Interesting point cattleman to raise on this post as I do not know of any Jap brand that has variable servicing. They all (to my knowledge) specify annual or 12ishK max miles.
There is a view that variable servicing is pandering to the fleet managers and is not in the best interests of durability for the car. Long term reliability matters more to the Japs than anything else and is another reason they do not do it IMO.
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In 2002 I bought a brand new Honda CR-V 2.0 i-vtec. It was such a bag of nails reliability-wise that we sold it 1 year later. (two electrical failures requiring complete replacement fuse box and loom, electric window mechanism failed, air-con failed, suspension clunks etc).
In 1999 I bought a brand new Ford Mondeo and clocked up 200,000 miles. In that time, apart from a steering rack at 130k and an alternator at 190k, it was faultless.
In my experience, Honda's "legendary" reliability is a myth.
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There are literally millions of cars made every year.
To extrapoltae from the experiences of one car or other is of course.. human.
it is also totally incorrect...
Statistics dear boy:-)
madf
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Madf is quite correct.
There are Hondas that are unreliable, and Alfas that are faultless year after year. The difference in reliability between the most and least reliable manufacturers is not huge these days.
Whoopwhoop's post makes the useful point that it is not wise to choose a car on solely on the basis of its expected reliablity. If your heart says you want an Alfa and your head tells you to go for Honda reliablity, you would feel pretty annoyed if you bought a Honda and it turned out to be one of the few that gave problems, and your neighbour got a faultless Alfa.
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8< SNIP.
If you can't reply to a post without resortingto name calling, then don't bother replying at all - DD
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> In my experience Honda's "legendary" reliability is a myth.
In my experience, Ford and Vauxhall are a load of rubbish*
Each car I've had by the two companies has been unreliable.
*I don't actually mean this -- this is just a reflection of the ill-thought out comment about Hondas. On balance, Hondas *are* more reliable than Fords, but that is not to say that there won't be duff ones about.
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I actually heard that Mercedes Benz either have ar are getting a special paint which is basically almost scratch and chip resistant.Does anyone know any information about that?
Years ago when I worked in South Africa, the cars just rusted away. Durban was terrible for rust because of terrible humidity in the summer months. When I got married in 1987 in Durban,a friends nice Audi had to have the doors replaced due to rust. Credit where it may be due; a relative of mine worked in the South African paint industry, he said BMW brought in the special pain for it's cars so they wouldn't rust. Of course the others soon followed.
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>>I actually heard that Mercedes Benz either have ar are getting a special paint which is basically almost scratch and chip resistant.Does anyone know any information about that? <<
Both BMW & MB use ceramic nano particles in their paint finishes to give them a tougher outer surface. This is supposed to be more scratch resistant although judging by the stone chips on our fleet of 3 series I would not say it was any better than normal.
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>>In my experience, Honda's "legendary" reliability is a myth. <<
Stick with Ford then whoopwhoop and thanks for sharing what is an extraordinary experience.
You do not hear what you experienced with a Honda many times.
I also thought Toyota's were reliable and to be honest I was very disappointed with SWMBO's Corolla. As you say - a bag of nails.
I always found Honda's very good so I will probably stick with them
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I don't know too much about car production or as such because I work in IT and not in car industry!
I've had several cars in last 6/7 years and most of them have been good. The worst for me has got to be Renault Megane and Peugeot 306 & 106 I owned.
I've had a Toyota Carina with 120k on the clock and I sold it after putting up 18k miles driving it in a pizza delivery job and apart from a rod (can't remember exactly what its called but it cost me £30 including labour) nothing went wrong.
My dad's got a Toyota Starlet, its got 108k miles on it and its going strong, quiet engine, no rattling and passes MOT with hardly any issues! We've replaced a starter motor on it and that's it!
My wife's got a VW Polo and since we had it (less than a year), I've replaced starter motor, front wheel bearings and today its getting a new gearbox because DKF gearboxes are pink fluffy dice and its got only 83k miles on it.
