Similar Test here
www.channel4.com/4car/rt/hyundai/i30/2122/2
And a homegrown test here.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=284&
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/10/2007 at 22:15
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Had it not been for the fact that we decided at the last minute to buy a soft top, and fell for an MX-5, we'd have bought a Hyundai Coupe a few years ago. We both loved it. Good looking, well put together and great to drive. Neither SWMBO or I have a problem with the Hyundai badge.
I'd like to try the 138 bhp 2.0 diesel. Looks impressive on paper.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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It won't sell because it's not attractive enough to cost so much. Where Cee'd is just bland, i30 looks like unwanted child of old Punto and BMW 1 series. And just like Cee'd it is at least half a decade too late. It's a rival to the previous Astra, previous Golf, last shape Focus. The sogging sides, high tailgate and silver trimmed front straight out of nineties in a years time will look like a retirement village relic abandoned between new shape corsas, revised Focuses and new Civics on parish book club parking lot. And once again, clenched to the magic five year warranty (why not 7 by the way - does Hyundai suggest the same Kia mechanicals inside ugly body will be less reliable?) like a school push over to a bag with flashy sneakers in a gym class, Hyundai remains totally oblivious that extended warranty matters only to those who buy second hand. Those who buy new cars to suffer the initial depreciation hits rarely keep them for more than 3 years. We don't have long term ownership market in UK. Not enough wealthy pensioners for that. And since for the same price they can have the car already voted best ride ,with the same toys onboard but cheaper maintenance deal, what is the incentive for anyone to buy it new?
So one again - Kia, Hyundai - you are doing it wrong. First, sell as many of them cars as possible. Make a name for yourself. Create a buzz on the street. Get known. Get popular. Then charge premium prices. Not a rocket science.
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
Edited by v0n on 06/10/2007 at 22:36
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It won't sell because it's not attractive enough to cost so much.
Wrong. I agree that it won't sell, but that's purely because it's got the wrong brand-name on it. The long warranty is a good selling point - you've had the car 3 years, you can sell it with a 2 yr manufacturer's warranty. If the car's not the same rubbish a lot of people buy, maybe they won't be so desperate to get rid after 3 years.
Why are people so anti-Hyundai? If this had rolled out of a European marque's factory it'd sell like hot-cakes and nobody would even think twice before parting with their hard-earned.
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Because Fords and Vauxhalls are British cars, don't you know?
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 06/10/2007 at 22:50
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> It's a rival to the previous Astra, previous Golf, last shape Focus.
What???
The previous Golf was an incredibly bland, anodyne car, as was the Astra, even by the standards of the time.
Compare with previous Focus all you like, but you lose the debate the minute you start bringing in cars like that, which themselves were years out of date compared with the best on the market. There is no way on god's green Earth that the i30 is as bland as a previous-model Astra.
When even the hacks start singing a car's praises, for someone to keep on with the old spiel is ridiculous. At the end of the day, the Golf is overpriced, and the Ford has an underpowered and outdated range of petrol lumps. Only the diesels are enough to save the Focus, and they're largely bought in from Peugeot!
The only way Ford can shift their cars is to dump them on the market at 30% discount. One to think about.
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>>Only the dieselsare enough to save the Focus and they're largely bought in from Peugeot!
Jase, I agree that some fine cars come out of the Far East, but frankly this constant slagging of Ford is now getting tedious.
Have you ever driven a modern Ford? Or more to the point, have you done so with the open mind you seem to be criticising others of lacking?
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Jase I agree that some fine cars come out of the Far East but frankly this constant slagging of Ford is now getting tedious. Have you ever driven a modern Ford? Or more to the point have you done so with the open mind you seem to be criticising others of lacking?
What constant slagging of Ford?
All I'm trying to point out is that, while they are in many ways fine cars, they're not the all-conquering gods that some try to make out. I find the Ford-worshipping tedious, and it appears my disgust at some of it has spilled over and gone over the top, for which I apologise.
Ford's petrol engines are weak relative to much of the competition, and most of the Focus diesels do come from PSA. Their warranties are also less than stellar. These criticisms spoil what is otherwise a very good range of cars IMO.
And yes, I have driven a number of modern Fords. I was in a 1.6 Focus just the other day -- handles well, obviously well enough made but engine noisy and a bit lacking.
Like I say, Fords are flawed like any other car. If I can't make that point without being jumped on, does that say more about me or others?
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Like I say Fords are flawed like any other car. If I can't make that point without being jumped on does that say more about me or others?
