Something that someone said on the Citroen C6 thread made me think - are journos doing us any favours by being over critical if a car is say comfort bias or value bias etc?
Value for money seems to rarely come into it anymore and the expectation is that a car costing five grand should be compared to a ten grand car. A city car should apparently ride and handle like a sportscar/limo and have the performance to match.
This annoys me often because we now have cars which are becoming so similar in what they offer, there is far less choice - if you want an economy based car and dont mind something with a few less frills and a harder ride, not such sharp handling and are willing to do without an airbag coming at you from every corner, there is no real option - why? Because we are told that the car should be good at everything and thats just not possible.
I wish there was an acceptability of a car being average in some ways to enable it to be superb in others.
So the C6 doesnt handle like a go-kart! Big deal, if you wanted that you would buy something else, but if you want to be isolated from the world and have your journey as cosseting as possible, why shouldnt a car maker produce a car that is more comfort biased?
And on that subject, if we are to be spend more time in traffic jams and suffer more and more pot-holed roads, I know id rather be isolated from it then thumping down a pothole every few minutes while I inch home through traffic just because I wanted handling so good that it cannot be legally exploited on the road.
It just seems like car makers are being driven into making cars so generic, they just end up average at everything. How on earth did we end up with 4x4's that look the part but wets its sump guard at the thought of a piece of grass?
Am I the only person who wants to see more cars which have a true talent at the expense of being average ( though acceptable ) at other things?
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I hate the motoring journo's and see absolutly no point in listening to what they say.
They harp on about the quality of VW's and German cars in general yet i see more VW's and German cars broken down at the side of the road than any other. Even today i saw an Audi A3 broken down. About a week ago it was a Passat with its flashers on. Everytime i go to West Midlands Safari park in the summer (well twice actually), both times i have seen BMW's overheating.
Friends and family and even some people i've met through business have had problems with Golf's. My neighbors Passat also have problems.
For premium cars they have a lot of problems, cost a lot of buy, cost a lot to service and the parts are silly money. My dad's merc is ridiculous when it goes in for a service. £900 just to change the aircon unit!
So all in all, what appears to be some of the best cars on paper and during a 2day or a weeks test drive soon unravel problems during ownership. The classy cars may make you feel important. macho or great but they are nothing special.
It also gets me how they have diggs at the handling and in reference to flinging it round a bend on a track at 70mph and it understeers, its just not realistic. Also you may just not like some brands and immediately discount certain cars.
I say, buy the car that you like the most, regardless of what others say, i just make sure it isn't un-reliable. To like a car may mean a mixture of, reliability, purchase/running cost, practicality, style, performance - my criteria in that order.
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It might be a little oversimplistic to think that car manufacturers are forced into making generic products because of the motoring press, rather than because the vast majority of people want a car that 'just works' with maybe a twist of something visual that appeals to them. History has shown that companies specialising in a range of fringe products don't last whereas generic 'pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap' merchants do, so if there's a lack of expression and flair in the automarket it's because that's what makes the most money.
Besides, some of the most leftfield and/or edgy cars get the most praise from motoring rags - look at the C6, the Panda 100HP, the Mitsubishi iCar, the new Civic, the 350Z.. all targetted at a narrow market (with maybe the exception of the Civic) and all liked, whereas the new 3 series, most things Korean and almost every people carrier get universally slated. Look at historical reviews and it's always the weird and wonderful that raise the fondest memories (DS, anyone?...)
Besides, referring to a car as a boat isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is just an effective description of how it behaves, i.e. wafty, unhurried, prone to rolling and with aspirations to magic-carpet-ness. For a mile bashing limo those really aren't bad qualities. It's more telling how somebody responds to that desciption, as that often indicates what they'd really like the car to be behind their suspicions of impending disappointment. I felt the same about the reviews of the Brera until I saw one in the metal the other day and decided I'd be prepared to forgive it just about anything :)
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IIRC there was a lot of adverse comments when PAS appeared on small cars ( Mazda 323?) when many downgrading from 2/3 litre saloons thought it was great.
In recent years, one attempt to provide a two seater saloon with a boot plus a high view was loudly abused.
I cannot recall the model name but although it was a little odd in appearance I thought it was a good try.
I suspect that the reviews helped to kill it off.
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Suzuki X-90. It was killed off cos it was rubbish! It didn't ride well, handle well or drive well. It was uncomfortable, noisy, uneconomical and ugly. It probably suited the five people who bought one.
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George Bishop (Car) used to call them the Union of Muttering Journalists.
They share the following attributes with the tabloid press:
1. they know nothing
2. they don't think
3. the latest fashion is best.
and so despite the above they venture an opinion on everything.
I treat them with the same respect I have for the Daily Sport (Wellington bombers on the Moon , anyone?).
Bunch of walkers.
madf
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One thing that I always liked on Top Gear was that every now and again, they would give a 'real' opinion - ie, the car isnt great in many respects, but somehow, we still like it. That seems real to me as many cars have their downsides ( Defender for instance ) but are still bought for the simple reason they are the best for their chosen job.
