While my Audi is out of action, I have borrowed a nearly new Renault Espace from work, and I am struggling to make sense of it. Certainly it appears to have lots of space inside, but much of it is between the steering wheel and the windscreen, where you can't store things. The distance from the front bumper to the drivers seat is almost exactly the same as my Audi, and that doesn't even have a transverse engine. There's plenty of headroom, but I don't usually wear a tall hat while I'm driving, so it isn't a lot of use to me.
The one thing the extra height does is to make the vehicle feel unstable on corners. Feels underdamped as well, even without any passengers or luggage. What it is like to drive with seven people in it I wouldn't like to think - a Transit van feels more stable and sure-footed on twisty roads.
The boot (once you take the rear seats out) doesn't look any bigger than a conventional estate, and the front seat cushions are a bit short (presumably to maximise the interior space). It's a swine to park, because you can't see anything forward of the base of the windscreen, and there are more blind spots behind than an old Golf. All in all, I can't really think of any advantage (other than newness) that it has over the old Renault 21 Savanna estate I dug up for a friend recently. But, lots of people are buying them, so what am I missing?
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Because it looks good on the school run & they can't afford a 4x4
Mark
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Or they had a 4x4, found it too thirsty and no good for putting the kids in.
I regularly attend a people carrier focus group and take it from me they are absolutely ideal for the school run and normal shopping trips with all the kids in.
Yes there is a handling trade-off compared to a performance car but not too bad compared with an average car.
The Espace does feel odd/interesting with that monster dashboard.
David
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If you have a requirement to carry 7 people, OK,
otherwise, for 5 + luggage, a "normal" estate car is better.
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Glad I'm not the only one. If I wanted to feel like I was driving a van, I'd buy one. With three kids I can get all I need for a bucket 'n spade holiday into a Saab 9000 and still enjoy the drive to the coast.
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Friend of mine hired one. He said he felt as if he should be delivering bread.
Usual story. Manufacturers conjure up a van with rear seats, image makers call it a people carrier and the wallies want one.
Designers and makers spend millions on research into shape, windflows, air resistance etc. and the wallies stick three push-bikes on a rack on the back and ruin everything.
Really funny to see. And what a daft name.
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No arguments with anything said here. Maybe the People Carrier or the slightly smaller MPV's are more versatile insofar as they're taller and hence a bit easier to get in/out of and they usually have flexible seating which slides to and fro and sometimes sideways as well as removeable seats which effectively turns them in to a van as well as a car, and having a higher roofline makes loading easier. The Multipla and Zafira deserve credit for being almost anything you want them to be. The Fiat has great visibility due to it's huge window area and (electrically) height adjusting drivers seat and literally stacks of room back and front, it has sensible unpainted bumpers and plastic side trim. Even the external door handles have a plastic 'nib' to stop the door banging on the garage wall. The middle front seat doubles up as a picnic table and comes complete with the obligatory cup holders. I read that they're planning a 4x4 version of it too. If only they would adjust the front styling a bit and perhaps change it to a slightly more conventional sloping front instead of the 'cottage loaf' effect at present. It's that which, I'm sure, most people find so.............help me out with a word.
The Zafira is a cracker. The 7 seats are so easy to fold up/down. With them all down you have a perfectly flat load bay. With them up you have an excellent 5 seater with 2 more for occasional use.
If only Toyota or Nissan could take all the good bits out all the others. The Corolla Verso is fine but the others all have something to recommend them but aren't blessed with the Japanese reputation for not going wrong.
Sorry to go on, but I think the People Carriers have a purpose - but, I agree, aren't for everyone.
KB.
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"If only Toyota or Nissan could take all the good bits out all the others"
Well said KB and most informative. In fact, Toyota have done this but they keep it for their home market and, to enjoy it here, a Townace, Liteace or Masterace has to be imported. !!!!!
Also
" most people find so.............help me out with a word"
"Grotesque"comes to mind, followed by "ugly" and, that's being kind.
