When you try iselling cars for a living (its not as easy as its may seem to be!) then the 1st thing you do is to sort the definite interested out from the time wasters.
A deposit in the hand is a sign, as is a comparison with another car seen or to be seen next etc. vague comments tend to be a sign of a tyre kicker.
Main dealers are well equipped for these type of people, loads of cars that they dont have to clean (the valeters do it) and all they are after is their commission. What happens to the cars doesnt matter to them.
Buy from the type of place you prefer. But if you want quality after sales service choose wisely?
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Trader's judgement was spot on I think!. Too many on here know nothing about the used car business. Nothing wrong with selling from home and nothing illegal about it.
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>Too many on here know nothing about the used car business
apart from being buyers you mean? usually cheated buyers?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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OK That's it - bring it back on topic please and a little more civility. Remember what it says in the Forum's rules about being a good natured conversation in a pub...... PU - Mod.
Blimey the adrenalin was running high on this one - I forgot an apostrophe ! - PU
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>>.... was merely commenting on the original post about a guy in a mansion with 25 BMWs and Mercedes outside. Any normal house would not allow the parking of 25 vehicles outside ..
when perleman says he saw something like that, you have to believe him. especially as it was so so relevant to his question about the car and the trader.
perleman does not have a shred of walter-mitty about him, and his dreams of owning fast cars are not dreams at all as he says he will soon turn them in to reality.
as bill-payer said, did the trader recognise perleman from his posting history on here?
:: ;-) ::
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I can sympathize-with the dealer.My BiL deals in prestige sports cars-mostly around the £25/50,000 area.Now he has a showroom but the tyre-kickers always want to drive/ride in the ones at the back of the showroom.
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There is two sides to this story, on the one hand a dealer who doesn't want his stock used for expensive thrills and I respect that he is a sole trader - you crash his car and he loses stock, profit and his insurance premiums go up. On the other hand he is in a competitive business and we are the ones with the cash.
The main thing here is buying signals. I did a spell selling very expensive plant to the aircraft industry and the leasons are the same read the signals. As a salesman I was taught to ask as many questions that way if I would know if the guy/girl was wasting my time. Good training worked. As I would get the "tyre kickers" and I would get the ones who had a briefcase full of cash (some times several) I once sold a loader for £175K cash!!
I think there needs to honesty on both sides - if you're cagey then as a salesman I walk away - If the salesman is cagey (for instance about history etc) then as the customer I walk away.
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I remember reading in a magazine that a customer turned up at a Lotus dealer in sweat shirt and jeans(this was a long time ago when these were not standard wear) and the salesman could not be bothered.As the customer got into his 911 and drove away,he saw the salesman running up the road after him,waving his arms.
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I simply will not buy a car without driving it first. If the seller can't understand that, they don't sell me a car. Simple as that. Their loss.
Cheers
DP
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simply will not buy a car without driving it first
that satisfies the presumption that you are seriously looking to buy a car, and not just "looking".
bu what if you are a ditherer who just goes around looking at differnet makes/models of cars from one day to the next, without any prior research, without any idea of the insurance costs, no clear idea of your budget, etc. etc. etc. ??
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I agree with Paul on this.. and Bell Boy as well..
IF I were selling secondhand cars for a living (and I don't), then I would "qualify" all my test drivers...
Anyone who walks in and immediately asks for a drive is unlikely to get it.. but engage saying you are in the market, appear genuine etc...
BUT do not assume a sole trader with cars at a BIG house has assets. He may have none: loans for stock, mortgage on house or house in wife/partner's name...
Indeed I personally would ensure I was a man of straw :-)
But I would never buy a car without a test drive... and never had a problem getting one.. cos I'm usually serious.
madf
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As a customer only, my approach is: if I'm just looking, I say so to the salesman and ask "do you mind if I have a look at X?". 1/3 say yes, and walk away, 1/3 say yes and offer some comment on the car in question, and 1/3 offer a test drive.
Mind you, these are usually tow cars or working 4x4s, not sportscars! But the seller who shows no interest at all gets no business - if he's not even willing to tell me how much the car costs, what use would he be if I had a problem after buying?
