"They still make millions of cars in Japan annually."
yes: my Yaris was one of them in 2003
madf
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"Honda - UK and China soon (Jazz)"
Soon if not already... China will assemble the Accord.
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They still make millions of cars in Japan annually.
True, but not necessarily for UK market.
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Snnnnnipppppppppppp - PU
Not always, but there's a better (than for the rest of Europe) chance a Japanese car sold in the UK will be built in Japan because we both drive on the left.
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I am very much of the opinion that reliability is 'designed' into a car, rather than 'built' into it. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese designed cars built outside of Japan are less reliable or durable.
The US-market Toyota Camry is built in the US with 80% local content. It always comes very high in the JD Power surveys. Similarly Accords and Toyota pick-up are built in the US and score well. Sunderland built Primera's were exported to the US and sold under the 'Infiniti' brand (G20 Model) and won JD Power a couple of times in the 1990's.
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I am very much of the opinion that reliability is 'designed' into a car rather than 'built' into it. There is no evidence to suggest that Japanese designed cars built outside of Japan are less reliable or durable.
Aprilia,
I bow to your expertise on most matters; but would take issue with that statement.
The first editions of the Yaris assembled in France(1.0 versions) attracted much criticism in various publications - including HJ in his CbCB - viz
"From 2000, petrol versions built in Valenciennes France and at first quality was not up to original standard. (Early reports of misaligned panels and 'dry' clutch release bearings.)"
I have certainly seen anecdotal evidence in various magazines that suggests that build quality from other manufacturers suffers when cars are assembled outside of Japan. Whilst major assemblies might be the same, it is the quality of items manufactured locally that can let a car down.
IIRC I believe also that you commented some while ago about the difference in the 'Total Quality' ethos in Japan and the lower standards in other countries.
This problem is not just for Japanese cars. We all are aware of the problems Mercedes had with RHD C class cars assembled in S Africa.
I want my cars manufactured in Japan!!
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If the original design is poor, it doesn't matter where the car is built. I tend to agree with Aprilia in that I think the design is the single most important "ingredient".
There will be differences in cars built in different plants which are unavoidable. For example you can have differing ages and specs for the big costly items like presses, welding stations and paint shops that are typically in place for many years, and span a number of consecutive models.
For example, the paintshop at Ryton was somewhat antiquated and poor - I would expect French built Peugeots to be better finished. (Although I haven't seen the state of the French paintshop!)
You can also have different component suppliers - it's almost inevitable. Although Japanese cars built in the UK do have some assemblies sourced from and imported from Japan, and are hence identical to a Japanese built car, there is also significant local content. These local content parts have to pass the same levels of acceptance testing as the Japanese parts, and as such, are of comparable specification and performance, but they are not identically the same.
Number_Cruncher
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Aprilia I bow to your expertise on most matters; but would take issue with that statement. The first editions of the Yaris assembled in France(1.0 versions) attracted much criticism in various publications - including HJ in his CbCB - viz "From 2000 petrol versions built in Valenciennes France and at first quality was not up to original standard. (Early reports of misaligned panels and 'dry' clutch release bearings.)"
I think the first weeks of production of any new car are always likely to be a little bit more prone to faults. Everyone is 'learning'. I think it would be the same for cars built in a Japanese plant - the Japs are not superhuman!
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Not always, but there's a better (than for the rest of Europe) chance a Japanese car sold in the UK will be built in Japan because we both drive on the left.
For same reason, some cars made in India (Suzuki Alto, Hyundai Getz/Amica etc.) are sold to UK rather that rest of Europe!
Nowadays most of made in Japan cars are actually exported to USA rather than Europe. Most Japanese/Korean cars for UK market are made in EU or Asia.
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Nowadays most of made in Japan cars are actually exported to USA rather than Europe.
Most US-market Japanese cars are now made in the US. This is for reasons of avoiding import tariff. The big sellers (Camry, Maxima etc) made in the US plants with high local content. Even Hyundai are now made in the US. Premium brands (Infiniti, Lexus, Accura) are still imported from Japan.
Japanese company plants on US-soil are run by the Japanese to their own systems - that's the key. All the evidence so far is that the products are no less reliable than product made in Japan.
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A model is usually made in the same plant from start to finish, but sometimes companies will change component suppliers during the lifespan of a model, and this can drastically affect reliability. Fiesta heater valves are a classic example, as are the supposed reliability records of KKK vs Garrett turbochargers on some early Renault dCi engines. My old Mondeo TD has a Lucas CAV fuel system which for example suffers a problem with the diaphragm failing on the primer pump and causing air-leaks. If I'd bought another car, I might have got a Bosch system which doesn't even have this part fitted so it cannot go wrong. In fact, the whole design is so different that it has virtually no interchangeable parts. Even the injector lines are a different internal bore for example.
Cheers
DP
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> A model is usually made in the same plant from start to finish
Not strictly true, its quite common for Makers to start making a product on another line, in another (cheaper) country and import that into the original market, and then swop the orginal (higher labour) line into another model (or even shut the line down)
You could of course bankrupt the company, dismantle theline, ship it to china, rebuild the line, make the cars and ship them back to orginal market. Wonder how quality stays up then?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The line that made the Rover 75's is still in the UK. They figured out they could take the line for the 25/45s and alter that. So none of the Chinese versions of the 75 are build on the original 75 line so your guess as good as anyone's on quality ;-)
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All the evidence so far is that the products are no lessreliable than product made in Japan.
