I just came across a website with a very blatant and descriptive name which describes the nature of its products most obviously. It sells products associated with "correcting" vehicle mileage indicators (odometers) and also sells portable kits to enable you to open/bypass security devices (alarms, locks etc) on prestigious cars using their equipment.
Here is a short piece of decriptive text.............
"Mileage Correction At Its Best
We have been using digital mileage correction equipment now for over 10 years and can now offer a product worth purchasing, this product is a simple to use hand held device which allows you to alter the odometer reading on any vehicle, it can also be upgraded via your e-mail. No more bulky laptops no more adjusting the speed on the laptop because it wont talk with the car and no more poor quality cables.
12-HOUR-HELPLINE----9am-9pm--7days a week
Second To None
This was not an easy industry in the beginning and required a fair bit of skill in the early years, however with the products we can offer you today the job couldn't be simpler, and with unlimited phone help you will be able to work stress free and continue to make easy money."
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Lots of issues here. Not least of which is the topic, often raised here, the gist of which usually goes as follows........"Why are people stupid enough to buy new cars?" It usually goes on to to berate new car buyers, suggesting that they have more money than sense etc.........
I suggest that the above is just one of the reasons why. There are others, but this is at the root of the reason - that you know a new car hasn't been thrashed, abused, clocked, ringed, written off/repaired, stolen and re-registered........the list goes on.
Having said that, I've had plenty used cars and am well aware that it is perfectly possible to buy genuine used cars - and I've had dozens of them(both good and not so good).
Apart from that issue, I'd be interested to know what others think of the ready availability of equipment such as this, on sale to the public without restriction.
The sale of detectors related to Gatso's and other speed detection devices is one thing. The sale of equipment enabling anyone to "adjust" the mileage of your prospective purchase or equipment enabling someone to clone your key fob is another. Both speed related devices and the kit to which I refer can be regarded as having legitimate use. The former may just possibly be justified as an accepltable reminder of the presence of speed detection devices (although I prefer the cheaper option of a tempered right foot). However, I am unsettled to see just how easy it is to buy the means to 'clock' used cars or steal my car.
KB.
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Regrettably part of the problem is the manufacturers themselves who, to the best of my knowledge, make such adjustments possible. A well known German manufacturer published a service bulletin telling dealers how to 'zero' the odometers of new cars that might have had a slightly high test mileage or whatever. I am not a whizz on computers but if there were no computer connections to odometers, installed by the maker for whatever reasons, then surely there could no be access to them to adjust the mileages recorded.
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There has to be some connection or they would'nt work.
The BBC2 programme which covered clocking bought one of these devices which cost £ 5500. It would'nt take long to recover the initial costs especially since its all cash in hand.
Perhaps its time for the DVLA to start printing mileage readings on the V5.Every time a car is sold or MOT'd the mileage has to be recorded at DVLA by law.
Of course this is not fool proof but would be a sensible start.
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To put it simply, the sale, possession and use of these devices should be illegal.
Mileage and history e.g. write-offs should be on public record from the DVLA, not just on a piece of paper that can be tampered with.
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I fully realise that there is financial gain to be made from clocking. I used to be a valeter years ago. But the consumer is getting what they deserve! When will they learn that we are in the 21st century and not the 1960's. Most modern cars can easily do 200k if serviced regularly! Advertise a car at the guide price with a 130k on the clock and F.S.H. and you will not get any response. It can be in superb condition, both bodily and mechanically. Clock it to 59k throw the history away, stick £500 on the price, and the phone will ring! Stand on a forecourt, the first thing a punter will do, is put their hand on the drivers window to look at the speedo. They don't look for smooth steering wheels, overspray etc. etc... If I buy a car now I would rather it be genuine with history, irrespective of mileage.
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I agree with Paul.
Its quite easy to avoid a clocked car. Refuse to buy one without FSH and lots of receipts.
Most new cars will now have 3 years FSH to keep the warranty, yet when tyring to buy a three year old car it amazes me how many have no paperwork.
Is there a way of telephoning the manufacturer to see if there are any records on their computer e.g. Fords Oracle computer?
As most new cars are bought by fleets I think they should be doing a lot more to help this problem.
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KB,
You are right, it seems odd such devices are freely available. However Paul has pretty much summed up the issue. Folks are still too keen to see that low mileometer reading.
Just one point. Use someone like myself to look over a potential purchase and you won't get caught. Most clocking is so obvious if you read the clues, and I don't mean the worn steering wheel.