Top marks go to the VW guy who, when asked how much a standard spec VW Shuttle cost, handed over the keys and said "Drive it first, you mightn't even like the thing". Though told clearly I was just looking, he spent the rest of his morning explaining how to convert the Shuttle - and every other model of van on the lot - into campers. So when I do want a van, I'll be back.
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What all the "genuine" buyers on here forget is that every trader who sells a car probably sees 20 tyre kickers before it happens.
If you are a a salesamn in any trade would you hawk your stuff to all 20 tyre kickers without any type of investigation work?
Its exactly the same, just a different commodity.
No trader would stop a buyer from test driving but its normally at the point of "ok, I like the car, if it drives how I want it to I will buy it or make you an offer on it!"
But no private trader that I know will say " Its no problem, you go for a fun drive with my stock and petrol and if you like it enough you go and see if you can afford it. Then come back to me and if its still here you can drive it again and again. Then when you tell me you cant afford it I will just clean it and refill it with petrol and put it back on show"
There are dealers with loads of cars for the people that want to drive so many different cars.
I have had more than 1 customer who has asked to drive the little fiesta and that big van. Now what is he actually looking for? Would you give him a test drive? In either vehicle?
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it's simple isn't it.......trader has a commodity that they'd like to sell
customer is the one with the money.....therefore they need to be 'looked after' and encouraged to spend it.....
no doubt experience will kick in from the trader, or ought to, but not nurturing the customer will lessen the likelihood of sale
tyre kickers are an annoying part of the system, but c'est la vie
if i'm not 'looked after' i won't buy, simple as that.....if i'm 'looked after' by someone that i don't buy from i'll remember it and tell other people and feel a small degree of loyalty to....but that goes both ways too.......so if spoken to as if i'm something on the bottom of their shoe....i tell everyone that as well and make sure i never ever set foot in their again.
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if i'm 'looked after' by someone that i don't buy from i'll remember it and tell other people and feel a small degree of loyalty to
I went to look at a Leon the other day at a local well established dealer after a tip off from a friend. When I got there and had a look around it wasn't quite right for me, but I did notice an interesting E36 parked on their other forecourt across the road. I hadn't actually considered this model before, but I decided to have a look anyway knowing that I hadn't done enough research to make a solid decision.
One of the staff came out and introduced himself, gave me a quick rundown of the finer points of that car, offered to hand the keys over and leave me to have a look over it, and then let him know if I was interested. I took him up on the offer and had a good dig around, noticing a one minor issue with the bodywork, an aircon problem and a question about an entry in the service history. I locked the car back up and approched the office, pointed out the aircon issue and was thanked for spotting it and told it would be fixed before the car left. The dealer was surprised by the (admittedly small) chin damage, and explained the recent history of the car to account for the short interval in the service book (they'd sold it once before, and it had been serviced even though it didn't need it.). He then offered to photocopy the V5 so I could speak to the previous owner and said he'd be happy to arrange a test drive if everything checked out to my satisfaction, with no pressure.
After a bit of digging I've decided against that particular E46, but at the time he advised of some new models that were coming in shortly and said I'd be welcome to come back and look over them as soon as they'd been checked and prepared. The service was absolutely first rate, friendly and informative and I feel confident tha tif I did buy from there I'd be properly looked after so I'll definitely be going back shortly to view the new stock.
Compare all that to 'can't be bothered, mate' and you can see there really is no excuse for crap salesmanship
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madf: "I agree with Paul on this.. and Bell Boy as well..
IF I were selling secondhand cars for a living (and I don't), then I would "qualify" all my test drivers..."
Doesn't sit alongside
bell boy: "I don't give test drives either unless I am feeling generous."
The first sounds like good business practice and the second sounds like bb thinks he's doing people a favour by letting them have a drive.
V
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It depends what order you do things in I suppose. I always follow the same pattern when I buy a car, and never had a problem getting a test drive, but it's one of the last things I do. My buying experience usually goes something like this:
Friendly chat with seller.
Walk around outside of car looking for rust, marks, colour mismatches and wonky panels.
Ask if any finance outstanding or if it's ever been in a prang that they know of. Say you're going to run an HPI check anyway.
Look inside car checking odometer, trim wear, smell, overall condition.
Check behind rubbers, seals, carpets etc for rust / damage / overspray / water ingress wherever possible.
Check tyres, wheel bearings and CV joints, balljoints as much as possible.