So from personal experience I could say Japenese built quality is miles better than European competitors.
But saying that my Volvo S40 1.9 TD with 129k miles on it, has been almost faultless since I had it.
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You do not hear what you experienced with a Honda many times.
Yes you do. There was a guy who posted on here just a couple of months ago that had had a total engine failure (pistol thrown out of the engine jobbie) on his 3 and a bit year old 40,000 mile CR-V?
How many other cases of low mileage FSH cars SUFFERING CATASTROPHIC ENGINE FAILURE have you seen on here recently? I can't remember any apart from that one!
I always found Honda's very good so I will probably stick with them
Good luck! I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.
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Or perhaps this guy www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=55...5
Honda Accord : Rubbish fuel economy, Poor quality paint, ALTERNATOR @ 20k!! trim rattles and knackered speakers.
But of course, Honda's NEVER go wrong ;-) dream on...
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But of course Honda's NEVER go wrong ;-) dream on...
Of course they do. I've said it many times before, but my next car will be Korean. Yes, they use technology based on older Jap designs, but they're much better value, and have much better warranties. Whatever you buy, from Daewoo to Bentley, something could go wrong. Using statistics/survey results and past experience to try and minimise such eventualities is all anyone can do.
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snipquotesBut of course Honda's NEVER go wrong ;-) dream on...
I've had a P plate Honda Civic 1.6LSi and it was a bullet-proof car!
I'm not saying that all Hondas are 110% reliable, they do go wrong but not as often as you think they do or the way you're describing them. Because if that was the case Warranty Direct won't list 3 of their cars in Top 100 most reliable cars list!
www.reliabilityindex.com/tophundred.html?apc=31283...1
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SUFFERING CATASTROPHIC ENGINE FAILURE
My son-in-law's Astra SRi needed a new engine when it was about a month old. Warranty job, of course, but still a surprise!
It happens, rarely, to all vehicles, even Hondas (and Audis). But probably less often to Hondas than most, which makes it more annoying when it does.
LJK Setright called them the world's best engine maker, and although I'd rather have a Ducati for emotional reasons, I know which would be more dependable!
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Pendlebury. That is very interesting what you said about the BMW and MB paint.
I also wonder, when you buy a new car which extra paint protection properly works, without destroying the shine or indeed the way the protection coat will go after some years.Interesting to know what is safe to use.
My dark blue Seat Toledo 8 yrars old still looks good; but from the time I bought it, the paint has got continually horribly chipped. I of course touch it up and also try to keep it polished. I know the modern paint is a bit vunerable because of companies trying to be friendly to the environment. They are absolutely correct; but the best protection coat which won't lose the initial shine and which doesn't discolour the paintwork after many years is good to know.
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Many of you know I have a Saab 93 and they regularly get panned on here. After 32000 pretty fine miles it has a couple of electrical faults, one a faulty display and one an air recirculation motor. I've had both faults for a few weeks now and since they don't stop me going up and down the M62 every day I've not bothered getting them fixed.
Anyway it's booked in next week. So, as I've said before, I judge the car on the ability of the dealer to do a good warranty job, provide me with a courtesy car without waiting for weeks and ring me to keep me informed of what's going on when they say they will. Something the VW dealers never did when I owned my Golfs and something my Saab dealer has done very well up to now. I don't expect such complex machines to be perfect so it's the post-purchase service that sends you back to a particular make.
I trust that's why Lexus must do so well.
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And, indeed, why I would go back to Saab at this stage of my ownership experience, despite the one or two faults.
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Hondas are extremely reliable cars. Of course the odd one will be poor and we will hear about those more. They frequently dominate the reliability surveys.
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Well I can only make my opinion from my Work/Job.
The Japs and Korea are the best, as far as quality goes when they arrive in the UK from their epic voyages from across the World and then you see the amount of damage/faults from the Local ports of the EU, such from Poland, Turkey, Spain, Italy, Holland and Germany, oh and the US.