What 'evidence' is that?
Have there been any independent studies comparing cars from the same maker manufactured inside, and outside of Japan?
Who would have carried out the studies and, most importantly, released the results?
I can hardly imagine Toyota/Honda/Mazda etc publishing any unpalatable figures. The PR men they employ invented 'spin' and the Mandy Rice Davies syndrome will apply!!
On the contrary, whilst not irrefutable evidence, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence, from motoring publications and owners, that cars assembled outside of Japan do not enjoy the same reputation for reliability. The Toyota Carina and new Corolla being good examples.
The outsourced components and assembly lines lacking the skill/attitude/pride/ethos/supervision(call it what you will) are the chief suspects IMO.
I don't wish to exaggerate the situation as all Japanese manufacturers, regardless of where the car is built, consistently top all reliability studies. All I know is I ensured that the Toyota I got for SWMBO was built in Japan.
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My last car was an import Honda Prelude 2.2 vtech, (shark-nose model), my friend had a "British Spec" Prelude, same model, year younger. The build quality, and component quality of my jap version was far superior in every aspect. He recently sold his, and bought mine!, says it all really.
Billy
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Daihatsu show rooms proudly have stickers on there cars - 'made in japan'.
Pure japanese - purely reliable.
btw, i recently found the the hyundai amica 2007 model costs hyundai uk a whole £1800.00 including VED.
even cheaper and far better than the city rover which cost rover £2300.
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My last car was an import Honda Prelude 2.2 vtech (shark-nose model) my friend had a "British Spec" Prelude same model year younger. The build quality and component quality of my jap version was far superior in every aspect. He recently sold his and bought mine! says it all really.
I think all Preludes were made in Japan?
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If i remember correctly from the top of my head, i seem to recall something about his "british Spec" model being "made/assembled?" in Belgium, (don't quote me on that however! it just seems to ring a bell), however, wherever thier built, when compared side by side as we did once or twice, the differences in quality literally leap out at you!.
They are definately "different" cars.
Billy.
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All the evidence so far is that the products are no less >> reliable than product made in Japan. >> What 'evidence' is that?
JD Power (UK & US); Consumer Reports (US); Which? (UK); DEKRA and ADAC (Germany). In all of these reports non-Japan assembled vehicles have scored very highly, often at the top. US-made Japanese brand vehicles consistantly come at the top, or close to the top, of US consumer surveys. Similarly, European-made Japanese brand vehicles (Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans) tend to do very well in the European consumer tests and ADAC breakdown surveys, and no less well than equivalents made in Japan. UK made Hondas, for example, are widely regarded in the trade to have an outstanding reliability record - virtually the only common fault is failure of the wide-band exhaust sensor (an NTK part from Japan).
Remember that the Japanese themselves actually make far fewer components in Japan than they used to. A lot of components are now being made in Thailand, Malaysia etc and imported into Japan. I was recently rather surprised to see a Japanese-made Subaru with a Mitsubishi alternator that was made in France!
What the Japanese have is very good design and very good production engineering. I think it is now widely accepted within the industry (and has been for a good many years) that they can successfully 'export' this advantage and that geographical location has minimal impact on quality. Of course there will be teething issues when a new plant is constructed, but when things settle down the results are good. And remember that they have lots of experience at this - setting up their own plants in NZ, Australia, Europe, SA, the US. And helping establish JV companies using their own technology in other countries (e.g. Proton in Malaysia, Hyundai, Kia in Korea, Maruti in India etc etc).
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Aprilla,
I agree with all you say in the above post, but with respect, you are not answering the 'exam question!'
As I said above Japanese cars "regardless of where the car is built, consistently top all reliability studies." so it is not it dispute how well they score. IMO they get second prize!
The exam question is for evidence showing that reliability of 'foreign' Japanese cars is on a par with those built in Japan.
In fact the very good record of Swindon built Hondas is often held up as an example to prove that it is indeed possible for 'foreign' cars to match reliability levels of home produced cars; the implication being that often this is not the case.
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It cant be answered. Until you have the same make/model/spec of car, one made in Japan and one elsewhere, delivered into the same market, AND you differentiate between the two in some way when reporting, you will never find out.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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quoted post snipped - PU
Agreed - which was my point.
I suspect that the Head Office of Honda/Toyota/Mazda etc know plenty about warranty claims/failures of cars from all their plants. However it would be very sensitive information, which understandably would not be made available.
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Indeed, and those same people will be monitoring the local testing organisation(s) feedback and publicity (good is good - only they know how good it could be), and at the same time checking warranty against build costs.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The manufacturing process for Japanese cars and development is still created in Japan. Parts are sourced from various companies all selected by the Japanese development team.
Once a car design and process is agreed the manufacturing process begins and is distributed to all product lines globally. The machines, parts and processing involved is practically the same, only differences being left / right drives, emission standards and availability of parts to the country and of course the market you are selling to.
When you travel the world you realise that there is only a handful of companies that design and create the processes for making cars. These companies then distribute designs globally and you will find the same companies producing cars for several manufacturers. Forget what cars look like, its the mechanics and parts used in cars that are standardised.
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Any one else remember when you had to slip the Ford dealer a bung to get a good (German built) Granada rather than bad (UK built) one?
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