Lift the bonnet, check for accident damage, fluid leaks etc. Check all fluid levels and condition
Ask when the car was last used. I've been lied to so many times here where the engine has clearly been fired up for a minute or so before I arrived. Starting for a few minutes = trying to hide something. Stone cold engine = confident (or lazy).
Start the engine with someone stood behind to check the exhaust for smoke.
Listen to the engine carefully. Let it warm up a bit. Go back inside and check all electricals / gadgets
THEN, assuming the above reveals no reason to walk away, ask for test drive. If no, walk away (happened once, but was called back as I left. Reason for reluctance immediately obvious within 200yds - the car was a dog!)
If yes, reasonable length test drive checking all gears, brakes, clutch. No stereo on and no windows down.
If test drive ok, discuss price.
If price ok, leave deposit subject to HPI check coming back clear. Have this written on the receipt for the deposit. Doing the HPI check before this point is a potential waste of £25.
Write down all relevant numbers (chassis / VIN, engine, MoT cert, V5 serial no) and run HPI check, sort out insurance and bankers draft for balance
Collect car.
I appreciate there are tyre kickers and time wasters, but equally there are small traders who think nothing of misdescribing a car just to get you to come and look, and then try pathetic "sales" techniques to make you buy it.
I confess to deliberately wasting the time of one private trader who had me drive 40 miles to look at a "mint" Fiesta 1.4 Ghia with a full service history that:
a) Was a 1.25 not a 1.4
b) Had no two panels the same colour
c) Had taken a hard smash up the backside at some point judging by the state of the boot floor.
d) The full history was 10k, 20k, 30k and the car had 85k on it. Oil level below minimum and mostly black sludge
e) Had different locks for drivers door and steering column.
No apologies at all, just a sheepish shrug and then tried to tell me there was no real difference between the 1.25 and 1.4 and that he'd had 110 out of it all the way back from Manchester the night before.
Took a half hour drive to waste his time as he had wasted mine, then walked away. In every other case, I can honestly say I've looked at a car with the intention and the means to buy it.
My brother in law had the same thing with a Cavalier despite telling the seller it was a 30 mile run for him, and he was very fussy on condition. The car wasn't even in the colour the seller described and was a crate!
Some sellers are sharks as well.
Cheers
DP
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It was a private gated house with a road / driveway about 250 yards long. The driveway was exclusively for that one house There are some pictures on this link: With my knowledge of the property market I'd put the property at about £3m. Look for yourself & judge....
I have now gone completely of the idea, he didn't make me feel comfortable about parting with that money at all. I have waited many many years to buy my next car & am going to trust my instinct with regards to the person I choose to deal with...
Perleman - I believe you but I think there has been too much mud thrown within this thread and that this borders on name and shame - PU
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The trader,if asked would say he made the right decision about you.If you take his assets at face value you would have to assume he is usually right.
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Well he was dead wrong about me. I'm very close to buying, and just needed to be treated with respect and gently guided towards the sale. I'm a real sucker for charm and niceness, despite working in marketing for 4 years. I'm very indecisive as you can probably tell, and need to feel comfortable when handing over 13k. He insisted on calling me 'young man' (I'm 27) and scowling for daring to not have refined my purchasing decision down to less than 3 different models.
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I'm going to see another one privately advertised this weekend, the guy was really nice, friendly & helpful, reminded me of my dad. His wife's a teacher etc. And it's tiptronic too.
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With my knowledge of the property market I'd put the property at about £3m. Look for yourself & judge....
With your knowledge of the property market are you absolutely sure it was a house in residential use? Or was it being used to sell the "lifestyle" associated with "prestige" cars? There are no rules to say that a trader has to have a grubby forecourt, or a shiny showroom in the traditional sense, especially if said trader attracts the kind of client who doesn't like hanging around in public car showrooms.
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I get bored with my cars easily and as I view them as a hobby as much as a form of transport don't mind losing a bit of cash for the excitement of a new drive.
This has meant I've bought and sold around 25 cars in the last decade, varying from from bangers at less than 5 grand right up to brand new 'prestige cars'.
