I have a diesel Skoda Superb - good at its job, no problems. I also need to replace a venerable PSA diesel hatchback - brilliant in its day, but just a few too many rattles at 130k miles (engine is still brilliant though).
I had a look at the new Fabia - which will do the job as would several other small hatchbacks - until you work out the cost of cambelts. Running 2 VAG PD diesels will cost about £200 pa in belt changes alone as each car would need a belt every 4 years under my operating regime.
The Superb is here to stay (towing, legroom etc) but it seems running another VAG diesel alongside it would be stupid.
The spec for the hatchback car is pretty non critical but for a few essentials for long term bangernomics. I need a galvanised body, chain cam engine and a diesel engine (important to minimise risk of mis-fuelling and to limit CO2 emissions). I also much prefer driving diesel cars.
Any suggestions?
659.
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I agree re the cost of cambelt changes, my Mondeo has saved me in the region of £1200 in respect of the Vectra V6 that preceeded in needing two £600 belt jobs in 120k miles. Not withstanding the £5000 ish saving in fuel over that mileage.
Shame that Ford are going away from chain cam (on diesel engines at least) with the PSA tie up.
Toyota springs to mind, Yaris or Auris D4D. What is you budget? X-Type estate? 118d, 120d?
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Budget is by no means the first consideration. The car needs to be a smallish hatchback - no bigger than a Polo. The cheapest car to meet the spec gets the job. Is the Yaris chain cam and galvanised?
659.
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The cam belt on the 2.0 PSA HDi engine is on 100k changes - on the 1.4 it's 150k I think (C3 1.4 HDi is about Polo sized, and will go to the moon and back on an egg cup of diesel - well nearly anyway!). Get one where it's already been done, and you will not need to change it in your ownership. In any case if it breaks, it just does a few rockers in, so repair is reasonably cheap. Plenty of cheap Xsaras about.
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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The cam belt on the 2.0 PSA HDi engine is on 100k changes
I'm superstitious so I changed our 2.0HDI cambelt, water pump and coolant last year at a local trusted independent when it was on 40,000 miles. The whole lot cost £240.
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Meant to add "The whole lot cost £240 ..." including a service.
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I have sort of a similar situation....what to change my 05 Focus 1.6 petrol for, which has never impressed me. We can get away with a smaller, more economical hatch (the Focus is poor at 35 to 39 mpg max). We also have an Octavia tdi, which has already cost me around £400 for cambelt etc. The Fabias look impressive but the petrols aren't particularly economical, while the PD diesels appear high maintenance units - cambelt every 40K I believe. I detest cambelt changes! The Yaris seems to fit the bill - they're all chain cam. The 1.3 petrol looks a good bet for long term hassle-free ownership and good mpg. There's a lot less to go wrong out of warranty than the 1.4 diesel and a lot cheaper too. The old model looks pretty good value now, the new model is still a bit pricey.
Not sure about galvanisation, but never seen a rusty one.
Baz
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I have sort of a similar situation....what to change my 05 Focus 1.6 petrol for which has never impressed me. We can get away with a smaller more economical hatch (the Focus is poor at 35 to 39 mpg max).
Honda Jazz?
OK, it's not diesel, but it'll do 50MPG. Dealer servicing is a little on the high side, but they generally use fully synth oil which bumps the price up. Reasonably torquey feeling, chain cam, engine.
Ours is coming up to 4 yrs old and (touch wood) feels like it'll run for ever.
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Budget is by no means the first consideration. The car needs to be a smallish hatchback - no bigger than a Polo. The cheapest car to meet the spec gets the job. Is the Yaris chain cam and galvanised?
How about a Kia Rio 1.5 CRDi (wait for a badge-snobs to come out!). Cracking engine, bags of torque, 110BHP, chain-cam, about Polo-sized. Rust hasn't been an issue on Kias either. Just misses out on the cheap road-tax, but £115/year still isn't bad. Only annoyance is the indicators being on the "wrong" side, but that only takes me half an hour to adjust to. Certainly worth considering because there's always good offers on special editions or pre-reg models.
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Thanks Greg. Apart from the almost certain lack of galvanising, having two cars with indicator stalks on differing sides is absolutely out. I had this once, years ago (one of them was a Renault 16 - merde) - never again.
659.
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"Is the Yaris chain cam and galvanised?"
Yes
and Yes.
I'm very please with mine
madf
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>>a diesel engine (important to minimise risk of mis-fuelling and to limit CO2 emissions).
A petrol engine would eliminate the risk of mis-fueling - the diesel nozzle doesn't fit!
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Can someone please explain what a VAG is?
Cheers
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Vancouver Art Gallery :)
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Acronym Definition
VAG Freiburger Verkehrs Ag (German transportation company)
VAG Vagrancy
VAG Vancouver Art Gallery
VAG Versicherungsaufsichtsgesetz (German: supervision of insurance companies act)
VAG Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft
VAG Volkswagen Audi Geselschaft
VAG VRML Architecture Group
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So is it just VAG that have cam belts as opposed to chains?
How much a consideration should this be when buying, as I am thinking of getting a diesel at the moment!
Cheers
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> So is it just VAG that have cam belts as opposed to chains?
No, plenty of other manufacturers use belts; a couple have already been mentioned in this thread.
> How much a consideration should this be when buying, as I am thinking of getting a diesel at the moment!
Belt changes are an added maintenance cost and if they're neglected they can snap causing all sorts of expensive damage, depending on the engine. Assuming the oil is kept clean, a timing chain can last the life of the engine. Look at Q26 in Honest John's FAQs for a list of engines that have chain or gear drive as opposed to belt.
