I've always thought Ripley in the DT talke c**p. After the time he endorsed a letter gloating over the death of a biker and effectively said the guy deserved to die I've stopped reading him. [1]
However I happened to dip in today and was (not) suprised to see him suggest that Intensive courses are worse than the traditional "hour a week" method.
Now, I've done both. The 3 day intensive was excellent. I lived and breathed road craft for 5 days. (Test & CBT were extra days) I learned so much that I hadn't following the 30 hours I had at 1 hour a week.
Even Ripley could only come up with one advantage of the '1 hr a week' approach. That the person will travel as a passenger between lessons. Well you can do that between days of an intensive course too.
1) Sense of pride in your roadcraft having done a 'course'.
2) No period where you lose skill between lessons.
3) You're on the road at all times of the day.
4) There's time to talk and think about road craft in meal breaks.
The only advantage I can think of the hour a week approach is that you spread the cost.
They should double the length of HJ's column and sack Ripley. HJ writes better too!
[1] Although the DT kindly let the poor chap's daughter clear his good name after Ripleys lies. Very moving - worth a search.
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Before my list of 4 I obviously meant to say 'I feel the advantages of the intensive course are:'
I'd also like to point out that when you do a degree you don't do it in 1 hour periods over 50 years do you!
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No, but you get half term and holidays! I am in education and would say thay people learn in different ways. Some will like an hour or two, then a break to allow things to sink in. Others will prefer to get it over and done with. The great thing here is that there is a choice to suit individuals' lifestyles and learning patterns. On the other hand, the government is trying to introduce a 6 term year to schools, because short sharp sessions are felt to benefit students more, and they forget a lot of last year's work over the summer.
Paul is a bit righteous though on occasions.
Mike
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Intensive courses are not for everyone Dave. They are very effective for those who learn quickly and are enthusiastic about driving. For a lot of people, however, they are too much. After two hours some students have taken as much as they can absorb and any longer is just a waste of time, being confidence shattering and counter productive if anything. It's very much a case of horses for courses. Think of a subject that you would not find easy to learn, maths or physics for if that is the case, and imagine spending four hours at a time for a week or more trying to reach exam standard.
I must defend PR re the case of the biker. He did not gloat over the accident, he merely pointed out the mistake of a rider who crashed on his own entering a bend too fast. His apology to the mans daughter was for the distress reading the article caused, not for the contents of the article. I have never seen anything he has written that is not accepted by all driver training organisations as good practise.
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> I have never seen anything he has written that is not accepted by all
> driver training organisations as good practise.
I once read PR saying that there is no point in indicating if you are going to turn round a corner if nobody is around. UTTER GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you're god (which he thinks he is), then you never know who is around, watching to see if you put the indicators on and go round a corner.
I also saw him teach some kid on a TV program, a do it yourself ABS system of mashing the brake on and off as quick as you can. I'll say it again.. UTTER GARBAGE!!!
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Called cadance braking, Todd. Been taught to emergency service drivers for decades, and it is that system which actually led to the development of ABS for cars.
As for use of indicators, using them when you know there is no one else around, for instance pulling away on a straight wide road with an unrestricted view is not nescessary. However, that advice should always be qualified by saying that if in any doubt at all, indicate.
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Cadence braking was taught to me as part of learning to drive back in 1982.....long before ABS was available on your average car (when was it invented for F1?) I have found it extremely useful when driving non-ABS equipped cars on both the UK and Australia. A very useful driving lesson IMHO
In most skid schools they will either disable or make you drive a
non-abs car as well to make sure you can handle all types of skid
emergency.
Ian L.
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Is this a wind up or are you really stupid , ABS is effectively cadance braking.Advanced drivers have used it for years before ABS , the stopping distance is increased on a car were the wheels have locked up.
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Not so Jud. The stopping distance is REDUCED when the wheels lock. The downside is that the driver has no control over the direction of the car, hence the use of cadance braking and ABS.
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Absolutely.
It is felt that a trade-off - slightly LONGER stopping distance, but retain steering - is a Good Thing.
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Is that ALL Advanced Driving is "GARBAGE"?
Or just the bits you don't want to hear?
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"I have never seen anything he has written that is not accepted by all driver training organisations as good practice".
Obviously some of the people here do not want to hear that.
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Trevor Potter wrote:
>
> "I have never seen anything he has written that is not
> accepted by all driver training organisations as good
> practice".
>
> Obviously some of the people here do not want to hear that.
Nah, it's the same Trevor Potter who said you should use half the Highway Code stopping distances (cos it's not a law, just a rule, so it's ok for him to break it).
I wonder what Mr Ripley's writings on that are?
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Fair play on both counts Tom!
Horses for courses. I still feel that advice that people should *only* learn at 1 hour a week is misleading. Airline pilots, Astronauts and Police Drivers all learn full time. I didn't intent to suggest that Intensive was always best. Just that it was as good.
