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That's appreciation in both senses, as I have just discovered that new EU regs (groan) in force this year mean that new 2-stroke outboard motors cannot be sold any more, with the result that second-hand ones are holding their value rather well. I know this because I've just bought one, which leads me to a more motoring-related question: we've just had a bank holiday influx of scooterists, some of whose machines seemed to be burning something that smelled very like Castrol R. Any ideas what it could have been?
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>>new 2-stroke outboard motors cannot be sold any more
Is the new law actually worded like that, explicitly banning 2 strokes? Or is it legislation that by limiting emissions and pollution effectively barrs conventional 2 strokes?
Number_Cruncher
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""Is the new law actually worded like that, explicitly banning 2 strokes?"
You surmise correctly, NC - the law is an emissions limit that effectively bars the burning of oil in any significant quantity. Evinrude now make a direct injection 2-stroke that meets the regulations and betters 4-strokes in most areas, so the principle won't be abandoned just yet, especially as it has particular weight and (low) maintenance benefits. Cooling isn't a problem on the water, so a lot of power can be squeezed into a small package if you can eliminate valvetrains and fire the plugs twice as often...
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>>the law is an emissions limit that effectively bars the burning of oil in any significant quantity.
Despite having a deep loathing of all things forced upon us by Europe, this might actually be a good thing - especially if it forces a change in 2 stroke technology which reduces emissions without the sacrifice of economy.
Put another way, you could argue that most of the changes in engine technology which have made modern car engines so reliable has been forced into place via emissions legislation. Without the tightening laws, we might still have points and carburettors!
Number_Cruncher
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I accept most of that, NC, but I'm not sure it should apply to small engines (say <100cc) whose exhaust output is proportionally smaller anyway. They benefit from being kept simple, which is why I wanted a 2-stroke outboard in the first place. Magneto ignition and carburettors may be basic but they're very reliable!
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..scooterists some of whose machines seemed to be burning something that smelled very like Castrol R. Any ideas what it could have been?
If they're anything like the idiots who ride scooters around here, the smell will've been the centrifugal clutch eating itself as they "rev" the engine by accelerating with the brake lever pulled. Cool eh(!!) - obviously haven't got the brains to buy a CB125 and change gear for themselves.
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Although I hold no brief for scooterists (having been a rocker rather than a mod) most of the visiting machines were old Lambrettas and Vespas with manual gearchanges. Considering how sniffy we bikers were years ago about scooters, I'm quite impressed with their apparent longevity. I saw several Lambrettas at the weekend with 60's registrations...
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Ahhh proper scooters!! They do last a long time in the hands of an enthusiast, like any vehicle. Not quite sure what the question was - a lot of modern 2-stroke oils are synthetic so they burn cleaner and don't cause a build-up in the engine (or too much smoke). Castrol R was mineral surely, so no idea why anyone would be using this in their much loved antique scooter.
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those old lambrettas will be like triggers sweeping brush
4 handles
3 new heads
hes had it for 15 years now
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Ah, gunk on a hot engine burning 'R'.
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"a lot of modern 2-stroke oils are synthetic"
I was assuming that was what I was smelling, rather than real Castrol R, which I imagine is hard to find these days. I have synthetic for the outboard, but was rather disappointed that it doesn't smell 'nice'. Mind you, it runs on 100:1, so it doesn't really smell of anything much anyway.
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They used to use Castrol R in scooters so I assume some current owners want to have the authentic smell to go with the original looks?
Blurb from a Lambretta club website, "...If you love the sound of a two-stroke engine and the smell of petrol mixed with 2-6% oil, ... this is the club for you..."
A quick google for Castrol R shows its still available:
www.rgracing.co.uk/Castrol_Classic_Oils.htm
I dont know much about them but had several mates who went through a scooter phase. In the flat I used to live in with a mate, we had a half-built '60's TV175 in the living room next to the telly for over a year.
If the engine got gunged up they would have stripped it and cleaned it out themselves and it wouldnt matter if it was off the road for a month as it was just a hobby thing. Actually they would realise they could not rebuild it and take it down to Armando's in Sheffield (scooter specialist) and let them do the tricky bits!
;o)
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Thanks for that. To judge from the smoke, the ones I saw were running on 6% at least!
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I always thought Bel Ray smelt nicer.
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"Bel Ray"
Can't say I've ever sniffed it wittingly. Is it similar?
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Mind you it runs on 100:1 so it doesn't really smell of anything much anyway.
Unlike my Seagull, which needs 12:1.
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"Unlike my Seagull, which needs 12:1"
That's an improvement - they were on 10:1 when I first went boating! Probably why they never wear out...
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Mind you, it runs on 100:1, so it doesn't really smell of anything much anyway<<
Better ask the fish! anything much above idle is usually exhausted "thru-hub" (of the prop) under the water!. ;-)
Billy
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............... Castrol R was mineral surely ................>>
Castrol R was (and still is) castor oil which is vegetable oil and not mineral oil at all!
