What is it with the british and new cars

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Tue 22 May 2007 09:59
What is it with the british and new cars - sony
... So many people I know and work with change their cars religiously every 3 years. In france it's barely the case, they only chuck them when the engine is dead! What is it with you brits and cars!!
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Tue 22 May 2007 10:11
What is it with the british and new cars - Xileno {P}
"they only chuck them when the engine is dead! "

So that's about every three years then :-)
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Tue 22 May 2007 10:27
What is it with the british and new cars - LHM
Probably a fundamental difference in their attitude to life. Instead of being nose-to-the-grindstone, materialistic, keep-up-with-the-Joneses wage-slaves, most French people have a 'joie de vivre' which places much less emphasis on ostentation. Many towns and villages have a haphazard approach to buildings and their maintenace but guess what - it looks far more appealing than Milton Keynes!

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Tue 22 May 2007 10:31
What is it with the british and new cars - nick
Because it's nice to have something new;
because you get 3 years warranty thus no worries;
because you get a safer car;
because you get a more effficient car;
because I'm worth it!
If you can afford it, why not? I can't see the point in getting into debt for it though.
(Though actually I buy pre-reg or one year old.)
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:11
What is it with the british and new cars - J Bonington Jagworth
"because you get 3 years warranty thus no worries"

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, isn't it? I know a chap whose new Peugeot was off the road for most of its first 9 months because of an obscure electrical fault (finally traced to water ingress from the boot lid reaching the CD changer which kept trying to report its plight to the engine management system!)

Still, it's a good job someone is paying all that depreciation so the rest of us don't have to... :-)
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Tue 22 May 2007 10:54
What is it with the british and new cars - Saltrampen
Parents live in France and tell me that there are many old cars over there kept going due to many small local mechanics who know older (simpler) french cars backwards and can get spares etc to keep them going until rust kills them off.
Perhaps with this set-up the French are reluctant to splash out on a New Renault or PSA car with its highly complex electronics and control systems which probably leave the local mechanic scratching his head - that and the fact that they are more likely to get dented in cities.
Compare with Britain where there are too many small local mechanics who like to charge older car owners excessive amounts at the same time as not knowing the older car backwards.

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Tue 22 May 2007 11:06
What is it with the british and new cars - Xileno {P}
Definitely a cultural thing. Obviously a generalisation but the French I have known and lived with when I was there have a different attitude to cars. A car is a tool, a means of getting around. It isn't anything like the status symbol is often is in the UK. I know a very respectable notaire who drives a Clio. Wouldn't happen in the UK - it would be a BMW or similar.

They don't look after their cars as well either, at least not cosmetically. When I was there and took my Renault into a carroserie to have the bumper painted (it got a graze from careless parking), the proprietor couldn't understand why. It's a bumper - that's what they are for...

It's not unusual to see quite new cars with cosmetic damage. I used to wonder why, since they would lose money on a trade in. But then I realised they don't lose money, since they keep their cars until they die.
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:11
What is it with the british and new cars - boxsterboy
This healthier sort of attitude to cars seems to be prevailing in the larger cities (eg London) more these days, possibly due to the increase in immigration. I read that London is now the 7th biggest city in the world with French residents.
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:15
What is it with the british and new cars - J Bonington Jagworth
"the French are reluctant to splash out on a New Renault or PSA car with its highly complex electronics"

I'm not disagreeing, but it seems odd that those cars are (presumably) designed by their countrymen. You'd think the land of the 2CV would revere simplicity. Perhaps they are trying to impress us!
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:18
What is it with the british and new cars - bazza
I do think the OP has a point here, there is a difference in our approaches. I've spent a fair bit of time in France both with work and holiday. I used to work for a multinational with a plant south of Paris. Over here, the usual set up applied, company car in accordance with managerial level etc, so the corporate uniform tended to be 5 series, Audi A6 etc, almost without exception.. Over there, I remember having a lift from the hotel with the French MD, in ....his Renault Twingo. Now I guess one wouldn't see that too often over here (sadly)
Go to any French campsite in summer and play "spot the Nationality". Easy, anything large, new, shiny and expensive is almost certainly British! (Other clues are the hideously embarrassing Union Jacks often adorning the rather obese and shiny caravans we also seem to prefer!)
Walk around Paris and people-watch. Watch stunning people getting out of battered Clios, Twingos, Meganes. The car is secondary, a tool to move around in, rather than the image itself..
I wonder why, maybe it's the class system alive and well over here? !!
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:28
What is it with the british and new cars - MVP
A couple of years ago, whilst in Paris, we played a game of "spotting the car without a dent"

Amazing as you walk alongside parked cars - it's an awfull long way before you see a car that doesn't have a parking dent or three.

No way I'd want a new car if I lived there.
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:01
What is it with the british and new cars - zm
Compare with Britain where there are too many small local mechanics who like to charge
older car owners excessive amounts at the same time as not knowing the older car
backwards.