No, you said the only way they can sell them is to dump them on the market at a 30% discount, and that the only thing saving the Focus was its diesel engines. That's a little different to saying they're flawed like any other car, which of course they are.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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No you said the only way they can sell them is to dump them on the market at a 30% discount and that the only thing saving the Focus was its diesel engines. That's a little different to saying they're flawed like any other car which of course they are.
Well actually no it isn't.
The fact is that Fords sell at 30% discount. They would not be doing that if they did not feel that they needed to -- Ford is a business not a charity. Hence the comment holds.
And the comment about the petrols -- yes, with the frankly poor petrol engines, the relatively strong diesels are the only things saving it. If the range was judged on its petrol offerings only, they'd have a major problem. 75BHP from a 1.4 is patently not enough. These engines are a weak link -- the flaw that would prevent me from buying one, since I don't do diesel.
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The fact is that Fords sell at 30% discount.
Really? Since the dealer margin is only 10% excluding special promotions and run out model offers (I know this for a fact since I sold Fords for 2 years), please tell me where you can find this kind of deal in this country on a UK model.
Even the fleets don't get 30%!
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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most of the Focus diesels do come from PSA. >>
The Ford/PSA diesels are joint ventures in the fullest sense of the word. Mostly PSA design, but the 1.6 and 2.0 are built in Dagenham - where they used to make Fords. So, hardly bought from PSA.
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The previous Golf was an incredibly bland anodyne car as was the Astra even by the standards of the time.
Ok, I've gone too far with previous Golf - nothing on market is as conservative and eighties as last Golf was. But take a look at Cee'd. So many design cues from previous Civic and previous Corolla you could mistake it for 10 year old prototype.
Compare with previous Focus all you like but you lose the debate the minute you start bringing in cars like that which themselves were years out of date compared with the best on the market. There is no way on god's green Earth that the i30 is as bland as a previous-model Astra.
i30 is actually not bland. It's just unattractive. It looks like little brother of Suzuki Liana.
When even the hacks start singing a car's praises for someone to keep on with the old spiel is ridiculous.
Market doesn't care about prizes or journalists wetting their pants. I will always bring back to the table the two best selling cars Britain saw in last 15 years - Escort and Corsa. Both horrible, both slated by press, industry joke and with no features to speak of, let alone redeeming features. Both to this day beating just about anything but Focus in numbers. It didn't matter if Vitara was better in every aspect than Frontiera, it's the Frontiera public bought, it doesn't matter if Mazda 3 is better value than Golf, for the same price it's the Golf that people will buy. Simple. They won't pay the same price for what is alternative product, not main product itself.
At the end of the day the Golf is overpriced
But at least they have a name and following. And they worked on it for years.
and the Ford has an underpowered and outdated range of petrol lumps. Only the diesels are enough to save the Focus and they're largely bought in from Peugeot!
And yet it outsells any new car by at least a 30% of total figure year after year ever since it was introduced.
There is a slight inconsistency - you criticize me for slating a car when journalists sing prizes about it (which I actually don't - I actually like Cee'd and i30, I just think it won't sell) and then try and slate a car which every journalist agree is benchmark for its sector in most aspects (something I don't fully agree with, but that's the truth).
I'm impressed by Cee'd to be honest, was planning to purchase SW version, but I won't pay extra just to prove to the world that I am not afraid of labels. There has to be something there, something extra for me to actually choose it over old, trusted, easy to buy, service, keep and sell on brands. What would that EXTRA be in case of Hyundai? Looks? Below standard. Interior. On par with leading brands. Engine. On par with leading brands. Boot space. Nothing special again. Price. On par with just about anything else. Warranty? Who cares really, it's not like people won't buy three year old Golf or Focus from my hands just because warranty is finished. So - once again - imagine you are not car enthusiast but Joe Regular who knows nothing about cars - you go to car supermarket, you see two new cars, price is the same - do you take a car which is popular, one you can service on every street corner, will be easy to sell on, about which you can ask technical questions on dedicated enthusiast forum, or do you choose car from a company that has no decent or popular car to their name, few and far apart dealerships and none of your mates will ever know how to reset a stereo but will tell everyone you are unique and not afraid of asian brands?
The only way Ford can shift their cars is to dump them on the market at 30% discount. One to think about.
Well, but they do, and Hyundai doesn't. So at the end of the day it's still - if you can buy Coca Cola for the price (or cheaper) of Tesco Cola, why go for the latter?
Wrong. I agree that it won't sell, but that's purely because it's got the wrong brand-name on it.