From the reports we see it sometimes stems from the factory or thier agents(Delivery methods).
Every car in the world may give you 1000's of miles service etc, but do you know if it had any defects when it arrived.????
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Honda - >>Good luck! I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.<<
As I say whoop you are clearly the exception and every customer satisfaction survey almost globally would suggest so. You are clearly agrieved and have every right to be becuase judging by your repsonses you bought Honda with the expectation that it would be bullet proof and clearly it wasn't but I would also suggest your expectation was based on some knowledge that they are more reliable than almost every other manufacturer including Lexus and hence you strong feelings when let down.
As people have said they are not perfect all the time but according to the surveys they seem to be about 9 times out of 10 overall. Why else has nearly every other manufacturer copied how Toyota AND Honda build their cars.
Latest JDPower 2007 survey puts Accord 2nd and Mondeo 11th,
"In no2 spot for it's class is the Honda CR-V, Rating 83.4%, Overall ranking 12th.
The CR-V jumped up one spot to second this year, helped by excellent dealer service and low servicing costs.
Owners loved the CR-V's engine and gearbox, but were less keen on the looks. Plenty of seat problems highlighted the only real reliability concern, making CR-V ownership hassle-free for most buyers."
Overall Honda were 2nd in the review and Ford 18th so good luck whoop.
(You watch I have probably tempted fate here and will go out to find my Accord won't start).
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Bad ones get through with all makes.
My mate bought a 51 reg Celica 190 VVTLi new and it was an unmitigated disaster. In the first 20,000 miles it had total gearbox failure, two catalytic converters collapse, a broken CD player, repeated suspension geometry problems and various rattles and squeaks inside.
It's common wisdom that Toyotas are normally very good, but it's true that a badge guarantees nothing.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Wasn`t there something about (Allegedly) Piston or ring problems regarding some Toyota engines that are currently causing some engine failures in cars subject to european ( UK?) driving conditions? It was in that well known mechanics mag for car owners last month. Under " trade secrets" or something like that.
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oilrag. It just shows you cannot trust any car company not to have problems. I am absolutely thrilled with the service I have always had out of my Seat Toledo TDiSE 110 bhp, 1.9. I bought it new towards end of 1999. I am very tempted to go upmarket next time with either BMW 5 series or Mercedes E Class ( their lower model ranges). The base model E class is not as different to the higher model new C Class and so much more room and comfort. Mercedes have fixed their electrical problems. I like the look of the new BMW 5 series. Even though the seats in the BMW may be even more comfortable, the E Class has the best ride. i am scared about the latest I-Drive system in the BMW 5 series, even though they apparently have improved it greatly. Please do people have anymore info on the I Drive in the latest BMW 5 series? I would be very grateful for any information. Despite magazine tests putting the BMW 5 series ahead of the Mercedes E Class ( of course it also depends a bit on which engine one chooses), I have a suspicion the E Class is a better car. Mercedes have spent a fortune cleaning up their act. Something that surprised me, was that when I hired an old shape 200 CDI C class in April this year for 12 days and over 1,000 miles, the car has no dip stick. I must say though, hiring an upmarket car briefly is a great way ( rather expensive though) to get to know a car. Much better than the usual test drives. I drove in terrible every day city traffic in rush hour round Dublin and in rush hour continually on Ireland's M50!!!! Also many Motorway long distant drives.
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From what I see, I think people like Lexus give excellent after sales service and the car does not have variable service like the new German ones seem to. I would always like to have the freedom of changing oil whenever I want, not waiting for the computer read out. I do find certain German cars very interesting though.
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>>not waiting for the computer read out.
I don't understand the reluctance some people have to adopting this method - at least in principle.
If you use the old fashioned fixed mileage / interval system to determine servicing intervals, you have to set the interval to cover the worst case. This means that some cars are drastically over-serviced, while other cars with different usage profiles might be a little bit marginal, and could really do with more servicing.