It is not a case of 'they like to charge excessive amounts' - though I'm sure there those that do - It is simple economics. We have a much higher cost base in this country than in France largely down to high property prices. You too would have to charge accordingly if you were a self employed garage owner.
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:06
What is it with the british and new cars - Xileno {P}
That does explain some of the difference but not all. I suspect, as is often the case, it's down to the UK's market economy. Although that's a bit of a joke really, it's more like a 'we will charge what we think we can get away with' economy.
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:59
What is it with the british and new cars - Saltrampen
Zm
No objection to hourly rates, we can take them or leave them and they are made clear if asked about. There are some in my area who seem to bump up the hours they charge for jobs that I cannot see take that long. Equally there are local mechanics who geniune and charge reasonably - However from my experience there are too many of one type and not enough of the other. At least in franchised dealerships they have a fixed table to work to...but once you have an older car..the usual "it was rusted solid!" stuff starts - could be genuine, but equally good way of charging loads for old car whether true or not.
In my parents Village in France, everyone knows the mechanic and word of mouth in a small tight knit community is very powerful, we've lost too many of these types of mechanics in the UK.
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:28
What is it with the british and new cars - Roly93
We seem to have settled on talking about the French as a point in case, but no one has mentioned the fact that in the UK you can tell at a glance the age of a car by the registration plate, now made even worse by the bi-annual change. There are no other countries I can think of that do this on their cars, and I have always thought that this is deliberate on the part of our government to stimulate the UK motor trade, because after all there are loads of other ways a registration plate can be configured.
I think the Americans tend to keep cars longer also, as do the Germans I think.
From my own point of view, I tend to agree with someone else who said sell when the warranty runs out. I do a fair amount but not starship mileage in 3 years, so I have a slightly above average mileage but still very saleable car at the end of the time, which woorks economically well for me to change at 3 years.
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:38
What is it with the british and new cars - daveyjp
"There are no other countries I can think of that do this on their cars"

Ireland do.

Year of registration - County Code - sequential number of registration

The Mayor of Dublin always has the first registration of the New Year

This year it will be:

07-D-1
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Tue 22 May 2007 13:08
What is it with the british and new cars - Gromit {P}
"There are no other countries I can think of that do this on their cars"
Ireland do.
Year of registration - County Code - sequential number of registration


Indeed; each county runs its own sequence of registrations starting January 1st each year. A system introduced in 1987 with much encouragement from the Irish motor trade...

Tour bus operators were the unexpected casualties of the new system: American visitors didn't like the idea of travelling in "last year's" coach. So many operators opened offices in Northern Ireland and reregistered the buses there.
The Mayor of Dublin always has the first registration of the New Year
This year it will be: 07-D-1


The same applies for every mayor, though not all get a new car every year!
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:24
What is it with the british and new cars - Bill Payer
in the UK you can tell at
a glance the age of a car by the registration plate now made even worse
by the bi-annual change.

I reckon that if that system was done away then new car sales in the UK would take a *huge* hit. A 20-30% drop in sales would have a devasting effect on the car business in the UK.
Company cars are still a large part of the UK market, but even many companies would probably feel able to keep cars longer without the presure to display a recent registration plate.
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:37
What is it with the british and new cars - Roly93
I reckon that if that system was done away then new car sales in the
UK would take a *huge* hit. A 20-30% drop in sales would have a devasting
effect on the car business in the UK.

That is exactly my point, which brings us back to why people like to change their cars relatively often in the UK, (and Ireland as somebody else has pointed out).
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:57
What is it with the british and new cars - Bill Payer
That is exactly my point which brings us back to why people like to change
their cars relatively often in the UK

The depreciation thing has become self-perpetuating in the UK. I think that many people (as you suggested for yourself earlier) feel they want to get rid of the car while it's at least worth something - leave it another couple of years and all your money's gone.

I think that for many people, it's simply about keeping up with the Joneses.
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:14
What is it with the british and new cars - machika
>> That is exactly my point which brings us back to why people like to
change
>> their cars relatively often in the UK
The depreciation thing has become self-perpetuating in the UK. I think that many people (as
you suggested for yourself earlier) feel they want to get rid of the car while
it's at least worth something - leave it another couple of years and all your
money's gone.


That's where they are wrong though, isn't it? Most of the depreciation is in the first three to four years. Certainly, after 5 years, a car isn't going to depreciate at anything like the same rate. So, when they buy a new car they lose another big wad of money in the first three years.
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Tue 22 May 2007 11:50
What is it with the british and new cars - f2
Cars are indeed a microcosm of the british class system. How else do you explain badge snobbery, the often bewildering variety of trim levels, and the one-upmaship so prevalent in daily driving.

I have a friend who has owned a succession of nearly new E-Class estates that have cost more in repairs than the purchase prices of my cars in the same period. A few months ago he replaced the last (and most troublesome) one with...a new E Class. And yes he has had trouble with it already. In his opinion it's worth it because having a brand new "prestige" car shows that he has been successful in his business life.

The flip side is that he can't understand why I am happy to tool around in older cars without all the gadgets, and puttin up with the negative image that older cars have.

No criticism intended in this post - just an illustration of how the choice of car is often bound up in the self-image of the owner as much as in the practicalities of what the car is actually used for.
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:17
What is it with the british and new cars - jase1
The good thing about this is that the sensible types among us Brits can acquire much newer cars for a lot less money, and run them into the ground in French style.

I have a great deal of respect for the French people in a lot of ways. They're prepared to show solidarity for each other in a way we seem to have forgotten, and as said in this thread they have far fewer hangups about snobbery whilst at the same time achieving the sense of chic-ness (is that a word?) that we try so hard to achieve but fail miserably.
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:44
What is it with the british and new cars - tyro
One of the results of this is the strange British obsession with residuals.

If you are quite happy to throw money away, you don't worry about residuals. Quite logical.
But if you don't want to throw money away, you don't buy a new car, and so you don't worry about residuals.
Or else you buy a new car and keep it till it dies and is worth nothing, and again don't worry about residuals.

But for someone who is buying a new car to be concerned about residuals is just daft.
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:54
What is it with the british and new cars - mike hannon
Our family doctor (SW France) is in his 40s and is still driving a 2CV - the first car he ever owned! He does have an old Golf cabriolet as well though...
Certainly seems to be the case that the biggest, shiniest 4x4s you see in this part of the world - and there are many - are almost always on British plates.
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Tue 22 May 2007 13:03
What is it with the british and new cars - Brian Tryzers
Isn't the 4x4 the best example of all, Mike? You seldom see one in France with local plates, and the French makers don't make them, and that's because French buyers aren't fooled by the marketing waffle and know that they simply don't need one. I don't suppose Le Figaro's Jean Honnête gets many letters that say 'I live in a village and it sometimes rains, so I simply must have a 4x4'. There doesn't seem to be anywhere in France that a white Citroen Visa van can't get to.
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Tue 22 May 2007 19:01
What is it with the british and new cars - zm
'the French makers don't make them'

They're on their way this year!
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:47
What is it with the british and new cars - LHM
>>the sense of chic-ness (is that a word?) that
we try so hard to achieve but fail miserably.