On the X-90 dont be so sure - It may not have sold great, but obviously someone liked them - I knew a VERY attractive girl in her early 20's who owned one - she was single and didnt need more than two seats but wanted four wheel drive as she used to drive across the fields to her horses - yes a landie would have been better, but she was a girlie girl.
I think the only car that seems to have truelly fallen flat in recent years is the Fiat Croma - how long did that last? I have not yet seen one of the handful that were sold.
One thing that made me think about the subject was that my family went to Duxford airshow on the weekend in a loan car Hyundai Sonata diesel - my dad loved it aside from some extra cheap looking dashboard plastics - my mum loved it too as its easy to drive and has enough toys for her.
I rode in the back - so much space I was totally stretched out and got out thinking what a nice way to travel. It was also quiet enough for a three way convo. And maybe a big boot isnt everything, but if you have passengers or someone with a wheelchair, its darned useful.
Its not the best car for sure, but its a perfectly acceptable way to get around and not that expensive in the scheme of things. Just to read the press reports, you would think it was useless and its far from it in everyday use.
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Muttering Journalists.
>>
Mutterintg Rotters (as in: motoring writers).
To state the obvious, some are a lot better than others.
It's a job, certainly a lot less fun than people think.
Some manage to maintain an attitude throughout. Some don't.
An ex TV newsfeature pal of mine calls it 'gizmo journalism', thinls it's more or less the same as hi-fi or computer journalism, and regards it as corrupt. It often is actually, if you call normal capitalist activity corrupt*.
Some hacks manage to steer the sinuous path without dunking themselves in the excrement too deeply or often. All credit to them.
*It often is, always was, always will be, but don'tmake a song and dance about it if you know what's good for you.
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Suzuki X-90.
>>It probably suited the five people who bought one.
>>
Yes that was vehicle. I regularly see one ( of the few) in my area.
HJ's comments
"Strange aberration, apparently aimed squarely at the sort of bottle blond hairdressers who used to buy fat wheeled Vitaras. Just look at it, will you?"
Other info:
"The X-90 was initially a concept car and received wide praise from the public. However, the production vehicle sold poorly, and is considered a flop. Just 7,205 X-90s were imported into the US in total. More than half were sold in 1996, with sales dropping to 2,087 the next year and just 477 in 1998.
In Europe sales were equally poor; altogether 1,500 examples reached the UK alone and Suzuki had great trouble marketing and selling them. In 2004 BBC's Top Gear magazine awarded the car the status of the worst car of all time."
I had no idea that it sold that badly.
I still think the basic configuration was a good idea even if it was strange looking.
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Coming back to 'muttering rotters' (was it again George Bishop who first called them that?), you have to bear in mind that many of them are young and male, and tend to see things through their own perspective. Thus they nearly all inevitably prefer a BMW if it features in a group test, because its steering and handling, particularly cornering, is one of BMW's particular strengths. They judge a car by how well it drives on the limit - fair enough to test it to the limit, but that isn't the way most of their readers drive, and they don't seem to get this message.
Many of us, especially those of riper years, find an Audi more relaxing to drive than a BMW; others, equally legitimately, prefer the soft comfy ride of a Citroen or Renault. (No disrespect to BMW by the way - I'm simply thinking of horses for courses.)
Steve Cropley of Autocar (late of CAR, probably the best editor it ever had, followed by Gavin Green) is an honourable exception to this. He's running a long-term C6 for Autocar and his reports will be interesting and certainly fair: he'll understand the virtues of a car like this that Stunorthants has recognised.
Fortunately (I'm saying this because it's true, not as a creep!) we have HJ's tests ready to hand, and he is of course one of those who understands what most of us want to know.
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I think one of the problems also is a go with the flow mentality among many journalists...(with the exception of many Car writers who simply were thoroughly erudite, intelligent and entertaining) so in many ways group think sets in....One thing I noticed was a relative lack of prominence given to many of the Japanese models which way before European models were pioneering things like tall boxy estate cars (Nissan Prairie), mid sized MPVs (Mitsubishi Space Wagon and even more interesting Space Runner) and small sports cars (eg Honda CRX, Nissan 100 SX, Suzuki Cappuccino) etc. Certainly I do find it odd how good cars often from small makers eg the Daihatsu Sirion seem to just get ignored as they are not sold in huge numbers...I presume if they get taken on alot of jollies by the big firms then they are obliged to write about them...
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Tom Ford is running a long-termer for Top Gear too, and seems to love it despite some niggling faults that wont go away.
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I think the muttering rotters referred specifically the Guild of Motoring Writers (geddit?).
Odd for some people here to so vehemently slag off motoring journos.......
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>>Odd for some people here to so vehemently slag off motoring journos.......
Not really, the combined, averaged wisdom of the BR easily provides higher quality information than the befuddled scribblings of any tedious hack.