By taking different usage into account, one of the big variables in determining service intervals can be removed - in principle this could (should?) mean that everyone will then have the same margin between when they service their cars, and when damage will occur.
The thing I'm not quite 100% sure about is if modern service intevals have been well chosen - say 99% for now! I don't think the intervals have been set so badly - if they were, we would be seeing repeats of the notorious cam wear of pintos and OHC Vauxhalls, and the technical forum would be afire with unhappy people asking about the difference between refurbished and reconditioned engines, and the relative merits of re-sleeving as opposed to re-boring and oversize pistons.
Number_Cruncher
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I would generally agree with the above - engine wear is now a rare occurance unless caused by gross abuse.
Modern lubricants must take much of the credit for the very long oil change intervals prescribed by some variable service computer systems. My VAG PD engine had its first oil change at 21k miles and appears to be in fine form with very low oil consumption. The requirements of the fleet user may well have tilted the intervals a bit though - although I use long life oil, I won't let it run that far again now that it's properly run-in.
659.
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This means that some cars are drastically over-serviced
Is that a bad thing?
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Both arguments probably make sense: 1. Taxi drivers who happen to drive diesel cars in big busy cities tend to want plenty of oil changes. I have spoken to a few in Dublin( not big like your biggest UK cities;but still terribly conjested).I know modern oils are supposed to last an amazing time. 2. Variable service intervals has got some obvious good points as well as bad. As was said here in a previous letter, there would be an incredible protest if major parts of car enjines were getting destroyed by not enough oil changes and servicing.Variable servicing obviously keeps prices down for car leasing companies etc.It may also save the planet more by having less oil changes.
I personally would prefer to have control over my oil changes and I also like a dip stick ( one well known new car didn't have one)! If something goes wrong with the computer your engine gets destroyed. Having said all this, my next car will be a well known German model with variable servicing.
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>>Is that a bad thing?
OK, it's not a catastrophe. However, for most people (i.e., not car mad deviants, taxi drivers, or bangenomics scrooges), having your car serviced is an expensive thing to do, it probably means taking time off work, and if the service intervals can be safely extended, then the vast majority of people will be happy.
We should remember that if a car company made and specified a car to suit the oily fingered proclivitites of the more extreme contingent of the Backroom, rather than the ordinary motorist, they would very soon go bust!
Number_Cruncher
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With due respect to all the interesting letters,most of the Taxi drivers I've had certainly wouldn't want to spend any more precious money than necessary. They know how to do things cheaper. I have heard fantastic stories from them, I had better not repeat them here!! Certain ones with diesel engines in Dublin kept changing oil fairly often, as they got incredible mileages out of their cars.
My brother bought a BMW 5-series estate new 2.9 diesel I think. his must have been literally one of the last pre Bangle ones with no I-Drive;but he has variable servicing. He is absolutely delighted with the car. Sorry for straying off the subject a brief moment, but I hear that the I-Drive is now fixed up and easier to use. Does anyone have any up-to-date information about it? I do like the recently revised version of the orrigional Chris Bangel shape. He is a clever designer though.
I was surprised soneone wrote that the Japanese cars mostly don't have the variable servicing.
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i.e. not car mad deviants taxi drivers or bangenomics scrooges
Which category do I fit into I wonder! Servicing my car takes an hour or 2, and costs me £40. Am I a deviant or a scrooge?! Possibly the former, as I service it twice as often as Nissan recommend! ;-)
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>>Which category do I fit into I wonder!
Oh!, anyone who takes the time to post repeatedly on here can't claim to be entirely sane and logical about cars!
:-)
Number_Cruncher
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Oh! anyone who takes the time to post repeatedly on here can't claim to be entirely sane and logical about cars!
But neither can anyone who pays £400 for a £100 service just because the garage is a main agent ;-)
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>>But neither can anyone who pays £400 for a £100 service...
Quite so. A classic case of fear, uncertainty, and doubt being used to extract cash from people.
Number_Cruincher
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