The fact that we have to borrow the word 'chic' says a lot, I guess :-)
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:52
What is it with the british and new cars - Brian Tryzers
LOL, LHM. And the French had to borrow 'camping'.
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Tue 22 May 2007 13:03
What is it with the british and new cars - LHM
LOL LHM. And the French had to borrow 'camping'.


Indeed!

Can you imagine the Brits embracing anything similar to the Académie française? Thought not :-)
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:03
What is it with the british and new cars - Baskerville
LOL LHM. And the French had to borrow 'camping'.


Ssshhhh. Don't let Jeremy Clarkson hear you.
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Tue 22 May 2007 12:56
What is it with the british and new cars - ForumNeedsModerating
>>The fact that we have to borrow the word 'chic' says a lot, I guess :-)

Odder still though, that even with the well documented French obsession with having & enjoying their
time off - they never got around to inventing a word for weekend. (Fr. 'le weekend' )
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Tue 22 May 2007 13:57
What is it with the british and new cars - SpamCan61 {P}
Interestingly (?) enough I've just trawled the 'net for new car sales figures; in 2005 2,067,818 new cars were registered in France, compared with 2,439,717 in the UK. So whilst there is a noticeable difference in new cars per capita it isn't as big as observation suggests IMHO.
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Tue 22 May 2007 14:17
What is it with the british and new cars - Lud
Fr. for weekend is 'fin de semaine', three words instead of two run together or hyphenated. 'Le weekend' is obviously an attempt to be chic by using a foreign word... :o)
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:03
What is it with the british and new cars - CGNorwich
"In france it's barely the case, they only chuck them when the engine is dead! What is it with you brits and cars!!"

Lower level of new car purchase is mainly a reflection on the sorry state of the French economy and high levels of unemployment over there I would suggest
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:14
What is it with the british and new cars - Ed V
Ever looked around a French ski resort?

Snowy or not, the only 4 x 4s are Brits and the occasional German. There was one Subaru run by the local Council in Val D'Isere I think.

All the French cars are front-drive Clios and the like, including the delivery vans, which always seem to get up the valleys OK!
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Tue 22 May 2007 15:32
What is it with the british and new cars - Bill Payer
All the French cars are front-drive Clios and the like including the delivery vans which
always seem to get up the valleys OK!

With winter tyres though..

I only know 2 French people, and by amazing co-incidence they both drive Discovery 3's!
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:20
What is it with the british and new cars - jc2
Unlike most other countries,something like 60 to 80% of new cars are company owned in some form or another-this means UK cars tend to be replaced at 2 to 3 yr. intervals and also higher trim levels are ordered than normal in other countries.
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:56
What is it with the british and new cars - SpamCan61 {P}
>>Unlike most other countries,something like 60 to 80% of new cars are company owned in some form or another

So returning to the new car figures for 2005 posted up thread, there's a good chance that the number of private new car buyers in France is actually higher than the UK, which doesn't fit the hypothesis that the French economy is carp so they don't buy many new cars.
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:26
What is it with the british and new cars - whoopwhoop
As said above, it has more to do with the dire state of the French economy versus the relatively high level of wealth enjoyed in the UK than anything else...>> >> All the French cars are front-drive Clios and the like including the delivery vans
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Tue 22 May 2007 16:41
What is it with the british and new cars - movilogo
Repair cost of cars - is it cheaper in continent compared to UK?

I feel modern cars are actually less reliable than older cars. Such cars only had mechanical parts that could go wrong.

Where as modern cars have electronics which is the biggest trouble of ownership - electronics tend to go wrong more often than the mechanical parts.

With the so called ECU thing, Endurablility Crisis Unit
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Tue 22 May 2007 17:25
What is it with the british and new cars - Baskerville
electronics
tend to go wrong more often than the mechanical parts.


Do they though? I'm not convinced. I remember back in the 1970s that cars had to be push-started or jump started very regularly. It was common on winter mornings to hear that sickening churning noise as yet another basic, reliable, don't-build-'em-like-they-used-to, old-style engine refused to go. The car I learned to drive in, a mid-1980s Metro, performed significantly better in the few weeks after a service than it did when service time was coming up--things just went out of whack after a while--not so these days.

However, when electronic parts go wrong they tend to fail completely and that can mean the car just stops working for no apparent reason. Mechanical parts just get a bit worn or seize up a bit but apart from rubber drive belts they rarely fail completely without warning. Electronics are very, very reliable, but when they die they die but good.
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Tue 22 May 2007 17:46
What is it with the british and new cars - Lud
You got it Baskerville. Old-fashioned cars that won't start in cold weather are nearly always simply under-maintained. Keeping them in proper tune is usually quite easy, but it's surprising how few garages really bothered to do it properly.

Electronics are generally reliable, but subject to sudden catastrophic failure. And it must be said that in the quest for economy and low emissions, engines have become a bit complicated in this area and subject quite often to very minor but irritating faults.

And the fact that spark plugs last four times as long with electronic ignition misleads some people into thinking they are now everlasting. They aren't.
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Tue 22 May 2007 18:20
What is it with the british and new cars - Number_Cruncher
When you consider the number of cars on the road *and* the mileage these cars are doing, the reliability is amazing. If reliability had not moved on in leaps and bounds, garages would be overflowing with work. Contact breakers? carburettors? tappets? Trunions? Grease Nipples? Manually adjusted brakes? No, I'm glad to be rid of all of them.