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Brilliant!
Thanks Scott!!!
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Thanks for all the contributions - if I can sort out the galvanisation issues a small Jap diesel might just do the job.
The real problem here is that Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft has chosen a system of diesel fuel injection (the PD) which although very efficient, is really hard on cambelts. That's why there is now a 4 year restriction on them.
The Superb gives something for its (comparitavely) low purchase price in terms of almost unmatched engine efficiency in a big car, so I forgive it a belt every 4 years - factored in at the time of the purchasing decision. The hatchback is far less critical, hence this thread.
Another PSA diesel with a long cambelt change interval is a possibility, but cars are now electrically very complicated and the French have traditionally been not too good with electricity. The old ('98) PSA diesel has had more than its fair share of electrical problems and is a base model - heaven help a more complicated version. Seeing a 21 way electrical connector in the front LH wheel arch does not inspire confidence (it's now in a plastic bag).
Two remaining questions then: Do Honda make a chain drive small diesel? Do either (or both) Honda or Toyota galvanise their cars? I'm not really prepared to compromise on this.
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£200 PA = £4 per week and thats for 2 cars (and I'd bet you could get a cheaper price for fitting a belt than £400). If you find a car with belt intervals of double the VAG PDs then you'll save a wopping £1 per week. Look at the bigger picture........
Buy an earlier non PD Golf TDi, they'e more economical, 60K belt changes and get your hands dirty
tdiclub.com/articles/A3-TimingBelt/
;O)
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And looking at things another way, how long exactly are you wanting to keep the car?
I would suspect that most modern CR diesels are going to be in the danger zone when it comes to possible failures long before the bodywork starts to rot.
Non-galvanised cars will still last around 12-14 years before the rust starts to take a hold. Do you really want to run a car for 20 years?
Two 3-year-old non-galvanised cars bought consecutively would seem to me to make more sense than one galvanised car made to last long past its sell-by date.
By all means buy a galvanised car, but like the cambelt thing, don't get too fixated would be my advice.
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Buy a Renault. They don't rust. Problem solved.
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Buy a Renault. They don't rust. Problem solved.
Or -- buy a Nissan. They don't rust either, and are chain-cam in the main. The 2.2dCi Nissan unit is chain-cam.
Problem being that they're relatively unreliable these days.
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Thanks for the link - I'm familiar with the old TDi engine, but they and the cars they're in are all too old now. Changing a belt on a PD diesel is, if anything a bit easier (except on the Passat clone where the front end has to be pulled forward) as there is no need to use VAGCOM to reset the injection timing.
I take your point about the costs - I'm a mean bu---r and as the hatchback is a "non critical" purchase in terms of operational performance, I don't see why I should pay up when better solutions are available from other makers. I'm getting a bit too old now to "enjoy" changing timing belts, so the costs do become more significant. Any offers for a chain cam car with galvanised metalwork?
659.
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Any offers for a chain cam car with galvanised metalwork?
I've thought about this, and as far as I know the only maker (apart from BMW and other high-end manufacturers) who falls into this category is Nissan.
Their newer cars are galvanised (12-year rot warranty), and have been chain-cam for years, diesels included.
Problem being, as I say -- are they reliable enough any more? And, are there any cars in the range you like? Qashqai possibly an option.
Still think you're limiting yourself too much though.
Just a final though though -- I'm sure I read that the Kia Cee'd is galvanised (10-year rust warranty IIRC). May be worth looking into, as the engines are certainly chain-cam.
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Thanks. Hadn't thought about Nissan - I'll have a look. I do hope that pollution from Renault hasn't occurred though. I won't go anywhere near a product from this maker - and my last one was a Renault 16!
659.
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Just a final though though -- I'm sure I read that the Kia Cee'd is galvanised (10-year rust warranty IIRC). May be worth looking into as the engines are certainly chain-cam.
That's a good point - it's Kia's first car with the indicators on the left, so eliminates that problem. It's focus-sized so a bit bigger that the OP's requirements, but the 7-year warranty must be a buying point surely?!
You could always try a Fiat Grande Punto - their 1.3 Multijet is chain-cam AFAIK, and they tend to galvanise. Will probably have more reliable electrics than the French manufacturers as well.
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One hidden plus of running diesels - (cambelt or chain) is that exhausts tend to last longer, so you probably save two system replacements during the life of a car.
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One hidden plus of running diesels - (cambelt or chain) is that exhausts tend to last longer so you probably save two system replacements during the life of a car.
That's a very good point, although I've noticed exhausts on petrols have begun to last a lot longer now that they all have catalytic converters - my old Nissan Sunny (without cat) used to eat exhausts, but current Almera has lasted 7 years on the original. Suppose the quality of the exhaust makes a difference as well.
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I've been advised that my local independent will change a Zetec cambelt for £150. View it as a service item. How can selecting a deiseed engine minimise the risk of Miss Fuelling?
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The misfuelling is almost certain to occur if I have one car of each type - rather like having one car with the indicator switch on the "wrong" side.
The Superb got there first and had to be a diesel for operational reasons - that's why the next hatchback will also be a diesel.
659.
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Oh. I see. Operational reasons.
What is, or what was, 659FBE? An interesting motorcycle perhaps?
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The misfuelling is almost certain to occur if I have one car of each type - rather like having one car with the indicator switch on the "wrong" side.
Surely having the fuel filler cap or bonnet latch on different sides, or the light switch on the dash instead of the stalk, would be more irritating than the two differences you mention?
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