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I bought one because I have three children and a severely disabled mother in law to move about from time to time complete with wheelchair and oxygen cylinder. I also wanted proper 3 point belts and room for the children without them being crammed onto a bench seat or worse the middle one sitting on the hard bit of the squab between the two proper seats. The AlhamsharaGalaxy was too slow and didn't have the versatility of seating. Espace is more refined and a damn sight quicker (diesel)> As for handling, be brave! Once you are used to it you can chuck it about as much as you dare!
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I had a feeling they might be the words that sprung to mind, John. I honestly think that, despite it being a bit irrational not to buy something just on a cosmetic quirk, it IS keeping sales down, to Fiat's cost. I believe prospective buyers are afraid of ridicule (and they may be right) which is a shame if the vehicle is otherwise such a sound buy (which I think it is).
The Scenic is a positively hugely popular car and the Fiat may well have done so much better if only they'd moderated the 'concept car' looks at the front. It's that odd raised step with the badge and main beam lamps that do it.
I'd thought of writing to them telling them so - I'm sure I wouldn't be the first.
KB.
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Strangely though, extremes in design sometimes go on to set the standard. The Sierra MK1 got a real bashing in the press, ie, "jellymould" looks and, yes, I am old enough to remember, the raked back window of the Anglia 105E really startled us but, Ford sold millions I think. I think that the specification of the Fiat Multipla sounds excellent but, that front bit takes a some getting used to. Of course, I am possibly comparing it to the FIRST Fiat Multipla. On that one, the whole of the front opened up so that the driver and passenger could enter. That would have been around the late fifties or early sixties so, radical designs from Fiat are nothing new.
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John Davis wrote:
>
> On that one, the whole of the front opened up so that the driver and passenger could enter. That would have been around the late fifties or early sixties so, radical designs from Fiat are nothing new.
Like the Isetta bubble car? I'm trying to remember, but was it a version of the Fiat 600 - Familia, or something?
Ian
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Minor point: an Espace doesn't have a transverse engine. It has the same overhung longitudinal engine as most Audis (excluding the A2 and A3).
HJ
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Oooops, Sorry HJ Espace from 98 has the engine transversely fitted!!!!
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HJ
That sent me out to the car park to check. The vehicle is a 2.0 petrol automatic on a Y plate, and the engine is definitely transversely mounted. Of course if it was originally designed to have a longitudinally mounted engine, that would explain the long nose. I thought it was just very poor packaging.
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Sound memory, John. I'd completely forgotton that early one and must do a search for a picture of one. Anyone have any suggestions ??
KB.
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I am taking the liberty of sending you a small attachment, taken from the 1959 Motor Show guide, copied also to Ian.Hope that's alright.
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Thanks to John for reminding me of this car, which I fairly certain was based on the Fiat 600, but with a much longer floor pan. Not a wide as the new on though.
If I've got this active link posting correct:
It's here
Or try www.geocities.com/iancook2000/fiats
Ian
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geocities.com/iancook2000? target=?_blank?> Can we try this
Ian
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Well remembered, John. That early model had gone from my memory. I must do a search to find a piccy of one. Anyone have any suggestions?
KB.
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Apologies for earlier duplication.
Found a snap of the original Multipla.......www.harpin.demon.co.uk/models/SalesImages/multipla...m
Plus a question for HJ (or anyone else with a Glasses guide). What are the expected residuals on the (new) Multipla Diesel SX or ELX ? The AA guide on the internet shows it as being quite respectable. Generally, I was under the impression that Fiats generally were a bit "pile em high, sell 'em cheap" in the showrooms and that this was reflected in the, not so wonderful, second hand values.
KB.
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Thanks, John. Could you send it to kswbritton@yahoo.co.uk
Many thanks.
KB
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Anyone remember Jasper Carott's description of a people carrier?
Transit with carpets!