I think you may be right about the article now too! On reflection if the guy fell off alone (and that is my recollection) I guess he must have done something stupid.
I guess we do need that edit button!
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Having been there, done that and got the T-shirt by misjudging a bend on an unfamiliar road, finding loose gravel on the outside of the bend and missing a wall by inches with the handlebars, I would argue that on a bike you don't need to do something stupid to have bad consequences, only make a small error which in a car might cause you to lose a bit of paint.
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I, too, thoroughly disagreed with PR's advice that you do not have to indicate if you can't see anybody else around.
It didn't stand up in several situations, for example if at night there was a pedestrian in dark clothing about to cross the road you were turning into, or an unlit cyclist about to come out.
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Agreed. It's a case of getting into good habits and indicating should be an automatic action. If no-one's around to see it, what's the harm?
I have to admit, in similar vein, to saying 'thank you' aloud to a cash machine as the money appeared. Luckily nobody was around, but it was an an automatic response and a sign of my decent upbringing, and it had nothing to do with the beer!
Pat
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I've had gravel panics too Brian. I certainly wouldn't have described it as sensible... ;-)
But yeah stupid was an ill considered word to use.
My standard ploy when riding at pace with someone quicker than me is to point out 'How much gravel there is floating about the road surfaces in this part of the world'.
They never trust their own observation and always enter bends much more cautiously allowing me to wop their pasty white ar$es!
Hmmmm. The power of suggestion! Wonder if it works with squash?
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Up in London the problem to watch for (with cars as well as bikes) is the fact that the middles of the roads don't get swept.
Traffic normally keeps them clear, EXCEPT coming up to islands, where there is always loose gravel, debris etc. Up against the facing island kerb you can get a three inch build-up.
Anything trying to brake on that just goes straight on (and over the island).
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Yes, I tend to agree, FiF. There seems to be a greater tendency NOT to indicate in any circumstances, to the extent that I'm beginning to suspect that some cars aren't fitted with indicators in the factory.
In general, I don't have a problem with PR's writings, but he should be persuading people to use there indicators whenever turning or overtaking. It's not as if we have to stick our arms out of the windows nowadays, is it?
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Sorry guys I disagree with you about this indicating thing.
If you indicate when there is/could be someone to gain advantage from the signal and do not indicate when you are *sure* there is nobody what is wrong with that?
If you just indicate automatically then you are not thinking about it in my humble opinion.
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When are you ever absolutely, 100% sure that nobody is about on the public road. Not 90% sure, or 99%, or 99.9%, but actually 100% certain that nobody is about, and is looking as to whether you are going to go round the corner. The answer is never.
It costs nothing to indicate, so why not, unless you're too lazy.
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If you've got indicators why not use them whether it is necessary or not. A good habit to get in.
(Off topic a bit, but if you have lights (a) why not use them the whole time (b) what is the point of side lights - all these people driving around at dusk with piddly side lists on)
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Changing the subject even further, I know, but ...
When cars use headlights all the time (and far too many do light up too early) other things, like motorbikes, cyclists and pedestrains, are harder to see.
As for side lights, there is a definite need for them. In good weather there is a period in the morning and the evening when you need lights on your car to make you easier to see, but there is quite enough daylight that you can see where you're going without dipped headlights.
Unfortunately, for this to work there needs to be a standardisation of sidelights as there presumably is already for dipped and main lights. Manufacturers currently seem to be competing with each other to see how much light from a 5W bulb they can prevent from getting through a transparent piece of plastic.
GJD
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And your foglights, in case you forget to put them on once its foggy (like most people round here seem to do!) And while you're on, why not activate your airbag, just in case it doesn't go off when you need it!
The thing with the indicators - and everything else - is that you need to PREVENT it being automatic (unless its a gearbox, I suppose!)
Getting enough info in to decide whether you need to use indicators means you are actively LOOKING for the other road user- good thing?
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Sounds about right to me.
(But then what do I know)
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Sorry Tom Shaw, you'd already said that, doh!
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Todd,
Looks like we have to agree to disagree on that one then.
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Sorry, FiF.
You can never be *sure*.
"I didn't indicate because I didn't see you" is not a phrase I would wish to use in court!
And if it's automatic you don't forget. There is no more need to think "I must indicate" than "I must change gear".
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Absolutely. Don't think about either.
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Mr Potter - I genuinely thought that despite our many differences-( for which I daily thank the almighty) you and I (and every other 'advanced driver' ) would be in accord on this one.
But no, you have amazed me again.
If you teach this, you shouldn't be. A teacher, that is.
Think again - this would fit with not looking out of the window for 44feet in every 132ft and your 'stopping distance' debacle...