In most cases, unless there's a silly underlying design fault, most ECU's last the life of the car, and work totally reliably. In fact, of the ECUs that are "diagnosed" and replaced, I wold be surprised if more than 50% of them are actually faulty.

Most faults with these systems are basic wiring faults, once found, these typically cost pennies to fix. The problem here is that finding the fault takes equipment, it takes information, it takes brains, and it takes patience. These pre-requisistes rarely come together in a typical workshop. It isn't the fault of the systems that our garages can't provide the means to mend them; i.e, most retail motor industry management would need the fog lights on to see beyond the end of their nose.

Many electronic systems can continue to function in a basic way even after a partial failure of the system, in some kind of "limp-home" mode. Multiplexed wiring systems can even swap the function of lighting circuits to avoid the lack of a signal under some fault conditions.

-------------------------

Back to the original question.

I think we have all been taken in. We are the marketeer's dream. We are rich enough to not only want to get from A to B, but also to show off while we are doing it. It is right that we should pay through the nose for this silliness.

I think it was Aprilia who posted along the lines of knowing of people with a luxury car on the drive and no food in the fridge. How can our priorities have got so upside down? It's a piece of tin - it isn't life!, it will never smile back at you!

Number_Cruncher


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Tue 22 May 2007 17:35
What is it with the british and new cars - jase1
The fundamentals of cars have never been more reliable.

It's the multitude of optional extras people for some reason insist on that causes the difficulties.

I think that the reason why Japanese and Korean cars don't seem to go wrong as often as the rest is precisely because the cars aren't overloaded with unnecessary electrical gadgets -- ironic given these two countries' prowess when it comes to making consumer gadgets.

I don't need electronic tyre pressure gauges, silly keycards that need to be kept separate from the rest of the keys, digital speedometers, stupid stereo systems that are linked into the ECU etc etc. I just want a comfortable, reliable car that's nice to drive and has the minimum of electrics necessary for comfort's sake -- ie the typical electric packs you got on the average Astra-sized car 10 years ago (electric windows, Central Locking, PAS, ABS, electric mirrors).

Isn't it the case that the French tend not to bother with the silly toys, instead buying cars that we'd consider "poverty-spec"?
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Tue 22 May 2007 18:43
What is it with the british and new cars - boxsterboy
Isn't it the case that the French tend not to bother with the silly toys
instead buying cars that we'd consider "poverty-spec"?


Crumbs, yes. You buy Clios, 207s, C3s etc. over there without even back seats, as standard!
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Tue 22 May 2007 20:21
What is it with the british and new cars - OldSkoOL
I find it amusing how so many people always mention how much money you loose in the first 5 years. Ok you loose the majority within that period - you can minimize the loss by buying slightly used or ex-demo.

My main point here is - People save in order to buy something special, in some cases people save to buy a new car. If you dont spend your savings on new cars you end up spending your savings on, plasmas, computers, hifi's, cameras, phones, holidays, clothes etc etc - all things that a practically worthless when you have had enough of them and want to buy a newer model.

That money drains away 1 way or another, for example, a new model would cost you 18k to buy new, you say no and wait a year for an ex-demo / 2hnd for 13k and think wahooo i've saved a load of cash. You'll still loose 6k over 4 years and you'll spend the money you saved elsewhere in excitement :) New cars if bought to minimize loss provide 3 years piece of mind, something new, safe and efficient and really just another luxury to satisfy ourselves.




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Tue 22 May 2007 22:52
What is it with the british and new cars - nb857
It's very easy to get swept along with the lastest plate thing. Why wouldn't anyone want a new car? They're faster, comfy, have more toys and your almost guaranteed more sex right.

When I bought my current car I started saving for it's replacement. Now I have enough to change it for a late used model, but why change? every time I fill my old one up with fuel I want to drive to Downing Street with a big stick. Every time I drive past a speed camera I want to run a do-gooder over. So what's the point in me spending a load of cash on a newer car that won't do anything any better than the one I've got.

What I want is to buy some new number plates, I'm not changing numbers, but I want "paid for" in very small letters on the bottom of the plate. If my premium bonds irrupted into a tourant of finacial security, I'd be reluctant to part with the 98 model. She's gives good service and it would be nice to have £1,000,000 in the bank and a car worth £1,700 on the drive...
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Wed 23 May 2007 00:02
What is it with the british and new cars - Lud
It's very easy to get swept along with the lastest plate thing. Why wouldn't anyone
want a new car? They're faster comfy have more toys and your almost guaranteed more
sex right.


New, OK. The latest? not necessarily. Toys schmoys. sex schmex. What utter carp.
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Wed 23 May 2007 11:13
What is it with the british and new cars - machika
That money drains away 1 way or another for example a new model would cost
you 18k to buy new you say no and wait a year for an ex-demo
/ 2hnd for 13k and think wahooo i've saved a load of cash. You'll still
loose 6k over 4 years and you'll spend the money you saved elsewhere in excitement
:) New cars if bought to minimize loss provide 3 years piece of mind something
new safe and efficient and really just another luxury to satisfy ourselves.

>>

So, having a new car stops people spending money they haven't got (having spent all of their spare cash on the car)? With the record levels of debt in this country, I tend to think it doesn't quite work like that.
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Tue 22 May 2007 23:41
What is it with the british and new cars - J Bonington Jagworth
"stupid stereo systems that are linked into the ECU"

Funny you should say that. A colleague got stuck on one of our car ferries last week when she borrowed her husband's BMW and started playing with the radio during the crossing. He'd been mucking about with the battery (to prepare the car for the journey, of course) and it needed its code resetting. Because she didn't know it, the radio told the ECU its worst suspicions and the car refused to start, which was somewhat inconvenient as they were parked by the bow doors. German efficiency - hah!
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Wed 23 May 2007 11:16
What is it with the british and new cars - machika
As said above it has more to do with the dire state of the French
economy versus the relatively high level of wealth enjoyed in the UK than anything else


>>

Which is why we have a higher level of debt than any country in Europe, I suppose? We can afford it.
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Wed 23 May 2007 09:16
What is it with the british and new cars - mare
All the French cars are front-drive Clios and the like including the delivery vans which
always seem to get up the valleys OK!


