Hi all,
New to the forum - apologies if I spare the introductions for now. I have a 2001 Focus 1.6 with 90k on the clock - got it just over a year ago with 79k. Price was possibly a bit on the steep side, but time was short and I got £250 for my worthless old VW Polo and a year's warranty.
Anyway, at Christmas I had the car serviced and the cambelt done at my local Ford garage. To cut a long story short, the new tensioner failed and they ended up replacing all the exhaust valves along with a few other bits and bobs. So far so good, car was running fine when I got it back.
Since Christmas, it's used 4.5 litres of oil - it would seem the piston rings are shot. Oil consumption didn't seem to be a problem beforehand, but there's no sign of damage to the pistons themselves. The car is currently in the garage with the head off - I've seen it myself, there's a lot of movement on the pistons.
I have been quoted £1500 (or, in other terms, half the value of the car on a good day) for a replacement 'short block' engine, including fitting and VAT by Ford, and a bit less (£1k-£1200) by an independent specialist (using a brand new Ford block). Apparently piston ring renewal is not an option.
My questions are as follows:
1. Is this a common occurence on this engine?
2. Is the price I've been quoted decent?
3. Would I be mad to spend that much on the car given what it's worth?
4. Is it worth considering a 2nd hand engine? Any ideas how much that would cost?
5. Would I be as well to trade-in/flog/scrap the car and get something different?
Really I'm looking for the cheapest overall solution, but don't want to throw money at something that won't last. The guy I spoke to at the independent said a 2nd-hand engine was more trouble than it was worth and would cost the best part of a new engine in the end.
The warranty company don't count it as a mechanical breakdown, so they won't pay.
Thanks for any advice,
Niall
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There's actually very little you can do with the bottom ends on these Ford/Yamaha units when they need major work. Ford don't even supply torque settings for the main bearing caps because they basically cannot be refitted accurately once disturbed. The only satisfactory option is a replacement engine. That said, I know of several with over 100k that still work perfectly. They seem pretty tough under normal circumstances.
£1500 will almost certainly be for a "short" engine which is basically block, pistons, rods and crank. The cylinder head and all ancillaries will be swapped over from your current engine. It will solve the problem just fine, but on a car of this value, I would be looking for a good secondhand unit. I can't imagine a low-ish mileage unit with a 30-90 day guarantee for around the £350 mark will be too hard to come by considering this engine was also used in the Fiesta and Puma. Don't go for a 1.6 Mondeo engine by the way - they're completely different!
That said, I would also be taking legal advice on whether you have a case against the Ford dealer considering your problems only started after you had the timing belt tensioner fail. You would probably need to get the engine independently inspected to ascertain why it's burning so much oil. If it's damage from the belt failure, any half competent engineer will be able to spot it.
Cheers
DP
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So it started burning oil after a cam belt failure. I can't see that bending a few flimsy valves would harm the pistons. Unless something catastrophic happened with the head off [an abrasive entered the bores etc.] then the most likely cause of sudden oil consumption would be valve guide damage.
Were the new valves the correct stem size? They are available in different over-sizes on many engines and it's easy to be caught out.
These engines aren't known for early wear; be careful that you don't end up spending a lot of money and still have the same problem.
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One explanation for an engine burning oil after a valve/piston collision is that the top of the piston suffers impaction damage at the edge, which causes the top ring (and sometimes also the lower ones) to stick in its groove. I had to arbitrate in just such a case as this - only the engine in question was bigger than the OP's entire vehicle.
In this instance, a good second hand engine is the way out.
659.
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One explanation for an engine burning oil after a valve/piston collision is that the top of the piston suffers impaction damage at the edge, which causes the top ring (and sometimes also the lower ones) to stick in its groove.
I have in the past carefully relieved the groove when the lands have been deformed, with success, much to my surprise.
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659
Yes; in the case of engines with bore-axis aligned valves, with tree-trunk like stems; that can and does, happen.
However this is a 16 valve, with tiny, thin-stemmed, valves inclined at a steep angle; they impact the piston very near the centre of it's crown and in the base of fairly stable recessed pockets. It's virtually unknown for valves to damage pistons on 16 valve engines - and failed belts are not a rare occurrence.
I agree that, as the root cause of this oil consumption is uncertain; then a good secondhand engine is the best idea.
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As a guide I paid £650 all in to have a second hand 1.8TD engine fitted to a Mondeo a few years back. This was the highest I was quoted for second hand locally but included 3 month warranty, engine was only on 50k and was all done thru a reputable local scrap dealer. Don't quote me on this but I believe my engine was harder to find and a bigger fitting job than yours. Fortunately for you there must be hundreds of written off Focus' about with no engine damage.
Gutted for you losing it at 90k, the 1.8 petrol in my Mondeo's done 94k, quiet as a mouse, and my father MKI Mondeo with the 1.8 petrol had 177k on it when he traded it in some years back, dying for some spark plugs but sweet as a nut, despite having had to put up with the cruelty of me learning to drive in it! Let us know if you find a bona fide explanation, I'm sure it's more than bad luck.
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Since Christmas, it's used 4.5 litres of oil - it would seem the piston rings are shot. Oil consumption didn't seem to be a problem beforehand, but there's no sign of damage to the pistons themselves. The car is currently in the garage with the head off - I've seen it myself, there's a lot of movement on the pistons.
If there really is no damage to the pistons, then oil won't suddenly be getting past them. 4.5L since Christmas is a lot. Has the thing been blowing out a lot of oily exhaust? What's performance and compression like?