In this sector: Suzuki Liana, Mitsubishi Lancer, Fiat Stilo/Bravo/Brava/Croma, Volvo C30, we know of Seat Leon because of popularity of performance models, like Cupra, but how often do you see Seat Toledo? All good names. All good labels. Market share. Non existant.
Wrong brand name on it?
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
Edited by v0n on 07/10/2007 at 00:03
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The only way Ford can shift their cars is to dump them on the market at 30% discount.
DP,
As a confirmed Focus fan (I'm now on my second) it's of great interest to me to hear about that. Please tell me where I can trade in my current 2.0 petrol Focus Ghia and get a 30% discount on a new one.
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L\'escargot.
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L'escargot,
I can't do 30% on a Focus 2.0 Ghia... but will 29.5% do?
www.drivethedeal.com has the 2.0 Ghia five door for £11,841.20 vs. list of £16,795, a saving of 29.496%.
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Yes, my profuse apologies for rounding up in such a cavalier manner ;)
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Because Fords and Vauxhalls are British cars don't you know?
Anyone who still thinks that needs to get back into their tardis and go back 50 years where they belong! Give me the Hyundai any day - its achilles heel is that it's unpretentious unlike a lot of the absolute rubbish sold under more mainstream brands.
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Very few people that buy Focus's and Astra's are never going to consider a Kia, Hyundai or any Korean car at present. It's only recently that the Japanese have started to become accepted by the mainstream buyer. It's the early adaptors to these Japanese brands that the Koreans are after.
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snip
Hmm. When I read posts like the above, I get the impression that people think that Hyundai is some small, aggressive start up company trying to establish itself in the market. Hyundai Motor (including Kia) is actually, in terms of units sold, the sixth largest manufacturer of passenger cars in the world with their biggest markets in South East Asia and the USA. The company have also been present in the UK for something like 30 years, so only about 10 years or so less than Toyota and Nissan. In that time they've gone from zero to a market share of around 1.5%, which frankly is not impressive. The company is not very profitable, especially with the financial millstone which is Kia, has a high cash burn rate and suffers from the strikes and management corruption which are part and parcel of corporate South Korea as well as an appreciating currency which makes exporting ever more expensive. They might make good cars but, in Europe at least, they are competing in saturated markets and it will definitely be interesting to see how they survive in the coming years.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 07/10/2007 at 00:52
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> The company have also been present in the UK for something like 30 years, so only about 10 years or so less than Toyota and Nissan.
Hyundai have been in the UK since 1985, nearly 20 years less than Nissan who started in the late 60s, and it has only been very recently that Hyundai have started to attempt to compete on equal terms.
Ultimately the UK market doesn't matter much (to any manufacturer apart from the small handful that have managed to crack it), because it is not representative of the world market as a whole.
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Ultimately the UK market ...... is not representative of the world market as a whole
Couldn't agree more with you there, Jase :-)
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Hmm. When I read posts like the above I get the impression that people think that Hyundai is some small aggressive start up company trying to establish itself in the market. Hyundai Motor (including Kia) is actually in terms of units sold the sixth largest manufacturer of passenger cars in the world with their biggest markets in South East Asia and the USA.
It doesn't matter. For all their involvement in global economy until now they had no universally appealing product between them. We know the name. We reckognize the label. But there is nothing in their back catalogue for any PR guy to build any kind of brand reckognition with. Not even entertainment or sport front to convince public with. There are no hot editions of any past models. No legendary engines. They don't run in any regular races. No appearances in "Gone in 60 seconds", TV, cinema. No story. No legend. Not even Skoda like anecdotes to crack over pint of beer.
They now have decent product, but they have to get off the high horse. Noone knows or, quite frankly cares about their long schlong position in Asia. If they outprice that good product straight away, then in Europe they can, at best, compete in musical chairs to the status of market ghost. With Perodua and Proton.
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
Edited by v0n on 07/10/2007 at 02:02
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So what you appear to be saying then is that no new company can ever make an in-road into the British car market ever again.
No way in the world is any company going to be able to offer a car that is both better, and substantially cheaper, than the existing competition, when the like of Ford are dumping product on the market at a loss.
What you are suggesting amounts to demanding that a company sells each and every car at a massive loss, over a very long period of time. This is commercially impossible, and wouldn't work anyway -- the punters would STILL buy the Ford even if Hyundai were offering BMW quality for Perodua money. After all, Ford's market share has actually gone down since they replaced their terrible old Escort with the Focus.
Under your conditions, Hyundai might as well pack their bags now.
Edited by jase1 on 07/10/2007 at 02:31
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So what you appear to be saying then is that no new company can ever make an in-road into the British car market ever again.