Chamonix in February - my ski instructer had a Nissan Pathfinder, her mate an Espace Quadra, and the local plod has an old Land Rover.

Postman had a Clio van though.
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Wed 23 May 2007 09:00
What is it with the british and new cars - L'escargot
What is it with you (presumably) non-Brits not doing us the courtesy of spelling Brits and British with a capital B?
--
L\'escargot.
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Wed 23 May 2007 11:18
What is it with the british and new cars - mike hannon
Can somebody put a percentage figure on the statement in the post above that, I think, translates as 'you are almost guaranteed more sex, right?'
This could be the key to me finally being tempted into buying a 21st century car...
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Wed 23 May 2007 15:28
What is it with the british and new cars - peterb
It's to do with company cars.

Company cars are more common in the UK than most other countries and are replaced after 3-4 years.

Even where companies (or individuals) have moved away from company cars many do personal leasing (PCP) which again often runs to a 3-4 year cycle.
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Wed 23 May 2007 15:35
What is it with the british and new cars - Sofa Spud
I'm British and take a sort of pride in the fact that both my cars are now 13 years old and one is coming up to 170,000 miles. I could afford to buy a new car but when the time comes to replace the oldies ones I'll go secondhand again, probably.

Part of the reason I'm hanging on to my old Passat TDI, though, is that I want to replace it with either a Mk2 VW Sharan or a Touran and I'm waiting for used prices to drop lower!



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Wed 23 May 2007 16:12
What is it with the british and new cars - Ed V
Go for a VW Phaeton/Bentley!
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Wed 23 May 2007 16:34
What is it with the british and new cars - Altea Ego
what is it with the constant whining whinging and snipes at people who buy, lease or run brand new cars. All this talk about stupidity, snobbishness, class society is nothing less than envy. How other people spend thier money has got nothing to do with you.

People who buy second hand cars, should go down on bended knee, and worship the ground that new car buyers drive upon, because if they didnt your second hand sheds would be priced way out of your price range.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Wed 23 May 2007 17:02
What is it with the british and new cars - Number_Cruncher
is nothing less than envy.


Not from me. Having grown up in a workshop environment, I see cars as bits of metal, nothing more. Of all the things there to go into debt for, a car doesn't even get close to making my list. I see lots of people saddled with persoanl debt running around in new(ish) cars. Old bangers as I knew them as a kid are now a fairly rare sight.

Perhaps I'm out of step with this debt culture - I'm only just coming round to the idea that it's OK to have a mortgage!

On the other hand, it's certainly not for me to get involved in how others spend their money, however foolish I might consider the action. I know how hard I have needed to work to get my money, and it isn't going to go to some glass and chrome car dealership!

Number_Cruncher
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Wed 23 May 2007 17:12
What is it with the british and new cars - Altea Ego
Perhaps I'm out of step with this debt culture - I'm only just coming round to the idea that it's OK to have a mortgage!


now that is a nub of the question. For example, I, like most of my compatriots in the southeast, am asset rich, but cash poor. I have an estimated future asset portfolio (investments, house if cashed in, potential legacy, comuted pension, of somewhere in between 500k to 700k pounds million pounds.

My debts however are in the region of 150k pounds. I cant take the 5-700k pounds with me to the grave, and as my debt/asset ratio is so low I can always be lent money at good rates of interest.

so why not add a new car to my debts? by if you like spending my assets.


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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Wed 23 May 2007 17:25
What is it with the british and new cars - Xileno {P}
"I cant take the 5-700k pounds with me to the grave"

Indeed not, much to Gordon Brown's satisfaction.
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Wed 23 May 2007 17:48
What is it with the british and new cars - Number_Cruncher
>>so why not add a new car to my debts?

Yes, perhaps you are in a good position to do this - probably better than most who wander into debt almost blindfolded - I guess that a new car on the drive wouldn't mean an empty larder for the family!

However, the difference between the list of assets which you give and a car is that they all will tend to appreciate in value, rather than rot away on your drive. I have heard it said that it is inadvisable to borrow to finance investment, so, to borrow to fund something that is just going to depreciate seems more extreme still.

Perhaps my anti-debt attitude is extreme - for me what would be a silly decision might be the embodiement of prudence for you in your situation. For example, for me, in an asset rich and cash poor situation, I would probably want to sell something off rather than take on debt.

Number_Cruncher


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Wed 23 May 2007 18:22
What is it with the british and new cars - Bill Payer
I have heard it said that it is inadvisable to borrow to finance investment
so to borrow to fund something that is just going to depreciate seems more extreme
still.

My understanding is that the theory is you should borrow to fund appreciating assets and depreciating assets should be leased (or rented).
Presumeably that's why many company cars are leased? PCP does the effectively the same thing for private motorists.
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Wed 23 May 2007 21:36
What is it with the british and new cars - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
I have heard it said that it is inadvisable to borrow to finance investment
so to borrow to fund something that is just going to depreciate seems more extreme
still.

I view the PCP payments on my car as a pure lease. In fact I don't expect to ever realise any value from any car I own, whether the car is bought on HP/PCP or even cash, it is all (including the deposit) viewed as money down the drain. The only aims, of course, are to keep repayments sensible and interest rates to the bare minimum.

