Last week
For 'stealing' abandoned golf balls 6 months prison
This week
Driving without a full licence
No MOT
No Number plate
Faulty Lights
Defective tyres
Defective brakes
+ 3 other offences not detailed
9 in all
Ran over and killed a 9 year old £200 and a year's ban
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Which 'neck of the woods' did this happen in then?
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Did this little diddums' daddy smack his legs as a child? Aawww, there there, its not your fault, no, you are not responsible for your actions. Lets send you on a safari to show you the error of your ways.
Did the golf ball collector receive a warning from the police before? Yes, and thats why he had to be locked up to protect society from him and his evil ways.
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Add to the mix the gold balls were at the bottom of a lake!
Sounds entirely consistant to me. The police *really* do think speeding is worse than killing a child.
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The sentence is decided by the court, not by the police.
It certainly sounds far too lenient on the face of it, I would have expected £100 minimum for each of the car/documentation defects and a longer ban.
It's difficult to comment on the child's death without knowing more of the circumstances e.g. was the accident avoidable?. If speeding over the limit was a factor then I would have expected that charge to be included, but the published list is incomplete, so maybe it was. According to the paper the condition of the car did not contribute to the accident.
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How can the anti-police ranters turn sentencing (Court function) and deciding whether to prosecute (CPS function) into another anti-police diatribe?.
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Trevor Potter wrote:
>
> How can the anti-police ranters turn sentencing (Court
> function) and deciding whether to prosecute (CPS function)
> into another anti-police diatribe?.
Trevor,
Its easy peasy. There are two possible answers to this.
Either, a) because they talk utter twaddle, or, b) as a game.
For a while, some time back, there was a little game on the site, whereby it was a challenge to see how many posts it would take to get the thread twisted onto Citröens, Moggie Minors, or diesel vs petrol. See I've done it for all three. Not very subtly I admit and it would not have counted as a result in the proper rules.
It's all a game you see.
Take care, have a good weekend.
Stuart
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Mr Trevor Potter, the self-appointed censor of this forum speaks again.
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Beats self-appointedv ranter of the forum any day.
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If your definition of censor is one who points out erroneous logic, I plead guilty.
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No, I think he was thinking more of 'sanctimonious osser' or something like that!
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Probably, Trevor, because the police are the visible end of the system.
Unless you have some knowledge of the legal/court system you would not know that the CPS existed.
Even if you go to court you only see the police as witnesses, the CPS does not appear in public.
In the old days it WAS the police who prepared the prosecution, not any more.
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Lawyers tell us we can not be prosecuted for the results of our actions. just the actions themselves.
A dopey woman - unlicenced, uninsured - pulled out of a side road in front of my pal and killed him.
She was fined £125 for driving without due care and £125 for the licence offence. Nothing for causing the death
Any yet Gary Hart fell asleep and was convicted of causing the death of 10 people.
The law is an ass!
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Brian "The sentence is decided by the court, not by the police."
I agree the courts are a joke.
The decision to investigate, build a case and prosecute the golf ball guy[1] was entirely down to the police.
The decision to send a mate to *court* for 98 in a DC NSL was entirely down to the police.
They have to option to caution.
[1] Owner of one of *three* companies that do this work in the UK? Was he behind with his bribe money???
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I meant to reply to Dave rather than the original thread !
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Dave, there is actually another link in the chain, which is the Crown Prosecution Service.
It is they who decide which charges are to be brought, prepare the papers, arrange for witnesses etc.
The police decide whether to make an arrest initially, investigate, collect evidence and charge the suspect, but from that point the CPS takes over.
If a case fails it is more often than not because the CPS have fallen down.
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Well how could the CPS argue that there was no case against the golf ball guy?
Finding isn't keeping it's technically theft.
A similar case could be made against the other two golf ball diving companies in the UK - it wasn't. Why not. Not 'co of the courts or the CPS.
Because of the criminal's friends in blue.
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Golf balls ARE a case of finders/keepers...
If the player has abandoned them - ie whacked into a lake, into the deep rough, etc, then decides not to look, it is a declared abandonment.
Was the bloke prosecuted done for something else - ie trespass?
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Trespass is a civil, not criminal, offence and would not be prosicuted by the Police or CPS but by the trespassed party.
John R
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Ian ,
We can't be prosecuted for trespass. It's a civil offence.
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Very famous Fen chap called Dennis.
What are these sheds for Dennis?. "Well I've got me stuff in there I've found what people don't know they've lost yet".
So what do you do with it? "Ah you see the longer it's in there the less it's theirs and the more it's mine".
Can't fault that logic.
David
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Dave,
Colin Montgomery, the golfer, wrote in a paper the other day that lake-golfballs are seen as abandoned and finder is keeper in that case.
Now they are going to import lake-balls from the US to maintain what was a £6 million industry
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I recently picked up two old wheels and tyres which had been dumped on an illegal rubbish tip near my home, to prop up my self-built sports car until I get some decent wheels. Perhaps this too was theft (I'd call it tidying up the countryside) and I now fear the arrival of the boys in blue. Perhaps I'd better take them back, but then I'd probably get done for fly-tipping....
