Personally I treat others the way I'd like to be treated myself unless of course I think they're trying to pull a fast one then it's gloves off.
Guilty.
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>>>Personally I treat others the way I'd like to be treated myself
My view, also.
Clk Sec
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What does your conscience tell you, oilrag? At the point of handing a car over to a dealer, the dealer is entitled to expect the car to be in the condition in which he valued it, except for any normal wear and tear suffered in the meantime.
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L\'escargot.
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Two or more wrongs dont make a right.
The original dealer was wrong in not fixing the choke.
The breakdown guy was wrong in over revving it (should have been held responsible).
The indy was wrong to rip you off re the bottom end repairs and not sort the cam follower noise (should have been held responsible).
However you were also wrong to have the car valued in a certain condition and not declare issues that had occured between the valuation and the sale.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though ........
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I am so glad that I am noty the only one to have done that!!
I have been feeling guilty about it for years (although not so guilty to do something about it).
I had a series 2 RS Turbo, and 3 days before I was to px it the cambelt snapped.
I fitted a new belt and it ran like a bag poo except for between 2 & 3000 revs, so i carfully drove into the dealers and round the back and very swiftly did the deal.
The twist?
ever since, I wished I'd spent the money on the RS instead of the px.
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Aim low, expect nothing & dont be disappointed
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"Did it never at any time occur to you that this was wrong ?"
You are not grasping the point of the post, *of course its wrong*, and two wrongs dont make a right.
But having been shafted myself by The supplying dealer, the recovery guy, and the small independent.
The question is whether its ever justified to respond in kind to the trade,
The garage in question who did an unneccessary re ring and shells, I found later later was a `favourite` of the recovery service.
This breakdown happened out of my home area and the recovery guy, his obvious well oiled relationship with this 3 man shed of a garage, seemed like one of those semi horror movies set in the remote backwoods.
The `neediness` of the three guys working in the garage was palpable in their eyes when the recovery guy within my earshot told them of my occupation. ( No doubt I could afford a big bill )
Three months later this garage which was little more than a big wooden shed, had gone bust.
Someone said, "why write this"? Because it was a moral dilema at the time and also a human interest story I though some forum members may be interested in.
Regards.
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Just to add, this was 25 years ago.
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Just to add this was 25 years ago.
And it's obviously been preying on your mind ever since!
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L\'escargot.
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I'm not aware that any special moral circumstances apply to "the trade". The question you're asking is whether you were justified to become a cheat, a liar and a fraudster by the actions of other cheats, liars and fraudsters. Only you can answer the question.
I wish you luck in resolving your dilemma.
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The trouble is, that every time you shaft a dealer, directly or indirectly you actually shaft some other poor punter of his. Be it ending up with your old dog, or paying over the odds for another motor becuase the dealer has to recover his loss.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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What other motoring-related misdemeanours do you want to get off your chest, oilrag? Speeding, failing to stop after an accident? Let's have them all here and now so that we can see the real oilrag. ;-)
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L\'escargot.
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"whether you were justified to become a cheat, a liar and a fraudster by the actions of other cheats, liars and fraudsters."
You sure thats enough to cover it Ubi :)
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[AC Grayling mode-ON]
The answer is supplied by the fact of you asking the question: if you thought yourself not guilty it simply wouldn't have occured to you to ask the question, what you're really looking for is absolution, which is different entirely. No-one here can give you absolution - only the 'shaftee', so unless he reads BR & recognises your tale & says 'Oilrag, it's okay, we fixed the problem cheaply & it fell easily within our standard refurbishment budget, in fact we made a good profit on the car, so relax, enjoy your life..don't feel guilty..' . So, you are guilty & cannot be absolved (unless the above happens) - but all is not lost! You may well have been forgiven, even in the absence of direct absolution, by the 'shaftee' holding no grudge or ill-feeling towards you. After 25 years, this may well be the case.
[AC Grayling mode-OFF]
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It seems to me that Oilrag is using the phrase "moral dilemma" in a rather unusual way.
My understanding is that a moral dilemma is a situation when one is placed in a position that whatever one does, one is being forced to do something that is unethical - i.e. one is forced to do something that one ought not to do.
(For a discussion of the concept, see plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-dilemmas/#ConMorD...l )
It seems to me that there is nothing unethical at all about telling the garage that your car has suffered a bit of mishap.
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ok here's my one:
back in the mid 80's a bedford rascal type of van hit my parked Capri big time. It hit the drivers door and front wing, when it got to the front wheel it dug in and then sumersalted down the line of parked cars writing off three more and damaging two others. (van driver had a scratched arm!)
Now the insurers wrote my car off and let me keep it giving me £750. A local cowboy type bodyshop put on a door, wing, wheel, front bumper etc from a scrapper and resprayed it for £150 oh, and built up the door seals to cover the gap as the body had twisted slightly. The resulting 'thing' drove sideways but looked presentable so it was off to the dealers to trade in for something better - a Datsun 160JSSS coupe. When presented with the form asking 'has it ever been written off?' I simply said 'I'm not the first owner so I don't know the full history' 'fair enough' says the salesman giving me £750 for it against the already keenly priced Datsun - couldn't get out of there quick enough! That was in the days when I was young and irresponsible - now I'm old and.......