Incidentally, in a strong-ish time for global stock markets, the money that could have bought my car outright is instead invested in various funds. It has grown by more than double the cost of the monthly payments so far. So currently, investing the money has leased me the car for free and left a significant profit.
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Fri 25 May 2007 20:26
What is it with the british and new cars - machika
People who buy second hand cars should go down on bended knee and worship the
ground that new car buyers drive upon because if they didnt your second hand sheds
would be priced way out of your price range.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >


No whining, I just wouldn't buy new again. No bended knee either but thank you very much all the same.
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Wed 23 May 2007 16:42
What is it with the british and new cars - 007
Looking at this subject from a different angle.....from my observations (at least, around where I live) it appears that higher cost / newer cars such as convertibles, sports, 4 x 4s etc, more often seem to be driven by young-ish ladies. As a car comes towards me, I sometimes have a guess as to whether the driver will be female....and about 7-8 times out of 10 I am right!

So....what is it with lady drivers and flash cars?
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Wed 23 May 2007 16:46
What is it with the british and new cars - Brian Tryzers
Well...secondhand cars are favoured by types who hang about on motoring forums and reckon they're smarter than the average bear and don't mind doing without a new-car warranty for the pleasure of beating the system. And these types are almost uniformly male. Which leaves...
}:---)
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Wed 23 May 2007 17:29
What is it with the british and new cars - stevied
Mmmm, well we get told that if us blokes do it, it is some sort of extension.... so..... draw your own conclusions.

: )
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Wed 23 May 2007 16:59
What is it with the british and new cars - stevied
Would that be the Phaeton that, when fitted with the engine and gearbox in Bentley tune shredded much of it's drivetrain due to the vast increase in power and torque?

Is it Henry, the janitor? Could be....
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Wed 23 May 2007 22:44
What is it with the british and new cars - Micky
It's the difference between a means to get from A to B and something nice to polish on the drive, and visit the tip, and Tescos. I despise those who lust after new cars above all else, they are inevitably shallow with no redeeming personality traits whatsoever. But my transport philosophy relies upon them, but please get out of my way when some degree of machine control is required along interesting roads.
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Thu 24 May 2007 23:01
What is it with the british and new cars - ukbeefy
I think alot of people still lay store by "what car do you drive?" as an assessment of someone's "success" - I certainly found not having owned a car for 15 years that in some social situations like weddings and places where you don't know people really well eg business lunches that other guys and sometimes the women will steer a conversation towards cars as a means to work out "where you are" in their view of the world. Generally they are a bit stumped when you don't enter into their little game.

I am frankly baffled how many people in "ordinary" jobs (the world is not full of investment bankers surely) go into a dealership and walk out in a £15-20k car especially those in their 20s. Then 2-3 years later they are out again spending another £8-10K out of their taxed pocket. Are they not spending money on holidays or mortgages?

I know my Dad and other parts of my family still think along the lines of "so and so got their new Lexus/Discovery last week." as effectively intra family bragging rights. My Dad once said to me outright that it wasn't right that I was a grown man with a proper job and no car to show for it. His experience of buying his first car for cash and new was a major landmark. Since then he has always bought new albeit kept them for 7-10 years. I think he views it the same as "why buy a semi if you can get a detached" snobbery.
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Fri 25 May 2007 13:19
What is it with the british and new cars - nick
>>I think he views it the same as "why buy a semi if you can get a detached" snobbery.
I'd rather have a detached then a semi. Who wouldn't? No neighbours' noises through the walls.
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Fri 25 May 2007 22:59
What is it with the british and new cars - boxsterboy
>>I think he views it the same as "why buy a semi if you can
get a detached" snobbery.
I'd rather have a detached then a semi. Who wouldn't? No neighbours' noises through the
walls.


Well yes, obviously. But it would have to be a second hand detached house!
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Fri 25 May 2007 14:55
What is it with the british and new cars - bubblegum
It's called keeping up with the Joneses doesn't matter at what cost the need to compete against each other is on the increase
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Fri 25 May 2007 16:00
What is it with the british and new cars - Altea Ego
It's called keeping up with the Joneses


No its not. There is something unique about having a new car. Its like a new suit. You feel smart, special, its a personal treat.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Fri 25 May 2007 18:32
What is it with the british and new cars - nick
Indeed TVM, otherwise we'd all be dressed by Oxfam. Keep you warm the same, so why buy new? Or not.
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Fri 25 May 2007 20:56
What is it with the british and new cars - Altea Ego
but you look like you are man at oxfam.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Fri 25 May 2007 21:12
What is it with the british and new cars - P3t3r
>> It's called keeping up with the Joneses
No its not. There is something unique about having a new car. Its like a
new suit. You feel smart special its a personal treat.


Nothing wrong with buying new, but why get rid of it when it's just 3 years old? If you look after a car it will (usually) still look like new when it's 3 years old. I think a lot of the people who buy new every 3 years don't do it because it's new, I think it's because it has the latest reg. A lot of them don't look after their cars and probably don't really care whether it's new or not.
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Fri 25 May 2007 21:34
What is it with the british and new cars - Micky
£5k buys you a new Kia of some description ..... probably ...... why should I know? Or even care. £5k can also buy you - for example - a Merc 190 with Cosworth power.

So why buy the Kia? Peace of mind with the warranty? Probably. Better mpg? Perhaps. A new registration? Absolutely. But a driving experience? Errrr.......
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Fri 25 May 2007 21:47
What is it with the british and new cars - paulb {P}
But a driving experience? Errrr.......


Sadly, a concept alien to many. I wouldn't bother with any of the economy-priced Far Eastern stuff - I'm sure it does the job perfectly adequately but only adequately. People slag Mondeos for being ubiquitous but at least they are a good drive (better than some supposedly "warm" hatches hat I have owned or driven), even if the TDCi models have certain well-discussed fragilities.