I've only ever met one trader like 'bellboy' and needless to say he didn't get my business. I turned up to look at a 996 turbo driving the hire car I was using at the time having come back from a lengthy spell as an ex-pat. First thing I noticed was him curling his lip up at the Fiesta and things didn't get much better as I talked to him. Flatly refused a test drive, vague about details, unwilling to go and fetch the paperwork as it was 'a lot of bother'. Within 10 minutes I put it to him that he wasn't the sort of person I wanted to buy a car from and I wouldn't waste his time any longer. I was literally champing at the bit for his car which had the X50 pack and was in my ideal spec but I thought I'd take my 60K elsewhere. I watched his car and others he had for sale languishing on autotrader for the next month while I tracked down a professional to do business with.
Never buy a car from people like this- what do you think will happen when it comes time for aftersales service or problems? "too much bother mate", "timewaster", "taking the proverbial"
Run a mile.
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> I was literally champing at the bit...
Could this have been what put him off?
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Sorry, last post should have had a };---) - or even a }:---(¦)
Incidentally, Perleman's dealer appears not to be a sole trader - there's a registration on the Companies House site in that name.
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hmmn perhaps 'metaphorically champing at the bit' might have been more correct. Whenever i buy a car I always use my best 'poker face'.
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I'm very close to buying and just needed to be treated with respect and gently guided towards the sale.
I think that's a typical British thing - we don't like to appear keen in case we get ripped off, but instead we come across as not seriously interested.
From the sales point of view it's also an indication of poor salesmanship - but again, Brits don't like the hard sell, they shut off, and then write in forums that the salesman was too aggressive.
If the dealer in the OP really is living in £3M ish house, then it's reasonable to assume that he's got some idea about what he's going.
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>If the dealer in the OP really is living in £3M ish house...
If it really was his house. The registered office for the dealer is now care of a 'consultancy' in an office block. Prior to that, it was at a fairly ordinary-looking (i.e. not £3m) house in Gerrard's Cross. Are we sure the dealer lives in the 'mansion', or could it be that he just rents space in the grounds to store and display his stock?
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Prior to that it was at a fairly ordinary-looking (i.e. not £3m) house in Gerrard's Cross.
There's not much ordinary housing in Gerrard's Cross.
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There are no rules to say that a trader has to have a grubby forecourt or a shiny showroom in the traditional sense especially if said trader attracts the kind of client who doesn't like hanging around in public car showrooms.
Can't imagine said client wanting to buy from a sole trader operating out of garden, rather than a prestige dealer with appropriate premises. Sole traders spell cheaper prices but less comeback, not really a concern for genuine prestige buyers.
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Can't imagine said client wanting to buy from a sole trader
He's not a sole trader.
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I find if I'm absolutely straight with someone trying to sell me something, I get a better deal. If it's a car I'd like to buy, I say I'd like to buy it, but it has the following drawbacks and that makes me think it's worth £xxxx - what do you think?
Poker faces and amateur theatricals just confuse the issue.
In the case of the OP I'd call the dealer before and make it clear I expected a drive.
Working on assumptions that you keep to yourself just makes it more likely that two parties are going to start the conversation further apart than they need to.
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Poker faces and amateur theatricals just confuse the issue.
Don't know about theatricals but if you want a discount there's nothing worse than saying things like 'I really love the car' or looking like a dog with two *dinners*.
What I try to do is appear to be a serious buyer who is looking for the right car at the right price but who also knows the rules of the game and knows that there is always another car to look at.
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"like a dog with two *dinners*."
"tails" is perfectly acceptable word before the saying was hi-jacked :-)
--
PU without his Mod Hard Hat on !
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This forum is really frustrating for the way you reply to one message and find it's under another. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
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Almost all the cars were sub £10k, plus 90k miles jobies - a selection of 3 to 8 year old BMW 3's & 5's, X & S type Jags, merc C & E class & a few oddies that were clearly old p/x.
So essentially not 'premium' prestige cars, but more 'beer money, champaigne car' cars, for folk like myself who want to appear wealthier than we actually are(!!)
I'm far more comfortable buying from an individual who I can make a character judgement on, or a trusted garage I think & won't go to a hardened trader again.
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I know of a large car supermarket in South Yorkshire who don't allow test drives and don't give any warranty, except for the remainder of the manufacturer's warranty. Although their stock is mostly nearly new to 2-3 year old cars, sometimes the mileage is past the first service due mileage and the service has not been done, so the manufacturer's warranty is likely to be void anyway.
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