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Rightly or wrongly if there's nobody about on a motorway or DC, I don't always indicate.
..and I've always thought that on DC or Motorway, if someone needs to be warned of your intentions maybe you shouldn't be making the manoever.... Obviously there are a million exceptions to the above rule.
For example:
You're in lane 2 of a motorway having overtaken a car. He's 10 car lengths behind you travelling 20mph slower. I can see there's nobody behind within 300 yards, ditto in front. Does he really need an indicator to know I'm pulling back in?
Conversely I *never* assume that an indicator means anything and prepare for the guy[1] to do something completely unexpected...
[1] More likely a woman. ;-)
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Actually, I just think it is easier to have the habit to indicate everytime. Sure some of the indicating is wasted, but its better to indicate 1000 times without need then not indicate one time when you really should have done.
And its easier to have the habit of indicating than it is to work out everytime whether or not you should.
On the other point;
someone indicating to turn and then not, or not indicating and then turning.
If you have an accident in this case, somebody else's indicating behaviour is not going to help you explain or defend why you pulled out in front of someone or whatever else happened. You will lose your NCD.
I suppose that is why it is called an "indicator" and not "an absolute intention to turn with commitment implied".
Well, that and the fact that "indicator" is easier to say.
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"Actually, I just think it is easier to have the habit to indicate everytime. "
Or is it better to avoid habit and make every move from first principles?
I do the full on WW2 fighter pilot look around in every direction conceiveable before making the decision to change lanes/overtake.
I'd hate to get into the habit of indicator - manoever that lot's of other drivers seem to show. (I'm not claiming to have above average observation of course...)
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Spot on, I'd say.
The world sems to divide into 'look and think before you do anything' and the BSM way - (Brakes, Signal (saves thining) Manoevre.
That is what it stands for, isn't it?
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>Or is it better to avoid habit and make every move from first principles?
As I suspect you realise, I meant the habit to indicate, not the habit to blindly execute maneuvers.
Clearly you need to make all the checks and take all the are, but why add to it ?
Many times you see people making what would be quite a safe, and well-planned, turn which would have been so much better with an indicator.
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The other mistake is to indicate too late.
E.g. sitting at lights where there are two lanes of traffic and the offside lane is "forward or right", only indicating right when the lights change, so traffic going straight on gets stuck behind and ends up trying to cut into the inside lane.
What are they doing that for:-saving battery power or bulb wear?
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"As I suspect you realise, I meant the habit to indicate, not the habit to blindly execute maneuvers."
Yes I did realise!
"Clearly you need to make all the checks and take all the are, but why add to it ?"
Because if there's a *pressing* need to indicate perhaps you shouldn't be making the manoever? Anyway traveling at 70 on a straight clear motorway you need something to occupy your mind other than the radio!
"Many times you see people making what would be quite a safe, and well-planned, turn which would have been so much better with an indicator."
A turn is a different case to open road. On a turn you are doing 3mph. Someone coming behind you could be onto you immediately. Even if nobdy is there now it's *possible* that someone could whiz along on overtake you as you were going right.
On the open road if you are pulling in after a 95mph overtake of a metro doing 70 it's *very* unlikely that someone will catch you from nowhere and undertake you with a massive closing speed. [1]
[1] Although I bet I could!
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And if you are approaching a maneouvre where you have gone through the thought process, is there somebody, no, could there be somebody, maybe, better indicate then, I think you are more likely not to put your vehicle where your eyes and brain have not been first.
So in effect the proportion of times you indicate cf to when you don't might very well be 99+% compared to sod all, at least you've THOUGHT about it first. Thats my point.
Not very well put I admit, it IS Friday after all.
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WHAT? are you nuts? telling them our secrets?
(as in THINKING about it instead of just "automatic pilot")
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Eh?
Is this the same Potter who says above 'don't think about either'?
I think it's time for your tablets!
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>>On the open road if you are pulling in after a 95mph overtake of a metro
>>doing 70 it's *very* unlikely that someone will catch you from nowhere and
>>undertake you with a massive closing speed. [1]
>>
>>[1] Although I bet I could!
Only if I let you.
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"Only if I let you."
;-)
That settles it.
When the HJ ex pats get back we need a HJ site London to Brighton Death Race.
A cross between the Cannon Ball Run, Penelope Pitstop's Wacky Races and the race in Ben Hur.
The only rules are:
1) All competetors must consume a bottle of Tescos own brand vodka before the start.
2) All competetors must have those sword things on their wheels, like on the statue of Bodecea on the Embankmant.
3) All competetors must play 'Ride of the Valkeries' at full blast on their stereo system.
4) All vehicles must have either a valid MOT *or* a dastardly yet unconvincing weapon or device to hinder other competators.
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>>1) All competetors must consume a bottle of Tescos own brand vodka before the start.