I said no such thing. It's been done before, it can easily be done again. Revival of Skoda in UK and Europe is a great example. Simple idea - VW equivalent, literally, for less money. Switch on PR, appearance, rally etc. Bang. Worked. No losses too...
No way in the world is any company going to be able to offer a car that is both better and substantially cheaper than the existing competition when the like of Ford are dumping product on the market at a loss.
But that's just the thing. It's not particularly better. Or prettier. Or better equipped. For the price. That's the trouble.
What you are suggesting amounts to demanding that a company sells each and every car at a massive loss over a very long period of time.
I don't think those prices are anywhere near losses, if anything it will be easier to be at loss by not selling cars. This is Korean venture with production done in Czech. If they can't beat prices of what's already on the market they would be in wrong business. And they can. After all - as an example - Hyundai can retail their Santa Fe SUVs in States, with 10 year warranty and RRP tag as low as £10,350 and the same 2.7 V6 car with 5 year warranty, in UK, has RRP price of £24,157.
I think there is healthy enough room in their profit margins to sweep us off our feet...
This is commercially impossible and wouldn't work anyway the punters would STILL buy the Ford even if Hyundai were offering BMW quality for Perodua money.
Again. Look at Skoda. Laughing stock turned into pure gold.
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
Edited by v0n on 07/10/2007 at 03:22
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> I said no such thing. It's been done before, it can easily be done again. Revival of Skoda in UK and Europe is a great example. Simple idea - VW equivalent, literally, for less money. Switch on PR, appearance, rally etc. Bang. Worked. No losses too...
But if you take Hyundai's sales figures as "poor", then you have to look at Skoda likewise. Hyundai sell around the same number of cars in the UK as Skoda does -- and doesn't rely on thousands of cut-price poverty-spec SDI taxis to manage it.
Skoda ain't a good example. Indeed they sold more cars in the 80s than they do now. Neither is Seat -- they sell around the same number of cars as Kia.
> Or better equipped. For the price.
But the Hyundai *is* much better equipped for the same price as the Ford, artificially-priced dumping notwithstanding.
Edited by jase1 on 07/10/2007 at 04:51
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But if you take Hyundai's sales figures as "poor" then you have to look at Skoda likewise. Hyundai sell around the same number of cars in the UK as Skoda does -- and doesn't rely on thousands of cut-price poverty-spec SDI taxis to manage it.
"Cut price, poverty spec" you feel very strong about those Korean hatchbacks, don't you? :)
Look, if your statistics are true then I'm sure they have nothing to worry about, Cee'ds must be going like proverbial off the shovel.
It's just... if Kia and Hyundai together sell twice more cars than Skoda, then where are those cars? It seems like you can't cross the road these days without being honked at by cabbie in Octavia, whereas, with small exception of odd Tucson on school run, I can't say I see than many Hyundais, even less Kias. None of my friends have or ever had one, never seen one parked on my street. Skodas is just opposite. Do you guys know anyone with Magentis or Elantra? Is there like a small town somewhere up north where people drive only Korean cars?
Regardless, good luck to them.
But the Hyundai *is* much better equipped for the same price as the Ford artificially-priced dumping notwithstanding.
You are clutching at straws. Who cares if it's artificially priced or on permanent discount. That's what you can buy it for. Equally well specced for real life OTR price...
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
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If you keep your Kia Ceed Diesel and I assume the Hyundai i30 will be the same for more than 4 years you will not have to fork out around £350 + vat at todays prices for a new cambelt as you do on the VW diesels.
Kia were also selling the diesel Ceed for the same price as the petrol. While it's residules are not as good as a Golf, it was a couple of thousand pounds cheaper to begin with.
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I want a car from a manufacturer that has franchised dealers in nearly every town in the country.
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L\'escargot.
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It's just... if Kia and Hyundai together sell twice more cars than Skoda then where are those cars? It seems like you can't cross the road these days without being honked at by cabbie in Octavia whereas with small exception of odd Tucson on school run I can't say I see than many Hyundais even less Kias. None of my friends have or ever had one never seen one parked on my street. Skodas is just opposite.
Lots of Hyundai's around here, very few Kia's or Skoda's, it's all down to a very good local garage. I am not however so far up my own bottom to believe that my own personal experiences are the same as everywhere(unlike some).
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> "Cut price, poverty spec" you feel very strong about those Korean hatchbacks, don't you? :)
Well it's true though isn't it? When you see Skodas out there, pound to a penny they are 1.9 Octavia SDIs, being used as taxis, usually with tape players and electric windows -- at the front -- if you are lucky.