Regards
John
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So you're not too impressed then Alwyn. And by implication if I bought a People Carrier then I'm a wally? and furthermore Andrew Moorey IS a wally, coz he's actually got one? And if someone wants to use the vehicle they bought with their own money to carry 3 bikes in order to enjoy themselves and take a bit of exercise, then they're wallies too?.....Occurs to me that if you don't want/need one yourself then don't have one - but if Andrew finds it useful to carry his kids and disabled Mum in it, then I feel it does you no favours to call him a wally, or anyone else who happens to want one, a wally.
Your view is based on the opinion of a friend. He may not have liked it, you may not like them, but please don't toss insults about and dismiss the logic of sensible individuals to drive what they want if it suits their purpose.
KB.
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Keep trying Ian, I'm waiting with interest.
KB.
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www.geocities.com/iancook2000? target=?_blank?> OK, does this work?
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Ian Cook wrote:
>
>
> www.geocities.com/iancook2000>How about this
>
> Ian
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Well done Ian, worth waiting for.
David
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David W wrote:
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> Well done Ian, worth waiting for.
>
....and I have Mark (Brazil) to thank for showing me the errors in my active link posting. That man's a star, isn't he?
Ian
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I like people carriers.
I am moving to the UK and Adriana wants one. Probably a Voyager.
Do I need one ? Can I justify one ? Will we use it in a way approved by others ?
Don't give a stuff. Want one, can afford one, don't need approval.
Surely the point about cars is the chance to buy what you *want* irrespective of whether you need, or tohers agree. Isn't that part of the individualism of motoring we are supposed to enjoy ?
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I can't see a people carrier without thinking about Clarkson's description in the Sunday Times a few months ago.
He called them 'breeder wagons', which I think is a great name, and he castigated their normal boot space by writing that if you come back from the shops with anything larger than a walnut you need to remove some seats!
Almost on a par with his Top Gear classic about the Datsun/Alfa Romeo partnership in the 1970s. What could be better, he asked, than an Italian design with reliable mechanical bits? Unfortunately, he pointed out, the Japanese did the styling and Alfa made the mechanicals! Result: an ugly car that broke down a lot.
Regards
Pat
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Pat wrote:
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> I can't see a people carrier without thinking about
> Clarkson's description in the Sunday Times a few months ago.
>
> He called them 'breeder wagons', which I think is a great
> name, and he castigated their normal boot space by writing
> that if you come back from the shops with anything larger
> than a walnut you need to remove some seats!
Has anybody else noticed that these jounalists never complain about the boot space in a Porche, Ferrari or what ever? Apparantly people carriers don't go around corners like a Porche. As I have three kids and two dogs in mine I travel with their comfort and safety in mind and haven't noticed a problem at "normal" speeds.
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With their high level of self importance, general lack of mechanical knowledge, and detachment from "ordinary" life, the motoring journalist's pronouncements used to be quite laughable but now they border on lunacy with their emphasis on the limits of handling at speed and the assumption that the owner of the "Whizzo MK10" will gain some some social advancement by buying this or that particular vehicle.
I hope that this does not sound patronising to HJ and the forum in general but, if you really want to know about a vehicle this medium is ideal. It has someone in charge, who is obviously practical and knowledgeable and who is sensible enough to allow a very wide range of views to be published. The opinions of those who buy vehicles, run them, maintain them, and despair over them, are able to be considered and this, surely, has a million times more worth to a prospective purchaser than any of the purile pronouncements from some of the pathetic, puffed up, part time motorists whose infantile views bombard us from newspapers and television programmes and who call themselves "Motoring Journalists"
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It depends on what you use them for. Ours is used for fishing trips, ferrying elderly in-laws, holidaying with long- legged teenage offspring, picnics on long summer afternoons, buying and selling second hand furniture, car boot sales etc, etc. (Now that's where the extra height really comes in useful). All of this in the road space of Xantia estate.
The handling does take some getting used to but it's pretty good -just different.
Add to that, total reliability over 5 years and that sums up the Citroen Synergie.
I wouldn't be without it!
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Ah! The other member of the Citroen Synergie owners club.
We have 4 children from age 20 to 5 (oops) and the Synergie does everthing I ask of it, but it's not inspirational driving.
