could see, hazards they might not be able to see and any scenario that may be expected to develop. If the officers were not satisfied with any of these factors they would have deemed it unsafe and the speed would have been accordingly lower......How many other motorists who travelled that road on that day applied that level of thought to their driving. The level of concentration and observation required is a skill which can be learned and most road users have no idea how high those levels can and should be.
What is not mentioned and will probably never be reported, is how during training and real emergency response scenarios, trained emergency services drivers/ riders often travel certain sections of road at speeds less than the national speed limit, to ensure their own and the public's safety.
I would put money on the fact that during the training ride in question, the two Police officers involved would probably have travelled some sections of the road at a lower speed than other road users did on that day. The reason being that due to experience and training their perception of potential danger would have been higher.
No one is invincible, Police Fire and Ambulance Drivers / Riders do make mistakes the same as any other human.
Training is essential in all walks of life, unfortunately the level of training given to an Advanced Emergency Services Driver/Rider is sadly not usually available to the public, hence the carnage we see on our roads today. But advanced training is available to anyone is responsible enough to take it up.
Freedom of speech is fine, but to those who have placed adverse comments here. Get trained, then come back and make valid comments. If you think you don't need training or you can't learn any more than you already know, then chances are, for that very reason, you could well become the next statistic.
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Again, another reply which is largely patronising codswallop.
Are you seriously claiming that because the public aren't qualified police drivers, they aren't allowed to question any of the methods used to teach those drivers, or the techniques they use once qualified?
So if you eat a rubbish meal in a restaurant, do you not complain becuase you're not a trained chef? Most folk aren't qualified lawyers, but they are allowed to sit on juries. Many of us know nothing about Trident missiles, but have strong opinions on them either way. Car journalists couldn't build a car, but no one goes telling them to go learn to do so before committing pen to paper.
Total experience of a subject is not a prerequisite for comment on that subject. I've been a driver long enough to have a fair idea without advanced training what is safe and what is not. It's called common sense.
Some of the responses above appear to be missing the main point - I'm not arguing that it is inherently unsafe to drive at these speeds, but I do think that this specific case is open to criticism on account of the type of road, the mode of transport and the somewhat odd circumstances of two police bikers training in the patch of a different force (and, indeed, a different country) without informing the that force. If this really is standard practice and was a planned training exercise, then why was it done under these circumstances, and how did it get to the stage of an intention to prosecute before being dropped?
I'll repeat what I said previously, since the some who disagree with me seem to ignore it - I've no desire to drive at three figure speeds. That's not to say I haven't done so, and I'm well aware of the levels of concentration that would be required to do so safely. If I ever become a traffic statistic, it won't be because I'm driving too fast for the circumstances. I don't claim to be a perfect driver, but nor do I think I need further training, because I don't drive at a level that requires it.
I'll ask again, because to me this is the main point, and no one who disagrees with me seems to have responded to it - if you or someone you know was seriously injured in what transpired to be a training exercise, wouldn't you be somewhat miffed? By all means train police drivers to do their job, but not at the expense of innocents on public roads. If they must be trained for speeds of up to 140mph (and let's be honest, how many chases on twisty A-roads like the A68 actually require such speeds, especially for a bike?), then do that on simulated situations on a track or closed road, or at least put up some signs warning ordinary drivers that police will be using the roads for high-speed training. It's not a difficult concept to graps that I'd really rather not have people driving around me at those speeds, regardless of what they were doing or how much training they've had.
> No one is invincible, Police Fire and Ambulance Drivers / Riders do make mistakes the
> same as any other human.
Exactly. Only reinforces my point that no amount of training could stop a car or bike in time if something unexpected happens. To me, risking this for on a training run is just not an acceptable practice. There's been too much of this "oh, but they're the creme de la creme of drivers" stuff lately for my liking when a traffic plod gets caught exercising his or her adrenaline gland on a public road, on what clearly aren't official training exercises.
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>>I'll ask again because to me this is the main point and no one who disagrees with me seems to have responded to it - if you or someone you know was seriously injured in what transpired to be a training exercise wouldn't you be somewhat miffed? By all means train police drivers to do their job but not at the expense of innocents on public roads. If they must be trained for speeds of up to 140mph (and let's be honest how many chases on twisty A-roads.. actually require such speeds especially for a bike?) then do that on simulated situations on a track or closed road or at least put up some signs warning ordinary drivers that police will be using the roads for high-speed training. It's not a difficult
concept to graps that I'd really rather not have people driving around me at those speeds regardless of what they were doing or how much training they've had.>>
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XK you are showing a fundemental lack of understanding of the issues.
You've asked would people be miffed if a loved one was mown down on a training run ..yes, you're right I would think what a waste and it wasn't even a real deal....but....the training is still needed.