Having said that, cheap to buy new need not equal rubbish to drive - Mrs B's Panda was cheap as chips (0% finance - and why not?) but is a surprisingly entertaining drive, considering it is a small car with only 70 bhp. Well screwed together, too - we picked it up on 1 August last and haven't needed to trouble the garage since.
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Fri 25 May 2007 22:00
What is it with the british and new cars - Micky
">Sadly, a concept alien to many.<"

It's a lost cause, but there we are. My spirits were raised when I started to read your missive, but then you attempted to defend the choice of a Panda with 70 bhp when there is a Panda available with 100bhp.

I can recall trying to make good progress in the company of a 4x4 Panda along some twisty country roads at sub-zero temperatures many years ago, I enjoyed 180ish bhp in rather spritely SD1, the Panda driver must have been trashing along with 50 horses or less(?), I pulled over and waved her through because I am a considerate driver.
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Fri 25 May 2007 22:15
What is it with the british and new cars - paulb {P}
...but then you attempted to defend the choice of a Panda
with 70 bhp when there is a Panda available with 100bhp.


I would defend it thus:

a) 106 lbs ft at 1,500 rpm and low kerb weight work better than I had imagined
b) Manages to be fun whilst fitting into the 35 quid tax bracket
c) 100HP wasn't available when we were looking...
d) ...but that didn't matter, because my mother bought a 100HP last December and I borrow it occasionally, to, um, ensure that the injectors are kept clean, ahem, and that the 6-speed box is still slick, um, and that, er, the steering still works - yes, that's it.....

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Fri 25 May 2007 22:23
What is it with the british and new cars - Micky
1500 rpm? Is that the idling speed? Why would anyone with any understanding of the delights of small engines have any interest in what happens at 1500 rpm? What happens at 7000 rpm? That's much more intriguing.

">Manages to be fun whilst fitting into the 35 quid tax bracket<"

Skinflint.

Is the 100bhp Panda as good as it might just possibly be? BTW, I applaud your decision to "check" your mother's Panda at regular intervals.

"To the redline and beyond" :-)
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Fri 25 May 2007 22:51
What is it with the british and new cars - paulb {P}
Ah, no. I meant Mrs B's Panda, which is of the "heavy oil" persuasion. Yes, 1,500 rpm is fairly meaningless; however, a small but very enthusiastic turbo starts doing things at that engine speed. Sadly 5,000 rpm is about as far as it goes, although the cheapskates have put in the same instrument pack as in the petrol and it does actually read up to 7,000. Daft.
Skinflint.


Weeeelll, not so much that, as having a healthy aversion to enriching HM Treasury more than is absolutely necessary.
Is the 100bhp Panda as good as it might just possibly be?


I should say so. I can fault it on two things only- the ride is firm to the point of being jiggly on poor urban surfaces (45-aspect tyres do not help), and a 35-litre tank means that journeys of any length will feature at least one stop for fuel. But that is all. Fiat's FIRE 1.4 16v is a cracking little motor and very well suited a) to being tuned to 100 bhp and b) to the close-ratio 6-speed fitted to it in the Panda, which suits its power and torque delivery perfectly.

Let no-one say I am anything other than a dutiful son...
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Fri 25 May 2007 23:19
What is it with the british and new cars - Micky
Oh, I see. It's one of those deseail things. Never mind.

The 100bhp Panda sounds much more interesting, jiggly tyres can be forgiven. Erm, I am intrigued at the thought of a mature mother who drives a 100bhp Panda on wheels with the merest hint of rubber. No, wait, this caused lots of problems last time over on the "other" forum.
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Sat 26 May 2007 02:46
What is it with the british and new cars - Blue {P}
goes although the cheapskates have put in the same instrument pack as in the petrol
and it does actually read up to 7 000. Daft.


You sure that's not a mis-build? We got that all the time at Ford, cars turning up with the wrong equipment, badges etc. It might need fixing under warranty!

Blue
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Mon 28 May 2007 21:49
What is it with the british and new cars - paulb {P}
You sure that's not a mis-build?


Don't think so, no - glow plug lights and so on all work correctly. Seems to be a feature of diesel-engined small FIATs - my father's Grande Punto is the same. They just seem to stick in an instrument pack with a rev counter that reads up to 7k, with no red line on it. Handbook doesn't refer to different ones, either.
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Sat 26 May 2007 12:39
What is it with the british and new cars - nick
I think a lot of the people who buy new
every 3 years don't do it because it's new I think it's because it has
the latest reg. A lot of them don't look after their cars and probably don't
really care whether it's new or not.


Like many people I'll be changing my car at 2.5 to 3 years old because:

It'll be nearly out of warranty and although it is a reliable marque I like not having to think about repair bills or MOTs;
I'll fancy a change by then;
I can afford it (ie no finance).

I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks about what reg or model I drive. I buy a car because I like it and will enjoy driving it. I intend to buy pre-reg or up to one year old so saving a bit of the hit in depreciation.
I also find it hard to believe that anyone who pays for a new car out of their own money won't look after it.

There seem to be a lot of green eyes around. ;-)
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Sat 26 May 2007 12:59
What is it with the british and new cars - GregSwain
I buy a car with view to using it until it goes bang because....

It's out of warranty, so DIY servicing is possible and saves me a fortune. (£50 for FULL service including coolant renewal).
Buying a reliable marque with average mileage and full service history usually results in a car that doesn't break down.
I also don't give a toss about what people think of my car, hence keeping it long-term rather than keeping up with the Joneses.
MOTs only cost £30-odd quid and take an hour per year. If the car's been correctly maintained it should pass.

To me a car is like a fridge. You buy it, set it to work, expect it to perform reliably, and when it finally stops working it goes to the scrapyard. It's not a person, it doesn't have a personality. It's merely a piece of metal that's been designed to fulfil a given role. I certainly wouldn't replace my fridge every 3 years just because there's a new model out which might be better. But then again, the Joneses don't see my fridge and I don't see theirs.