Also, what does "a lot of movement on the pistons" mean - thay are supposed to go up and down ;)
Apparently piston ring renewal is not an option.
If they need it, why can't they be replaced, I wonder (this is a general question and not specific to this enquiry)?
4. Is it worth considering a 2nd hand engine? Any ideas how much that would cost?
tinyurl.com/2d6toa
(pointer to: search.ebay.co.uk/search/search.dll?MfcISAPIComman...=
0&from=R41&query=focus+1.6+engine&category0=)
or try www.1stchoice.co.uk/
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4.5 litres since xmas
what mileage though?
my old marina van used to use that in 100 miles
had to see all the mates in their garages for old oil for the thing rather than let them burn it in their salamanders
:-O
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Trying to answer various questions in this post, hope it's not too confused/confusing!
The movement is front to back, suggesting worn rings unless I am mistaken (aka 'piston slap'?). I was given compression readings of '105', '100', '50', '100' by the garage - units unknown.
The exhaust has been very sooty, rather than oily. I've done about 2400 miles since Christmas, mostly of the motorway variety.
On the Zetec-S/SE (Sigma) engine, as someone else has mentioned, bottom-end work is basically a no-go because of how the engine is put together. Ford's solution for this problem is new block, and both the garage and the independent place say they've seen this problem quite a few times before.
I've had a look on eBay before, in fact recently a complete new short engine (i.e. with head as well) went for £840.
I've put a couple of photos I took this morning online - unfortunately I only had my phone camera with me, should have taken my dSLR.
www.nialloswald.co.uk/NiallEngine1.jpg
www.nialloswald.co.uk/NiallEngine2.jpg
The guy who'd taken it apart said that the 'clean' areas around the edges of the pistons indicated oil getting past the rings and that normally the piston should be coated in carbon across the face.
90k seems like nothing for a modern engine, and it was fine pre-christmas (oil consumption virtually nil). Just bad luck perhaps. My folks' old Volvo 740 is still on the go with some friends of our with well over 200k on the clock!
Thanks for the advice, I think I'm going to end up going the short block route at this rate, much as it pains me to do so. I don't really want to pay the garage to put the engine back together again!
Thanks,
Niall
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Assuming it wasn't using so much oil before the cambelt change then it seesm to me that it should be down to the dealer to sort it out and at their cost. it could be the valve stem seals because they have been disturbed, perhaps this is more likely than bore wear, perhaps suggest to the dealer that they explore this avenue, otherwise put some pressure on the dealer and write to Ford:
The Customer Services Director
Ford Customer Relationship Centre
PO Box 4430
Coventry
CV3 9BH
As I say that is assuming that it was healthy before the cambelt change, when was the last MOT, do you have the CO2 printout?
Good luck.
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The last MOT was done at the same time as the service and cambelt change, going by the date/time of the test slip it was done first.
Figures were:
Fast idle - CO - 0.010% (limit 0.2%)
HC - 27ppm (limit 200 ppm)
Natural idle - CO 0.296% (limit 0.3%)
The last one is very close!
Interestingly, I have just been quoted the following price for the part alone:
Zetec-S 1.6 EFI (100PS) Cylinder Assy - Short Block Remanufactured Exchange, From: 15-08-1998 To: 16-12-2002
Retail: £432.03
You pay: £367.23
surcharge: £100.00 (This is refundable on return of old core unit)
So the total cost including shipping and vat would be £595.99 (£117.50 would be refundable on return of old core unit)
I guess there will be other parts needed (cambelt, head gasket etc) but I'd say I've been quoted a lot of labour to bring it up to £1450...
Cheers,
Niall
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What arent you trying to pin it on the dealer?
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They won't have it that it's a problem caused by them. I don't really know what I can do.
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They won't have it that it's a problem caused by them. I don't really know what I can do.
Trade it in for another one?
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Lets get this straight:
The dealer did a service and cambelt change at Christmas, the MOT was done at the same time and the emissions were OK, shortly afterwards the tensioner failed and valves were bent, the dealer fixed the car, all seemed well though it has since been using too much oil, this is a new problem otherwise it would have shown up at the MOT.
Cant see how this can be bore / ring wear, it would have been apparent before.
Must be valve guides, perhaps wrongly installed valves etc.
Either way the burning oil is clearly a result of the work done by the dealer.
Ask for a meeting with the dealer principal and explain the situation calmly and rationally and ask him what he proposes to do to make good this issue caused by his company's workmanship.
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The work is underway now. I guess what it comes down to now is that if the problem (i.e. the oil consumption) isn't fixed I go after them.
Did you see the photos I posted a link to? Having seen the amount of front-to-back movement on the pistons I'm not too hopeful.
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Probably too late now but would like to have seen more investigation from the compression figures, to see if it could be tied down to rings or valves.
I suspect valve problems if all pistons have the same movement because the figures quoted seem ok on 2 cyinders!
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Probably too late now but would like to have seen more investigation from the compression figures, to see if it could be tied down to rings or valves.
If it turns out to be valves I shall be asking for my money back, make no mistake!
I suspect valve problems if all pistons have the same movement because the figures quoted seem ok on 2 cyinders!
Make that 3. I was expecting to see damage to the cylinder with the very low compression. The oil turned to black sludge very quickly - when I got the car it had been serviced 2k miles previously and the oil was still golden and clean. AFAIK the garage I bought it from didn't change the oil at the time of purchase and it stayed clean for some time.
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