It is not at all realistic to train drivers on racing circuits or closed roads as there are not that many of them in reality, they are not that large, do not simulate road traffic at all and are expensive. Where in reality could you get up to 120mph plus in a road car. The fastest circuit in this country is Thruxton and you'd be hard pushed to get a fairly standard road car much past 100mph around that. There are industry proving grounds, but they're not going to be cheap are they and are full of manufacturers testing their products.
Warning signs.......???? A proven route for a driving school on an advanced course can be many hundreds of miles, through 4 counties or more. How many signs would that need and in reality how many mimsers take note of all the road signs that are there now, without having extras.
I can understand someone not liking the idea, fair enough. But there's plenty of things that people don't like, but have proven necessary... and this is one of them.
Lastly, anyone stating they don't need any advanced training because it's not needed is incorrect in my book.......if you said you couldn't afford it, would like to do it one day, will get around to it one day, then fair enough, but to say you don't need it, proves my point, you don't have enough knowledge on the subject and don't have any idea what you're missing and how you could improve your game.
In the same way someone could show me things on a computer that would open my eyes to things i didn't know existed, because i'm fairly clueless..then a decent advanced police driver could do the same to the average driver in the field of hazard perception and preventing you getting yourself in trouble in the first place... which is how they achieve high speed, relatively safely. Note i say relatively safely, high speed will never be totally safe.
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If some one was leaving my house with my belongings I would like to think that the person chasing them had a better than average chance of catching them. I don't want the police ambling along at the speed limit. If that was all they were allowd to do they might as well step away from the 5 Series and potter around in base model Fiesta's or CB250's.
People say "oh what if they encounter a fox/sheep/tractor at xhundred mph"? If you come of a 50 hmp on a public road you are going to be off work for a while if you are lucky. How much worse will it be at 140mph? That works Kawasaki Moto GP rider came off at inexcess of 200mph a couple or three seasons ago and raced the next race.
Having said that, can I please have the training (and machinery) so I can ride/drive that fast with inpunity? Pretty please.
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Both Smog and West pig make well reasoned comments, that I dont find patronising, or codswallop, however I am in the speed cameras are revenue earners and nothing to do with safety camp, so agree with others that speed at the right time in the right hands is no more dangerous than slow driving.
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First it is pointless UK police speeding anywhere as when they get there they just set up a perimeter and do an 'Elf and Savty' assessment before proceeding so they might as well have taken their time.
Second the UK police always try to suggest that their training the Roadcraft system is some kind of worldwide gold standard whereas the reality is that the methods used have not changed for decades and take no account of advances in vehicle technology or traffic densities. Experts around the world condemn the UK system as hopelessly out of date.
Third the UK police in these circumstances always claim that this training means these officers can travel at these speeds safely so they should not be prosecuted. So if I do the same training can I speed too? Er... no.
Just another case of don't do as I do do as I say.
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Just another case of don't do as I do do as I say.
Well no, if you look at various chunks of Road Traffic legistlation they are exempted unlike us poor mortals.
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The Roadcraft system has not fundamentally changed because its concepts ARE a proven gold standard. It has developed over the decades to adapt to advances in automotive engineering and traffic density. Its principles have become less regimented and more fluid to meet changing circumstances. Never the less its principles are still the same.
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I recently saw two white BMW 5 series cars complete with 8 cops (two instructors and 6 trainees?) having their lunch time sandwiches in a car park overlooking the river Forth. Discrete plates on the back of the cars indicated Northumbria police drivers under instruction.
They have to train somewhere, imagine the carnage if panda drivers were let loose untrained with these cars. When I drove a vehicle with emergency lights and siren (Military) the golden rule was if you dont arrive you cant help.
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A small anarchist demonstration, no more than 50 people, slowly passed the house yesterday causing some traffic congestion. The purpose of the demo was not clearly stated but two people, one of them one of the plod in attendance who greatly outnumbered the demonstrators, said that the group was hostile to 'the rich'.
There are quite a lot of rich people round here but they are not the predominant group in the street outside the house on Saturday afternoons. Earlier on, I was told, the group had caused some trouble in Portobello Market (quite congested enough on Saturdays without stuff like that, which the traders, a tough lot, dislike extremely).
The pace of the demo up the road, interrupted by much reciprocal photography between the plod and the demonstrators and frequent bouts of yelling, pushing and shoving, was much below even a slow walking pace. At this pace, behind the 50 demonstrators and 100 or so plod, were nine V8-engined big white plod buses with darkened windows, all empty, and at least one car.
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Nobody has replied to my point, maybe you don't know.
Were these cops on marked up police bikes ?
If they were not and on something like a Fireblade or an R1 in civillian riding gear. then this is whitewash and corruption.
Now all you police members on here know that many times, flashing your warrant card to a fellow officer, can let you off the hook more often than not.