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normd2
You were technically correct in stating what you did. As the damage to your car was caused by another's error, the car wasn't - and couldn't be - written-off by HIS insurer; only your own.
They were merely compensating you for your losses; the damaged car still belongs to you in a claim against a third-party [or their insurer, acting as their agent, in this case.] They don't purchase the wreckage as would happen if you had claimed against your own policy.
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ah! is that what happend? always wondered as I've never been offered the chance to keep the car before after a claim.
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[AC Grayling mode-ON] >> [AC Grayling mode-OFF]
Please forgive me - but who he(she)?
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Please forgive me - but who he(she)?
A slightly pompous sounding (forgive me AC!) prof. of philosophy at Birkbeck Coll. Lon. - he used to be flavour-of-the-month clever bloke on high-brow TV discussion programmes (and other media) on problems of moral dilemna - looks a bit like me, only older!
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"every time you shaft a dealer, directly or indirectly you actually shaft some other poor punter of his."
Heres an example,of *not* shafting the dealer, but indirectly, another punter ( eventually) ended up being shafted by one of my pxs.
Years ago, SWMBOS learner car was an old Polo.
It was 11 years old, had low oil pressure when bought, but was cheap, bought privately.
Its suffered real abuse, bent wheels, an accident which needed a front wing, repaired and straightened bumper, replacement door.
I did the repairs myself, lucky to get the right colour door from a breaker and getting another colour wing ` blown over`cheaply at a paint shop.
Later it was involved in an accident on an icy bend and clipped the kerb sideways rolling onto its side in a field.
No one else was involved and I repaired it again, another new wing ( other side) and another door, again from a breaker, lucky again right colour. I also replaced a wheel and spring.
Now it had both doors and wings off other cars, one front door window had a security mark that was ground off, the other the security mark from another car. ( I think they were reg numbers in those days)
It had pre existing low oil pressure ( covered by the previous owner by several cans of oil thickener ) and was now starting to overheat on hot days.
SMBO, passed her test and time for it to be moved on. Now I was really concerned about some old boy buying this as a " reliable Volkswagen" and PXd it at the dealer as we replaced it with a new car.
I made a point of the accident damage, replacement doors, wings etc and straightened bumper which was held plastic to metal, by obvious stainless steel screws.
We got a few hundred for it, but the main thing being to safely move it on with all its problems fully declared to the dealer.
6 months later, I saw it at a filling station and got to chatting briefly with its new owner,
*he had bought it recently from an elderly couple*
My heart sank thinking about them and how they must have slowly found out about non original doors, wings, the big dent in the floor from the accident. etc and then had to sell it , no doubt at a loss.
I guess to the main dealer, there would be no concern about the declared damage. It would be a `unit` and would go to auction.
A small trader would pick it up at auction, a victim himself? or would he be aware of ground out security marks on one door, different registration on the other? and other visible signs....
But the elderly couple? terrible to have them become victims of our old car but how do you avoid it? Full information had been passed on at Px time.
I wish I had scrapped it as I would not really have been worse off in the deal without it, but it still had a couple of years use in it for someone who could accept its true condition.
So how did the elderly couple get caught out?
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"what you're really looking for is absolution"
No, not at all, I`m guilty :) But just seeking interesting debate.
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"what you're really looking for is absolution"
No, not at all, I`m guilty :) But just seeking interesting debate.
That's what absolution requires & assumes.
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"That's what absolution requires & assumes."
Only if you accept "sin" as a concept :)
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Thou hast sinned my son (and not for the first time eh!), though thou has now confessed (and about time to!) and is forgiven (actually the salesman is retired and is living in Clacton and cannot remember a noisy Fiesta) so thou can now be at peace ...............
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"though thou has now confessed (and about time to!) and is forgiven"
Thank you father, I can remove the cilice after all these years.....
:)
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>>I can remove the cilice after all these years.....
Only if you really want to my son
;-)
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:)
I`m abandoning the thread at this point, thanks to all who contributed :)
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My lease vehicle could shaft someone not awares. Who would think a 53 plate Mondeo TDCi is rusting. Mine is on rear doors.
Not picked up sooner (i.e. I spot a bit of rust and sealer pulled off by boyshop to reveal more) because lease/hire companies do not pay for checks on bodywork. Therefore warranty void. But they keep most for so little time they do not rust.
Lease company accept problem and will go to auction as is... when I said oh that might affect value they said yes it might. But buyer might not notice. This car might need two rear doors by then!
Buyer beware of a black Mondeo TDCi Ghia on 53 plate orignally from Manchester area coming up in auction in October or later! It's rusting so check doors.
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I know a dealer who sells a great deal of cars at keen prices so is not generous on part exchanges. He used to chat to me about the deals he had done. One young customer agreed to buy a car. He was asked if his part ex had been in any accidents. No said the customer. The dealer checked and found out it had been seriously damaged. He rang the lad and told him to come in first thing in the morning. We were chatting about it the night before. The dealer said he would "fine him " i.e. he would keep his deposit and not let him have the car ! I said that was a little harsh. He told me he had listened to me and only fined him half the amount -£ 125 and this was over 15 years ago !
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