Just back from another holiday in France. They really spend a load of money on their roads, and make the towns look all nice with proper granite cobbles and proper pavements with clear and distinctive curb stones marking the boundary between pavement and road. (better for blind people aswell as looking nice).
Their roads are smooth and quiet in town and out of town.
On the other hand we in UK have noisy ugly roads full of potholes, and noisy surfaces like concrete and gravel/tarmac composite.
A road near me (in UK) has just been scraped off (by one of those surface grinding machines) and they have resurfaced the whole road, they have nearly finished and the finished result is all bumpy. In France it would be very smooth.
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I think it all comes down to cheap roads for a cheap country. The UK is 'penny daft'. When the roads have been 'upraded' near me and resurfaced they are full of potholes and defects within two years. The public do not really seem to have an interest after all many people change cars within 3 years or so. This country also seems to have a very unhealthy interest in speed humps. If think that it is fair to say that the roads in the UK are a good reflection of the level of public interest.
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Bit of a sweeping generalisation there, horatio.
France does seem to have the right idea about getting by-passes and autoroutes built, rather than dithering for years over things like the fate of local newts that are not credited with the instinct to move somewhere else when life gets a bit hazardous.
But, believe me, there are plenty of carp road surfaces here as well and not just in rural areas. Apparently simple road repair works can also take what seems like forever, thanks to the 35-hour working week, 2-hour lunch breaks, etc, etc. And French contractors have no qualms about sending you on a 20km compulsory detour because they can't be bothered to operate one-way working for a couple of hundred metres!
I guess that, as in the UK, the state of the roads in any area depends on local and central government funding priorities.
Luckily, the overall positive experience that is France makes it easy to turn a blind eye to the odd bumpy bits. :-)
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Do a forum search for the word 'tax'. Then read a few of the posts you find and see how many are supportive of the UK government raising money to invest in the country's infrastructure. Then extrapolate from this little sample to the country as a whole and get an idea of the political problems inherent in raising actual money to make things better. Raise taxes and people - without thinking - squeal 'robbery'! Wait and see how many comments this generates to the effect that taxes are all wasted anyway. };---)
That's how we ended up with so many awful quick-fix schemes like PPP and PFI to disguise the capital cost of schools and hospitals; so we, the public, end up paying vast amounts to private organizations just because we, the same public, won't admit that certain things (and I don't just mean roads) are worth having and so worth paying for properly. I'm afraid we get the government we deserve.
Things are very different in France. They pay a lot more in direct taxation than we do, but they generally worry less about the superficial aspects of life. Things aren't perfect over there, either - as I'm sure Mike H and our other French habitués can confirm.
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People scream not 'robbery' but 'waste'. Fine, if increased taxes improve the quality of life, then increase them. I have yet to see that they do.
For instance:
Mr Brown's tax and spend policies have generated the current housing boom, by creating artificial jobs - over 50% of the workforce is employed by the state - and increasing money supply.
Spending on the NHS has increased at an extraordinary rate - yet to what benefit?
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This could go rapidly OT but in my experience (and that's what matters, not what spindoctors and those whose job it is to berate the Govt say) the NHS service my family have received over the last few years has been fantastic.
This has included my wife having major surgery twice, my daughter being born and having surgery when 9 months old, my 90+ year old grandparents receiving treatment. The local provision of health services both routine and emergency in our area is second to none. We have needed an emergency doctor 4 times in recent years and each time we have seen one within an hour of calling NHS Direct.
If the price for this is potholed roads so be it. If we want to remove the potholes we'll have to pay more.
The company upgrading the underground has just gone into administration - another privatisation disaster which will cost us anyway if we want the work doing.
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jobs - over 50% of the workforce is employed by the state - and increasing money supply.
I think you'll find that it's not public sector employees who are paying half a million pounds and more for two-and-a-bit bedroom Boot houses in South West London. Public sector pay for all but the very top grades ranges from terrible to barely tolerable.
Of course the roads are repaired these days by highly-motivated and incentivised private sector workers, heroes every one, whose managers are efficient, highly trained and customer driven, unlike their public-sector counterparts. Sarcasm? Moi?
The NHS I have been very impressed with of late. It's there when you need it, which is hugely reassuring.
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>>I think you'll find that it's not public sector employees who are paying half >>a million pounds and more for two-and-a-bit bedroom Boot houses in >>South West London.
I never suggested that they were. But they add to demand for housing stock and therefore contribute to the rise in house prices.
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I never suggested that they were. But they add to demand for housing stock and therefore contribute to the rise in house prices.
You mean like the 2 million unemployed contributed to the last housing boom? Oh, wait...
It's not individual housebuyers who are driving this boom, but developers of one kind or another. I believe we are heading back to the days of Rackman and Rigsby.
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>>It's not individual housebuyers driving this boom, it's developers and investors.
It's everybody. And why? Because money supply is so high... because Mr Brown has been incredibly lax in his fiscal policies. All those public sector computer projects putting billions into the economy. All those public sector employees supplementing their salaries with buy to let mortgages on easily borrowed money.
Reduce money supply, reduce inflation, reduce house price inflation.
______________________________
The above should not be construed as a recommendation or advice. Be
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easily borrowed money.
Finally we get to the nub of it. It's developers (including buy to let-ers) I tell you. A lot of those buy to let-ers are retired and borrowing on their equity.
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I have to agre with the first 3 comments Carl, MH & WdB. Yes it was a sweeping statement, but lets just say that's the impression I get from visiting Britanny regularly, and from Calais - Grenoble.
The other thing is that they have nice roundabouts with flowers and 'art' pieces in the centre. And they have narrow lanes with concrete walls either side leading up to the roundabouts which slows down traffic (without the need for speedbumps) and presumably reduces accidents.