A friend of mine who was a sargent, now an inspector, was once caught speeding one night on his way home. He told me he was doing nearly 60mph in a 30 mph limit in his car when he got stopped by a police patrol car. When approached by the on duty officer , he held his hands up and said OK do what you have to do.
They let him off and told him to go home when they found out who he was.
To get back to the point, if they were on police bikes with high viz jackets on, and truly on a training excercise then fair enough, but at those speeds with the problems police Pan Europeans have had at those kind of speeds, you maybe have to question their judgement.
Edited by Mr.Tee43 on 04/11/2007 at 16:00
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Police use unmarked bikes and ride in Civilian leathers. I've had a trawl on t'internet can't find anything one way or another. Write in to Northumbria Police and ask them under Freedom of Information Act for particulars of the incident and let us know. Were they Pans ?
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Quote"
Lothian and Borders Police said they were "confident" the speeding officers could have handled any danger on the road.
www.freewheelers.org.uk/images/wet-cement.jpg
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And again but on a more serious note
www.tiny.cc/Q6oaS
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So you're convinced they were Pans then ?
The issues with them are well documented and historical, there would have been bulletins to the Forces that run them (22 out of 43), there would have been Risk Assessments made and the bikes taken off the road or modified (it was a problem with too much weight over the back wheel apparently) or run at a much reduced safe maximum speed (well below 130 mph). The ultimate safeguard would have been the riders themselves making a judgement and not riding them outside their own safety envelope. Red Herring I think Mr T.
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No you miss the point.I don't know what kind of bikes they were riding.it was more of a riposte to the comment.
"Lothian and Borders Police said they were "confident" the speeding officers could have handled any danger on the road."
A sweeping statement, patently not true.
Whatever they were riding, there are issues to be addressed instead of just dismissing them by fellow officers who say "Big Deal"
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In all likelihood this would have been dealt with at Senior Officer if not ACPO level rather than between junior management.
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I've refrained from commenting so far, but what a load of dross some of the comments are.
Guess what, there is no 'old boys network'. What we have now are 'pro-active' Professional standards departments that set up situations in an attempt to catch people trying to 'flash' warrant cards. Even without this, the majority of officers would deal appropriately with any offence that arose, regardless of who was involved.
Any suggestion of speeding by an officer gets far more scrutiny than any member of the public would suffer. There seems to be a lot of people with very large axes to grind.
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my local police driving school uses a variety of unmarked motorcycles and the riders use non descript clothing. The pre-dominant bike is the Honda Blackbird, although that bike isn't used for policing much.
When they go out for a 250 mile run through several counties, i'm fairly sure they are not indulging in corruption or perverting the course of justice.. they will of course be driving at warp factor 5 on occasions.
but you know how it is, some people see conspiracies everywhere
furthermore if i get done for speeding (which i have and unfortunately have 3 points to prove it) i can think of no way i can 'get off' it and wouldn't dare try... the weariness that could go with that, is not worth the effort of trying (strict police discipline code and active complaints unit - now called Directorate of Professional Standards).
Having been around long enough to hear all the old war stories, i have no doubt policing 30 years ago plus was significantly different than that now and there may well have been opportunities to 'look after each other' in the old days. Those opportunities have significantly diminished since those times, through a change in general standards, technology and increase in staff in professional standards units.
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"my local police driving school uses a variety of unmarked motorcycles and the riders use non descript clothing."
Why ?
"When they go out for a 250 mile run through several counties, i'm fairly sure they are not indulging in corruption or perverting the course of justice.. they will of course be driving at warp factor 5 on occasions."
So! we have police officers riding around at "Warp Factor " speeds on public roads and no way for the people sharing the roads to know that they are the police.
I seem to remember a while ago some MP calling for the banning of motorcyclists because some hooligans were riding at high speeds through areas of natural beauty and spoiling it for walkers and horseriders and the like.
Police riders dressed all in black and riding black (probably) Honda Blackbirds, riding at warp speed are certainly going to add to the general perception the public have of "bikers" i.e bad
I suspect Westpig that you are really on shakey ground here.
Animal Farm anyone .
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There is quite some difference between the style of riding of Police Officers (who would also be accompanied by an Instructor) and a gang of motorcyclists out for a blat. Warp factor speed or not.
I very much doubt that these were 'off duty' or their feet would not touch the ground. I know of at least two occasions when errant 'off duty' cops were put through the mill for excessive speed. One was reduced in rank by two promotions.
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Just as an aside, routes are risk assessed and tend to focus on areas with lower concentrations of traffic on good roads. Hence the attraction of the Borders and Scotland.
And for those who are beefing about notifying different forces about when and where trainees are operating; there are national agreements and arrangements in place between the driving schools and forces.
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"my local police driving school uses a variety of unmarked motorcycles and the riders use non descript clothing." Why ?............