> Look, if your statistics are true
Skoda, Hyundai, Seat and Kia all hover at around the 1.5% market share mark, or around 35-40,000 cars sold each year. You may not see too many of them in the leafy suburbs down south, but you go to some areas of the North of England, Scotland or especially Northern Ireland, you can't move for the bloomin' things. And the point about the taxis is an important one -- like most European manufacturers, Skoda relies heavily on bulk purchases from businesses -- taxi ranks in this instance. And while that is great -- a guaranteed source of income for Skoda -- it does mean that there is a corresponding lack of private buyers for Skodas, despite the apparent miracle you allude to. If 10,000 Skodas are sold a year as taxis -- a conservative estimate probably -- that only leaves around 25,000 private Skoda sales, which is comparable with Mitsubishi, a company which has really been in the doldrums in recent years. Given that Skoda sold around 60,000 cars in 1985, this miracle doesn't seem to have done much for them in the grand scheme of things.
Hyundai's problem isn't so much shifting enough boxes, it's shifting them at the right price.
> Equally well specced for real life OTR price...
Are they though? A £12,500 Focus may well sell for £9500 at the brokers, but the £11,000 Kia Ceed -- which will sell for a shade under £10,000 at the larger dealers -- has a number of standard features that are 3-figure options on the Ford. These all mount up.
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> Given that Skoda sold around 60,000 cars in 1985
Sixteen, not sixty, I apologise (I thought that was a lot). But even so, to only manage a doubling over 20 years, as against a ridiculously outdated, single platform isn't the most auspicious achievement of all time given the millions of pounds poured in to the company over the years. Don't get me wrong, I like Skodas, but if these had been a Korean company's results I suspect that no-one would be singing their praises quite honestly.
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Skoda Hyundai Seat and Kia all hover at around the 1.5% market share mark or around 35-40 000 cars sold each year. You may not see too many of them in the leafy suburbs down south but you go to some areas of the North of England Scotland or especially Northern Ireland you can't move for the bloomin' things.
I'm really surprised and would love to see some statistics, because just about anywhere on the continent Skoda alone outsells both members of Hyundai group year after year with ease. And then there is you lot sitting here and crying how British public is label orientated - at 35,000-40,000 units a year? Mini sold 38,000 units in UK last year and Mini as we all know is a great success for BMW. Land Rover, last time I checked, was barely breaking 40,000 per annum for the past 5 years and half of capital drives to Tescos in armoured Discoveries and Defenders. If Hyundai Group really managed to sell 40,000 Rios and Matrix to folk in Scotland there must a waiting list for Cee'd already.
Are they though? A £12 500 Focus may well sell for £9500 at the brokers but the £11 000 Kia Ceed -- which will sell for a shade under £10 000 at the larger dealers -- has a number of standard features that are 3-figure options on the Ford. These all mount up.
We've been through that already - 1.6 Zetec Climate can be bought, on the road, for £600 less than Cee'd 1.6 LS. Same goes for all Cee'd trims vs equivalent Focus spec, only the bottom S trim, when purchased from brokers vs Focus 1.6 Style is around £500 cheaper It will have more space, bigger boot and drive better. What exactly would those three figure options on Cee'd be that equivalent Focus doesn't have? USB sockets?
/Posted by carl_a/I am not however so far up my own bottom to believe that my own personal experiences are the same as everywhere(unlike some).
Meeeawwww. Thanks carl_a - your post is as informative and friendly as ever. I asked that before, never got the answer - what is it with you jumping on my leg every time I discuss stuff with others?
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[ Anything I drive can and will be used against me ]
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> I'm really surprised and would love to see some statistics
www.autoindustry.co.uk/statistics/sales/new
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It also must be said that the much-vaunted "recovery" of Nissan under Renault doesn't seem to be doing them much good in the UK!!
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Looks like we crashed that site !
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Hmmm, yeah...
Just Google the address and click the cached copy!
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It worked when I was checking the link when you first posted !
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I'm trying to work out who have been the big winners over the last few years, because the total sales haven't gone down that much, yet the French and Italian manufacturers have lost almost 175,000 unit sales (two and a half Fiats) if you count Nissan as well, over the last four years. That's scary. But no one manufacturer has gained all that radically.
I suppose if you add in Rover as well, then that's a quarter of a million less sales, the remaining manufacturers have just been moving the deckchairs around.
Edited by jase1 on 07/10/2007 at 16:54
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Thanks carl_a - your post is as informative and friendly as ever.
Why thank you v0n, I hold a special place in my heart for you.
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