>>2) All competetors must have those sword things on their wheels, like on the statue of Bodecea on the Embankmant.
>>3) All competetors must play 'Ride of the Valkeries' at full blast on their stereo system.
>>4) All vehicles must have either a valid MOT *or* a dastardly yet unconvincing weapon or device to hinder other competators.
Clearly you have experience of the rush hour in Rio de Janeiro................
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Starting Prices:
Dave Woolard '69 2/1/4 LWB Land Rover 10/1
'Dave' '91 Rover 214Si 25/1
Dave Lacey '88 7L Austin Metro Mayfair 13/1
Honest John '02 1.0L Toyota Yaris 10/1
Mark (Brazil) '01 Toyota Hilux 25/1
Guy Lacey '79 LPG Mk1 VW Golf GTi 20/1
'The' '99 Ambulance. (Passenger) 6/1 [1]
'Mark' '91 Saab 9000 2.3 50/1
'dan' 'XX Anything 4/1 [2]
LAS '90 Lada Riva 1000/1
Flat in Fifth '98 Thrust 2 10/1 [3]
[1] Siren helps.
[2] We know this guy is fast. ;-)
[3] Not so hot on the corners!
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Dave,
In the tradition of there's always somebody who sits in the Little Chef swapping the sausage in the Early Starter for extra bacon, and the tomato for mushrooms.
Can I swap Thrust 2 for that Stalwart they did up in Salvage Squad, always wanted a go in one of those.
Of course I'd have to cross any water in amphibian mode, and I promise to bring the beer for the finish party.
Please sir, sir, sir, please sir.
Looking forward to it already.
FiF
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Where's the formating gone!
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most of ripleys advice is based on old time police "advanced" driving techniques
many of which have been discredited over the years, many of which always had a cautionary rider that they did not applu in all circumstances
i remember reading police advanced authors cica the 60's and their advice pretty much mirrors what Mr Ripley says
however things have moved on, police have been shown not to be the masters of advanced driving they thought they were (arogant as usual), and current ABS, PAS etc etc demand different techniques
reading Mr Ripley I am always suspicious that he probably doesnt do that many miles these days
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"current ABS, PAS etc etc demand different techniques"
please advise what these are - or more correctly what you THINK they are.
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I'll have you chaps know that today's Daily Telegraph carries an admittedly small announcement that reads a follows:-
"Motoring award. The Worshipful Company of Carmen of London has awarded its annual Royal Logistic Corps Safety Award to Paul Ripley, the safer driving columninst for The Daily Telegraph's Saturday Motoring section."
These days it's more profitable to be politically correct than to be correct.
HJ
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HJ may still be a little jet-lagged or suffering from a mild case of the bends! For those still scouring today's DT, try the Court page of *yesterday's* DT under "Dinners" from which the above paraphrasing is derived.
HJ - Only serves to prove the "correctness" of your para 2 above!
Best wishes.
Jack
PS Wonder why Rippers couldn't collect it himself, and indeed have sometimes vaguely wondered why we don't hear from him on safety issues aired in this forum ....
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Tch. Tch. It was repeated in my edition of today's DT. Since I have never heard of the Society of Carmen (is it operatic?) or its Logistic Corps, I can't say I was terribly moved by the granting of this award to the holier-than-everyone-else Mr Ripley.
David
PS: I believe in indicating but I also have one car without indicators in which I use hand signals which probably get more attention than flashing indicators because everyone else seems to slow and wonder what I am going to do next!
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>please advise what these are - or more correctly what you THINK they are
Trevor, do stop it.
I know there are some people who become confrontational on every issue, but you really don't need to be one of them.
Why not just discuss it even if you do disagree.
This Forum has become far too hostile of late. Be nice and disagree, its Friday - POETS day.
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You do not understand - I am REALLY interested in what these "new techniques" are!
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ABS?
Is that that thing I saw on Tomorrow's World recently where you are supposed to forget about locking your brakes, and cadence braking, and just floor the pedal as hard as you can and keep it there (and actually try to steer round the hazard!).
Can't see it working myself: it'll never catch on.
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Message to UJ: The item I copied was on page 6, column 8 of issue 26.04.2002. Could be that it was in the previous day's paper, but it was also in today's. Obviously political correctness is worthy of repetition.
HJ
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I thought that maximum decelleration was achieved at the point where the tyres are just beginning to lose grip, as distinct from actually locked up.
Any more thoughts? Interesting range of opinions so far!
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David Millar,
It is the Worshipful Company of Carmen of London. Don?t forget ?Worshipful?
It is not their Corps but The Royal Logistic Corps(RLC) who are the largest Corps in the British Army and incorporate what was formerly the Royal Corps of Transport(RCT) and before that the Royal Army Service Corps(RASC).
Not a lot of people know that! ? cos it?s a secret.
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