1,cheaper i.e. don't have to kit out bike with all the warning equipment etc when you'd never need to use it, as they won't be needing to drive in emergency mode for most of the course. They may well take a marked bike out for day to be assessed on 'blues and twos'..2, as stated above incognito means they can concentrate on driver training not policing...3, training bike might be better being a different model than a work bike and the training bike might not be 'qualified' to take all the kit, as they are all assessed closely by engineers to make sure they're fit for purpose.
So! we have police officers riding around at "Warp Factor " speeds on public roads and no way for the people sharing the roads to know that they are the police....
Hardly a new revelation it's being going on for donkey's years, at least 40 to my knowledge, probably a lot more.I seem to remember a while ago some MP calling for the banning of motorcyclists because some hooligans were riding at high speeds through areas of natural beauty and spoiling it for walkers and horseriders and the like.
Who says fast speed is automatically hooligan behaviour? Police driving courses obey ALL speed limits except nationals and then drive to a system that has safety as a very high priority which takes into account walkers, horses etc.Police riders dressed all in black and riding black (probably) Honda Blackbirds riding at warp speed are certainly going to add to the general perception the public have of "bikers" i.e bad........
Police motorcyclists wear reflective clothing, whether it's a band on top of black leathers or not. Some of the bikes may well be black as that's one of the common colours a Honda Blackbird comes in,although i've seen red and silver as well.... not being stereotypical are you, about bikers in black clothing on big bad black bikes? The fact that they could in fact be Old Bill shows how wrong you can be.
I suspect Westpig that you are really on shakey ground here.
Why?Animal Farm anyone .
How on earth does unmarked vehicles being used for police driver tuition equate to 'big brother'?
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Westpig.
Add to your number 1.
"whinging members of the public that see marked bikes/cars doing warp factor five and bleating along the lines "there was no emergency - they were going for their chips/doughnuts/ etc - ."
Big Brother was in another Orwell classic 1984. T was probably alluding to the revolting swine saying something like "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others" - either that or the windmill falling over.
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Big Brother was in another Orwell classic 1984. T was probably alluding to the revolting swine saying something like "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others">> - either that or the windmill falling over.
cheers, didn't read either and obviously confused the two
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traffic plod gets caught exercising his or her adrenaline gland on a public road on what clearly aren't official training exercises.
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How in Pink fluffy dice name can you say that it's "clearly" not an official exercise given the information in this thread?
Words fail me.
Blue
Sorry to edit you, I agree with your sentiment though
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 05/11/2007 at 23:50
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Patronising codswallop, .......well actually no.....if you'd taken the time to read and attempt to understand what was said you might realise the comments are based upon experience, and are in no way patronising. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and say, hence yor comments and my replies. You miss the point, would you tell, a heart surgeon he was doing something wrong, well no, because I guess youre not so qualified.
You may have an opinion if he is doing something right or wrong but my money would be on the trained guy to be right.........oh and before you say it, I'm not suggesting advanced driving requires the skill of a surgeon.
Understand some facts.
Police Forces regularly train in other forces areas it happens every working day and there was never as far as I'm aware the requirement to inform the other force.
Training might take in 3 or 4 different force areas or more. Its common nationwide practice.
If the police in quetsion were caught on a speed camera chances are it recorded their speed in less than 0.3 second. That proves that in that 0.3 second they were doing 130 mph. The speed check will have been on a relatively straight section of road due to the guidelines set down. Most performance bikes can go from 0 to 100mph and back to zero again before the average car has even reached 60mph.
Bikes can therefore acheive very fast speeds on straights and still brake safely for safe cornering ahead and no doubt it was on one of these straights the speed was recorded.
To suggest that the road was twisty doesn't mean that this speed was necessarily dangerous.
You state you dont need advanced training because you dont drive at a level that requires it............Thats exactly why you do, in other words youre blinkered enough to think you cannot benefit from training. Adavanced driving is not about speed- it's probably 85% correct observation. Lack of correct observation at any speed is dangerous and every driver on the uk roads would benefit from adavnced training. Especially those people who think they have nothing to learn.. .....
Police advanced training starts with a standard course that is approximately equivalent to the civilian advanced course and sticks rigidly to speed limits. Why does the course exist ?? well because there is lots to be learnt over and above what you think you know before you undergo such training.....but there again you wouldnt appreciate that, unless you'd attended such a course.
Police are the creme de la creme of drivers........did I say that......No didnt think I did !
Like it or not...Police work sometimes requires High Speed Driving....that requires a high level of training.....or maybe you'd prefer them not to train and hope that if they do have to venture over 70mph everything will be OK touch wood.
Why not Challenge yourself......take the advanced course....then come back and see if you can honestly say 'I didnt learn anything useful and become a better driver'
I doubt you will take the challenge, may be you're the first driver, ever to know it all ?!
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