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Did not the Golf Club make the complaint that their balls were being lifted?
Complaint followed by action - what more do you want?
DVD
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DWD,
No, the club said they were not aware he was collecting the balls. He use to call at night.
Police were answering a false alarm at the club and found yer man with two bags of balls in his his wet hands so they nicked him.
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Dunno. It was reported on the radio as theft.
There are three diving companies in the UK that recover balls form lakes and re-sell. He owned one of these.
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DVD. I'm not a golfer but I'm sure the golf club don't own the balls. It's individual players.
I'm told that golfers adopt a find some / lose some approach to balls.
Anyway what to we care more about Heroin or Golf balls?
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you can only be prosecuted if there was intent to damage/harm or resultant damage/harm.
Although, since it happened after I left the UK, I am not sure how it may or may not be affected by the illegal gathering stuff.
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Sounds like an interesting 4BBB (four ball better ball) match- the Ranters v the Censors - any nominations for the two teams please!?
The suggestion that golf clubs can lay claim to lost balls in any case is quite intriguing. I realise that golf is a test of skill, but it is the golf club's hazards which create the loss, and it would appear somewhat inequitable that players unfortunate or unskilled enough to end up in a natural or man-made water hazard should suffer the double whammy of permanently losing a ball as well as having an increased score for the hole concerned.
Curiously enough, there has also been a tendency over recent years for commercially owned, rather than private members' clubs, to make recovery of balls from water hazards more difficult by players through the use of coloured water, steep sides to hazards, particularly if manmade, encouraging weed growth - or any combination of the above. Probably put in pike too - and alligators if they could!
The Rules of Golf, at Rule 12-2 "Identifying Ball", states that "Each player should put an identification mark on his ball". If he does so, and reports exact details of the lost ball to the club, presumably he can maintain that he retains ownership of the ball. Almost inevitably, the next move would be for clubs, especially "owned" ones, to charge for recovery if they do recover balls, and rent if they don't!
The only ray of hope for inexpert golfers is that a mishit ball will occasionally do a "Barnes Wallis" and ricochet back to dry land.
Sorry MBRM, I almost forgot to remain on topic - I once hit a Golf Driver ....
More seriously, Dave is on track with his views, not least "what to we care more about, heroin or golf balls?", and sentencing should reflect this accordingly.
Andy
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I still maintain that when the ball lands in the water and as the original post states, then the real owner, unless he takes retrieval action forthwith, abandons possession and ownership in the article which then passes to the Golf Club.
So Alwyn, if plod comes along as you say and he catches someone (face blackened at night as result of AP Diving Mask and wet suit hood - old 1800 Vagrancy Act offence) taking the balls from the lake then he is pinching from the Golf Club, unless of course he has authority from the Club to do so which does not seem to be the case.
Any Theft is a crime and attracts 'considerable paper work'. One section to be completed requires details of the Injured Person i.e. from whom the balls were stolen. I doubt this would be 'person or persons unknown' and most likely to be the Golf Club.
Whats with this game of golf. I thought the idea was to get your balls into a little hole not into the wet.
DVD.
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"I thought the idea was to get your balls into a little hole not into the wet"
Ah yes, but mine have a built-in water homing device.
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"I still maintain that when the ball lands in the water and as the original post states, then the real owner, unless he takes retrieval action forthwith, abandons possession and ownership in the article which then passes to the Golf Club."
Say someone kicks a football which lands in my back garden. They do not retrieve the ball for whatever reason.
Is the ball now my property, and can I sell it back to them?
How long does it have to be left for it to be considered abandoned.
(no doubt the answer to this last one is no case law, therefore it all depends)
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Going back to the original point of this thread (6 months for trivial offence, pathetic penalty for killing) the discrepancy is explained in part by the golf ball case being heard in the Crown Court, driving case (probably, I don't actually know) in the magistrates.
Regards,
Rob F
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I agree with DVD - once ownership is abandoned by the golfer, best title to the balls is that of the landowner, as for anything abandoned (treasure - or as it used to be 'treasure trove' excepted) in the absence of a better claimant (eg the original owner of a ladder stolen and abandoned by the thief in your garden, who would still own it, not you).
He seems to have 'appropriated property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it' as per Theft Act 1968 s.1 - but where is the required dishonesty for a theft?
I assume this was inferred from the fact that the diving took place furtively at night, rather than overtly (animus furandi anyone?)
Seems to me, if the jury were not misdirected on that point he will stay convicted, but I cannot imagine the sentence standing (necessary to protect the public? Other courses of action would not be appropriate? Hmm!)
Wouldn't the obvious eventual solution for the future be for the lakeball collectors to approach the club and get permission - probably for a small share of the proceeds which would then be reflected in the resale price - which would avoid the need to dive at night and would also avoid the whole 'theft' issue?
If the permission ism't forthcoming - then yes, this will be theft. But probably still not 6 months worth!
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