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France is better at central planning - see grand Napoleon's Paris layout, versus London's historic chaos and market forces - and I guess some roads too reflect this.
Nonetheless, I think our motorways and signposting for example are top quality. In Ireland, signs only get you halfway, then leave you stranded, even in Dublin.
We seem too, to be poor at enforcing co-operation between utility companies, so we have multiple re-surfacing carried out by them within a couple of years of any Government work, which, despite contractual obligations, is never as good as the original. This ruins the roads most of us use daily, urban, suburban and B roads.
Drains!! Why are they never flush with the surface. Life must be appaling for cyclists.
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"Drains!! Why are they never flush with the surface"
When laid they are - drive a few 44 tonners over them and they don't stay that way. We've just had all the ones near us replaced and relaid so they will be flush for a few months.
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>...if increased taxes improve the quality of life, then increase them. I have yet to see that they do.
That was my point, really. By trying to disguise capital investment in all these semi-private schemes, the government has given us the worst of both worlds. Yes, the total tax take is higher, but much (by no means all - there have been some genuine improvements) of the extra money disappears into the private side of the 'partnership'.
You can trace this back to the 1980s, when we had a government determined to end the influence of the unions on public services. There was undoubtedly a problem there to solve, but as tends to happen, they went too far and ended up greatly diminishing the idea of public services as something in which we all have an interest. People came to see low rates of income tax as the natural way, so now any government that wants to improve things has either to challenge that assumption head on, or to resort to subterfuge and disguise. My beef against the Blair government is that it had the mandate to do the former but (for fear of Rupert Murdoch?) chickened out and did the latter instead.
Hmm, chicken and beef in one sentence - sandwich, anyone?
}:---)
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I don't miss the road surfaces, though they are far from perfect where we are.
I do miss cats eyes though. Such a simple idea but makes motorway nighttime driving very safe and easy.
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"Why are British roads so rubbish?"
Could it be deliberate, to prevent yuou being disappointed by the towns they take you to?
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The other thing is that they have nice roundabouts with flowers and 'art' pieces in the centre. >>
True - I've seen them and very nice they are too! But we couldn't have them in this country because the scrotes would vandalise them and/or the do-as-you-likeys would nick 'em!
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I think the thing with roads and other transport infrastructure is that politically it can only ever be a vote loser and not a vote winner. To explain those that are negatively affected by improvements eg new bypasses, extra runways or perhaps by non-improvements - those carping about potholes vote against you whereas those who benefit from improvements take it all for granted and don't give you any credit for it...
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I am not sure of my facts but I think that money collected from one source (motorists say) is not spent on them ie the funds are not ring fenced. Taxation income goes into a vast pot of Government cash and so the reason we have carp roads is that less than 20% of what is collected from motorists is spent on motoring matters.
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But in my memory the A25 from Lille to Dunkirk is the worst, most uncomfortable road I've ever been on, and the A12 in the Inntal has tramlining worse than anything I've ever seen in this country - and it doesn't look like they plan to fix it, as if they ware, they wouldn't need to put up the 'spurinnen' signs
And as for the 1100 miles I've just done in Ireland, well, that made the M62 and A580 look good. And if the 'least car friendly town' list included Ireland, I think Cork and Kinsale would be fighting for first place !
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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>...less than 20% of what is collected from motorists is spent on motoring matters.
Of course. Taxation doesn't work like that and never has done - any more than the income tax collected from quantity surveyors is spent entirely for the benefit of quantity surveyors.
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I think it?s just poor workmanship in the UK, couple by a lack of inertia on the part of the public sector employees overseeing them.
The flagged pavement outside my parents house was replaced recently ? about a third of the flags instantly cracked and just looked terrible. My dad complained to the council who said it was nothing to do with them, it was the fault of the contractor. ?Can?t they be required to fix it?? my Dad asked. ?No? the council person said!
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How can it be 'the fault of the contractor'? Reminds me of a holiday house we rented in France a few years ago. The shower room had a tiled floor but the levels were all wrong and the water ran everywhere but where it ought to. The (English) owner's response to our comments (and to numerous others, to judge by a visitors' book going back years) was 'nothing to do with me - it's these awful French workmen I have to deal with'.
It's his house - and it's the council's pavement!
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Over 95% world's paved surfaces are worse off compared to the average British road. That is a conservative estimate, it could be as high as 98-99%.
Britain is a wet country, lots of rain plays havoc on the road structure. For example, roads in the middle east need very little maintenance, and roads in tropical countries need even more maintenance compared to British roads.
It is comforting to think that grass is always greener on the other side. The reality is rather different.
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WDB - tax certainly has worked like that in the past. The thing on the windscreen was a reciept for a contribution the "Road Fund" and it was called the Road Fund Licence! Probably now used to pay for TB's bodyguards or some other pointless and naff projects!
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The mention of 'themed' French roundabouts is spot on. I've become so taken with some of the ideas I've started snapping them.
Anybody who wants to lighten up after reading this interesting but heavy discussion is welcome to emailed pix of a couple of roundabouts near me - one featuring an 8ft thunder-thighed naked woman and the other a giant dragonfly with its backside (for want of a better word) to the traffic!
Beats counting potholes any day...
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>>an 8ft thunder-thighed naked woman
This we have to see - there must be some way you can get it uploaded to the picture pages ?
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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WDB - tax certainly has worked like that in the past. The thing on the windscreen was a reciept for a contribution the "Road Fund" and it was called the Road Fund Licence! Probably >>
There are a couple of threads elsewhere on the site with detail but essentially the Road Fund appeared just after the Great War and was abolished in the mid/late twenties by a chancellor called Winston Churchill!
The concept of reserving a tax to a particular class of spending has long been anathema to the UK Treasury
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