Number_Cruncher
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A car or bike is like a woman .........it only come into its true light through a longer term relationship.
Accordingly I have always thought that it is difficult to form a truly objective opinion during a short road test, just like a speed date doesnt tell you if the lady is wife material.
For me an hour or so on a bike or in a car tells me a lot about its dynamics, performance and refinement though not what it is like to live with, yes it tells me whether I would like to go out with it again and perhaps become a litle more intimate, though it doesnt tell me whether a long term relationship would be worthwhile.
However the value in road tests is when two or more jounalist report along the same lines on the basics, a couple of different journos saying that a car has fine handling and is fun on the back roads usually means it is.
Wouldn't want a couple of hacks getting their hands on your future mrs in the same way though would you!
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LOL Cheddar!
Your opening line reminds me of Swiss Tony the car salesman out of the fast show!
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Someone mentioned above that CAR magazine was the exception to the blandness of the other publications... IMHO that USED to be the case, but not any more. It's SOOOOOOOOOO middle class now it's tiresome. "I write for CAR magazine, and I live in Twickenham. Yawn... 4*4.... bored...... congestion charge...... baby seats.... yawn.... etc.. It's all a far cry from Doug Blain et al. I thought I'd bought Cosmopolitan when I bought CAR last month...
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>Lud
Thanks for the correction.. I knew I was wrong as I wrote but rather tired as PC had to be reloaded from scratch:-(
Stevied sums up CAR today perfectly... me too carp...
madf
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Stevied sums up CAR today perfectly... me too carp... madf
I have recived CAR magazine subscription for the last 8 years as a christmas present from my Bro. I haven't the hart to tell him don't bother
As it has been said more like cosmo now, a lifestyle magazine, as soon as they got rid of the good the bad & ugly section it was for me pretty pointless
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One thing that is constantly annoying to me is this insistance that Audi do the highest quality interiors - I keep reading it but sorry, it doesnt wash - why? - well I clean alot of Audis, from nearly new to about 6 years old - from about 2 years old, the material they use around the window switches just flakes off and this doesnt seem to be improving - this aint quality in the slightest and I often wonder if Audi is giving backhanders to keep the myth alive.
The A6 esp seems prone to this and it shows how superficial some comments cant be. My Fiat doesnt have this problem.
Same goes for BMW - I read last night the X5 has one of the best quality interiors in a 4x4 - so why was I yesterday cleaning an 05 X5 with 35k which had worn the colour clean off its side bolster on the drivers seat and was cracked badly? That is just plain carp quality and if I know it, any motoring hack should know it aswell, its hardly an isolated case.
Quality is supposed to be more than skin deep and that appears to be getting forgotten or ignored.
So who is it who is encouraging turning a blind eye?
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I have recived CAR magazine subscription for the last 8 years as a christmas presentfrom my Bro. I haven't the hart to tell him don't bother As it has been said more like cosmo now a lifestyle magazine as soon as they got rid of the good the bad & ugly section ...
Agreed.
I really enjoy Octane, though - pure, unadulterrated automotive porn!
(No, not T&A... just beautiful classics you can stare at all day!)
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james May is the only journalist who seems to portray the actual ownership experience and the quirks, as opposed to the usual ride/handling/acceleration/rear leg-room headlines that others trot out. He understands how great the Fiat Panda is, and runs one to prove it.
Clarkson is pretty inert now - he just thinks of a controversial viewpoint first, and then slants the car review to back it up.
The chap who writes in The Independent is quite good though. I remember him giving the Jeep Cherokee a hilarious kicking a while back - search the website and have a laugh.
However, when I read a review of the new BMW X5, which ended with the conclusion that it "lacked the charm" of the old one, you realise most motoring journos arent much cop. "Charm" is perhaps the last adjective I'd think of when descrbing a Mk1 BMW X5.
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John Simister is good value in the Independent. Or are you thinking of Michael Booth? His review of the new Freelander (his review car broke down and wasn't very pleasant to ride in) bore the subtitle:
'The hopelessly unreliable Freelander is half car, half walrus',
and concluded:
Why don't you just go for a nice walk? Then again, I suppose if you buy a Freelander then that is most probably what you will end up doing.'
On the other hand, Giles Smith's reviews in the Guardian are occasionally amusing but you find once you've read them that you know a lot about the door handles but have no idea whether the thing you've been reading about might suit you. Quite pointless.
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Coming back to 'muttering rotters' (was it again George Bishop who first called them that?) you have to bear in mind that many of them are young and male and tend to see things through their own perspective. Thus they nearly all inevitably prefer a BMW if it features in a group test because its steering and handling particularly cornering is one of BMW's particular strengths.
I find it somewhat annoying how if certain cars are made by the 'wrong' brand, it will be marked down several points, even if it is actually quite good. In other words, luxury saloons not made by Germans, almost anything made in Korea, etc.
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Guild of Muppets is I suggest a better and far more apt description...
95% are... proven from their own pens/PCs
madf
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