Who said playing devil's advocate was boring! ;-)
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Sat 26 May 2007 13:57
What is it with the british and new cars - nick
To me, it isn't like a fridge. It's a hobby too. I love cars and there are so many cars but so little time. I enjoy driving and will happily go for a drive just for the hell of it. It helps that I live in a part of the country with relatively little traffic and great roads. I can afford to indulge my hobby so why not? I also enjoy roquefort when I could eat Danish blue and a single malt instead of a blend.
Each to their own and vive le difference.
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Sat 26 May 2007 22:00
What is it with the british and new cars - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
To me a car is like a fridge.

I spend a couple of hours a day driving my car, which makes it vastly more important than my fridge. The fridge just keeps stuff cold, so is comparable to the climate control in the car. If I spent 2 hours a day sat in my fridge, I would probably be tempted to upgrade it for a better, more comfortable model.
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Sat 26 May 2007 22:56
What is it with the british and new cars - GregSwain
I spend a couple of hours a day driving my car which makes it vastly
more important than my fridge.


I think you missed my point slightly, but nevermind. I was asserting that a car is just an appliance when all's said and done. You get in, switch it on, use it, and turn it off again. Why upgrade it every 3 years when it still works perfectly well?
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Sat 26 May 2007 23:10
What is it with the british and new cars - jase1
I think you missed my point slightly but nevermind. I was asserting that a car
is just an appliance when all's said and done. You get in switch it on
use it and turn it off again. Why upgrade it every 3 years when it
still works perfectly well?


I guess it's the same reason I change my TV to the latest and greatest long before its time, or buy the latest games system when a ZX Spectrum still works perfectly well. It's the latest thrill.

I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever -- it's when people start trying to justify their purchase by saying they're "minimising depreciation" by selling the car "while it's still worth something", or "if I keep it over 3 years it'll become unreliable" that my eyes glaze over. Why can't people be honest -- they want a new car because they like the feel of a new car. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
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Sat 26 May 2007 23:22
What is it with the british and new cars - sony
I must say I have become British when it comes to cars. If I'm totally honest, yes I do get rid of a car every 2 years because:
a)I have got bored of the car after 2 years
b) i would like to avoid keeping a car after it's 3rd birthday. It's just a hassle after this
c) I love the smell of a new car, just can't explain it, it's got a feel good factor.

I don't care what people say, getting in an old banger is boring. Whats the point of an old, rusty, musty smelling car.
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Sat 26 May 2007 23:42
What is it with the british and new cars - jase1
Some of the mustiest-smelling cars I've been in have been under 3 years old -- owned by people with young sprogs.

Kiddies make cars smell more than age ever will. If it isn't burying crisps in the seats and allowing them to rot, it's barfing on the rear carpet and then not bothering to get it valeted straight away.

That, and cigarette smoke.
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Sat 26 May 2007 23:33
What is it with the british and new cars - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
I think you missed my point slightly but nevermind.

I understood your point, I was just being slightly tongue-in-cheek ;-)
I was asserting that a car
is just an appliance when all's said and done. You get in switch it on
use it and turn it off again. Why upgrade it every 3 years when it
still works perfectly well?

Understood. But as I say, the car forms a significant part of my daily life - so an increase in features or comfort is always welcome, plus there is simply boredom. Sometimes it's nice to replace something just because you want something new.
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Sun 27 May 2007 11:38
What is it with the british and new cars - Dan J
It is a situation that is endemic in this country sony...

The main group of people who benefit from it are not even the manufacturers, it's the finance companies who have a queue of people who are prepared to lose significant money changing their car way before they were ever likely to be able to pay it off.

But you can't blame them... It's our mentality as a nation (I'm generalising here, it doesn't apply to everyone but it does to many). We want to show everyone just how successful we are - we can afford a new car every couple of years and more importantly a better one that you've got. Some of the comments elsewhere in this thread are right - in many other countries (particularly European), the car is a method of transport only. This is why you'll often see older cars being maintained in places like France and why someone who wants luxury has a Mercedes E-class in Germany but it has solid paint and wheel trims - it was about the comfort on the inside.

It makes me laugh when I read HJ's Telegraph column each week - letter after letter of "I must/need to change/upgrade to a bigger/different car etc etc". Actually no - if you had a manual car and lost one of your legs recently, then you *need* an automatic. And maybe a better ski instructor. But otherwise no. In virtually all cases actually you could live with what you've got.

It's too easy and tempting to get credit in this country. And too many people are living in a cycle where they owe a small fortune to a credit company but as long as they monthly payments are just about affordable then that is all that matters to them - providing that flashy car is on the driveway...

Case point at my local independent BMW/Mercedes specialist - a 53 plate BMW X5 parked out the front. Reason it was there is that the owner could barely keep up the repayments and certainly couldn't afford to have it serviced. It had reached late 30s on the odometer and the autobox (which requires fluid changes) had given up. The garage owner had said he hadn't heard from the owner since and wasn't even going to contemplate a repair until he'd seen some green. He's seeing that kind of thing happening frequently these days.

And for anyone with any environmental concern, actually the best thing you can do is run your current car into the ground. The manufacturers (who are desperate to keep sales figures up and not have to create further redundancies) don't like to point out that the sub 120g/km car you've just bought created 40% of it's lifetime CO2 footprint during manufacture.

I've changed my cars frequently in the past and lost a fortune. I eventually came round to the idea that personally I'd rather spend the money on holidays, eating out, on my family - i.e. enjoying *myself* rather than feeling smug about what the neighbours must be thinking about the new car sat on the driveway.

But hey, it's a personal choice guys... :-)
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