It's been exceptionally reliable and trouble-free up to 90k miles.
Now where is that rabbit's foot?
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Well said and another positive contribution to support ownership of these alternative vehicles.
The MPV is SO versatile and SO interesting. No, it's handling, speed, and appearance is not too exciting (except my beautiful looking Toyota Masterace)but, the benefits are considerable. I could go on and on (So, I will)
How else could I ?
Transport the four of us AND four bikes, in comfort, inside the vehicle and no bike racks required ?
Draw the curtains, fold down the bed, and take a nap on those long journeys
Take ice cubes from the fridge for SWMBO's gin & tonic
Load up with (sometimes) six Grandfather clocks and loads of various items for my antique and clock fair stall.
Sit at a table, with four of the seats swivelled, and enjoy a meal in comfort.
Satisfy the comfort of front and rear passengers with individual climate control.
Add more sunshine, or draw the blinds, on the superb "Skylite, six light roof.
The MPV becomes less of a vehicle and more of a way of life but, it suits my purpose, just as the many, fairly bland saloon cars have, which I have enjoyed over the years.
Drawbacks ? I shall have to give that some thought ! ! !
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Allegedly one gets rather irritated by the constant removal of seats, personal effects, in order to swap cars with colleagues who want to go to the tip, take the crew to a concert, transport furniture what have you. Has the office bike been transformed into the office van?
After the fifteenth short term lending episode of his Voyager would Mark then be thinking, at least no one would want to borrow a F.............
multiple smilies?
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FIF,
I am already thinking of an essential reason to borrow the Dodge Ram when/if that gets here.
Fenland Rodeo Finals??
David
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Yee hah, where did I put those roper gloves?
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Ian:
That Jag your Dad owned is a beautiful looking machine. I've never seen one before. Have you found out how much they are worth today?
Thanks for your efforts
Andy
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Andy S wrote:
>
> Ian:
>
> That Jag your Dad owned is a beautiful looking machine. I've
> never seen one before. Have you found out how much they are
> worth today?
>
> Thanks for your efforts
>
> Andy
Sadly, Andy, I haven't - and I'm not sure I'd know how to go about it. I had an interesting e-mail from John Davis yesterday, and I'm sure he won't mind my sharing part of it with you:
"I remember that cars like this were commonplace when I was "a lad". You are NOT going to like this. During my apprenticeship, in the late fifties, I helped a neighbour out with his 1500 Jaguar. This must have been something in the region of a 1936/7 model and it was a four cylinder side valve. We had a hard winter around 1957, no antifreeze in the engine and the block cracked. The neighbour sold the car for 12 pounds to a lad who wanted the wheels to put on to a "special" which he was building, and then went off to the local Vauxhall dealer and put a deposit on one of those wonderful ? ?? new Victors."
Taking up John's theme, I'm sure there are many of us who can remember lovely old cars that weren't worth buttons - then! David Woollard also had experience of one of the post war 2.5 litre Jaguars, owned by a Maltese neighbour of his - the man put a Triumph 2000 engine in it! At least it probably kept it running.
I've got several old photos of Dad's cars that I'll have to dig out and (selectively) put on that geocities web site.
I'll post again later. Although, I wonder if Lee H would like them for his HJ community photos page.
Ian
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Indeed, I was thinking the same myself. Not only a fine car, but also a interesting photo. with few other cars parked in the road and 1950's neatly clipped privet hedges in the background. Thanks for posting that, Ian.
KB.
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Some interesting responses there, from which I suspect that the MPV I drove (Renault Espace, 2001 model) isn't the best of the breed, either in space utilisation or driver appeal. Even if I had a large family, I'm not sure I could put up with driving something that gives so little driving pleasure as my only car, but as a second car, I can see the sense in it. I'd still rather have a Land Rover Defender station wagon in this role, but that's just me.
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"Toyota... Townace, Liteace or Masterace has to be imported"
I didn't know about the third one. Is that for German export only...?
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