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Or as the former Mrs JBJ used to say: "You mineral the same..." :-)
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My Suzuki(oil injected)didn't smoke around town or blasting down the motorway but on changing from one to the other the countryside disappeared.
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Mine was a GT550 triple - loads a smoke.
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If the iminent death of two strokes means the end of leaf-blowers it can't come soon enough. What was wrong with a rake?
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If the iminent death of two strokes means the end of leaf-blowers it can't come soon enough. What was wrong with a rake?
A rake gathers leaves into piles so that they can be picked up. A blower does what it says on the box - blows the leaves all over the place so that they can cause a nuisance somewhere else. A bit like a duster - spreads the dust around more evenly so that you don't notice it.
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Castrol R was (and still is) castor oil which is vegetable oil and not mineral oil at all!
That more than explains the difference in smell between Castrol R and modern synthetic 2-stroke oils then!
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On a slightly different note, with all the Lambrettas and Vespas still around, and the occasional Bantam. Whatever happened to all the Tiger Cubs? Perhaps they rattled apart until they dissolved in their own oil leaks, or is it proof of the longevity of two-strokes?
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Whatever happened to Orbital? Weren't they an Australian company with two strokes that did huge miles per gallon? I had a GT500 when they first came out, good vibrations. I also had an old 350LC that ran on R, the pistons and heads looked like french polishing when I came to rebore it.
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Emissions killed Orbital plus electric supercharging and complicated injection system.Theory was good-practice killed it.
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"the longevity of two-strokes"
They are pretty low-maintenance (the new Evinrude outboard requires its first service after 3 years!) and because the engine bearings are designed to work with minimal lubrication, they can be very durable. I think the oil (a little bit of which tends to get everywhere) helps preserve them, too!
There are some very old outboards still going strong and I've seen some 50-year old Atco lawnmowers still in action...
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............. Whatever happened to all the Tiger Cubs? Perhaps they rattled apart until they dissolved in their own oil leaks or is it proof of the longevity of two-strokes?
The Triumph Tiger Cub is a 4-stroke!!!! (single cylinder OHV, ..........200cc from memory). The BSA version was the C15 which was also a 4 stroke single and OHV, but 250cc.
Many Tiger Cubs are still used in "Classic Pre-65" (as in pre 1965) trials competitions. Although they are usually very modified versions of the original design.
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"The Triumph Tiger Cub is a 4-stroke!"
I think that was the point. You don't see many C15's about either...
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"The Triumph Tiger Cub is a 4-stroke!" I think that was the point. You don't see many C15's about either...
Yes, I realised this after I'd posted the message!
"Engage brain before operating keyboard....." and all that.
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"Engage brain before operating keyboard....."
If only we all did! But it would be less fun.
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I've just been looking again at a Lambretta website I found yesterday. I never thought of them in terms of fuel consumption before, but I'm quite surprised to see the quoted figures ranging from 100 to 135 mpg! So yes they are burning oil by design, but using so little fuel overall.
www.lcgb.co.uk/scooters/li3-facts.html
The downside is of course the top speed is 50 - 60mph; but having ridden my mates SX200, I'm not sure I'd want to go much faster than that on one! (But then I'm not a biker).
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A colleague of mine has a Gilera 180 (I think) with continuously variable transmission. He's tweaked it a bit, so it gives about 24hp, and it is astonishingly quick up to 50 or 60. Ideal commuter weapon, really, but I still prefer a 'proper' bike...
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The last two-stroke I had was a Mach IV Kawasaki 750cc triple. It was the original blue one, that went rather quickly (in a straight line). I did some production racing on it but it had a prodigious thirst, and it definitely needed a fuel stop for a one-hour race. Almost no power at low rpm, you could open the throttle wide in a high gear, and just got a big moan from the intakes. Once you hit 3,000 rpm, it was time to hang on until power dropped off at about 7000. It was an excellent tool for monowheeling, and would lift the front wheel off the ground in first and second without much (any) provocation. Just the ticket for a bike-mad 21-year-old. I'm not quite sure how I survived the few years I owned it before moving on to the Z900..
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>>The last two-stroke I had was a Mach IV Kawasaki 750cc triple
So that's why they scrapped Concord - far too slow at Mach 2 ;>)
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I hope 2 strokes are also banned from our roads. It should have happened long ago. Even with synthetic oil used at a lower rate they are still gross polluters. Much cleaner petrol engined cars had to have catylists fitted fifteen years ago.
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"they are still gross polluters"
Not as bad as you think, although I grant that 40-year old scooters running at 16:1 can be a bit smokey! Unlike sump oil, 2-stroke oil is at least designed to be burned and the combustion products are mostly biodegradable. My outboard runs at 100:1 and I've had cars that used more oil!
I suppose the days of 750cc triples are forever over, but as a light, simple power source, the small 2-stroke is hard to beat. As a means of covering a few miles daily, I suspect that a 100kg bike or scooter is a lot kinder to the planet than a 1000kg car, irrespective of the fuel.
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