In fact be very wary about relying on the traditional signs. At 98,000 miles my own car has a "full-grain" steering wheel and gear knob plus full tread on the pedals. It would clean up to 45,000 mile condition in an hour or so.
David
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Come on then David W, please tell us some of these 'clues' to clocking that you use?
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What about the fleets/private punters that clock their own cars that they have owned from new with no traceable records?
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Guess I asked for that one Keith!
OK so we're talking used cars with a value of £2.5K+ where the mileage and records may be more important.....and in no particular order.
If you're buying privately make sure your're not dealing with an undercover small dealer, many such sales go hand in hand with clocking. Same goes for the V5 not being available or in a different name to the seller...there is no excuse for this.
Don't buy without a documented and complete service history. This can be receipts, a stamped service book or a lease printout sheet. HJ likes receipts rather than/as well as a service book but I'm happy with just the book.
There is not one excuse that is good enough to make you buy without this information being available.
Actually open the service book and leaf through the invoices etc to see they relate to the vehicle concerned. Look to see that the mileage patterns over the years fit in with the claimed useage. For examples fleets don't buy diesel Vectras to do 7K a year, more like 45K+. Chat to the seller and note if he commutes 80 miles daily yet his yearly mileage is only 10K.......then something is up.
Phone up the garages from a few recent stamps in the book, most keep records and will help with basic information.
Bear in mind anyone with a PC can fake a lease company history sheet.
Most important is the "feel" of the vehicle. If you work on them you know what to expect at various mileages. Even the look of an underbonnet area can be a clue.
Tony rightly mentioned about private owners and fleets that might clock between services. I admit these could be harder to spot. But they still have the odd item that strikes as odd, like the make and condition of tyres being wrong for the displayed mileage.
Another example of this. Owner craftily clocking car between services but realises at a genuine 50K he is risking timing belt failure so asks for it to be done "early" by the dealer. Dealer puts it on the invoice or marks up the service book.....you would have to think really hard why any owner would change the timing belt at an indicated 25K.
Also if you ever look at a car and find a little bit of card in the coin tray/change recess that is marked with the speeds in 3rd/4th/5th at certain revs wonder what that is for!
Sometimes "next service" stickers are left in after clocking giving a glaring clue as to the history.
There are a load more things but they are small items that you note in a fleeting moment that then build up a picture over 10mins or so walking round and chatting to the seller.
Overall it is about knowing what the likely mileage is of the car you are looking at and then asking very hard questions about any deviation.
David
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<<<<<<<<< Also if you ever look at a car and find a little bit of card in the coin tray/change recess that is marked with the speeds in 3rd/4th/5th at certain revs wonder what that is for! >>>>>>>>>>>
Yes David, what is that for?
I'm perplexed.
Dave
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If you spend a lot of time driving with no speedo you'll want to know speeds in the gears related to the rev counter!
David
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Maybe it's time the manufacturers started putting the mileometer reading into the EMS in a read-only chip. That way, the mileage on the dashboard could be checked against the EMS to see if they tally.
Andy
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Best idea I've heard yet - but someone would find a way to replace the chip with one that read differently......
Everything else has been said. It should be illegal to sell and use the "mileage correction" equipment. If there's a genuine need, licence those authorised (e.g. main agents - and yes, I haveread the previous post about high test mileages!). This is reminiscent of the motoring-related anomalies we have seen in the recent past such as CB radios & radar detectors - legal to sell, illegal to use...what sort of sense is there in that?
The comment about modern cars being capable of high mileages is also true - the recent programme about clocking showed a Vectra which had had its mileage halved from 150k to 75k - but the inspector admitted that it was in perfectly good condition.
Reputable fleets don't clock cars - I worked for BT until recently & bought a high mileage Saab 9-5 which drives like new. But I'm comfortable, having seen the service book & leasing history, all is above board. This was however bough directly from BY & not through a third party.
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All very sound advice,but with all the modern technology thats available and the fact that more and more cars are going over to electronic 'easy clock speedos'the problem will get worse.Check service records etc very carefully and be 'super extra vigilant'when checking lease company printouts,especially from smaller less well known companies,these are too easy to fake and are given too much importance in the sale of a car.MOTs done at 12 months old and recorded with accessability along with records kept by manufacturers centrally and again with access might make things more transparent,but it will always be very difficult to stop the determined clocker.Lastly a 'mileage correction'man that i know says that the 60% of his work comes from private punters and the rest made up of car rental and leasing companies along with retail and wholesale trade.There is a lot of it going on.
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The consensus seems to be "get the right paperwork."
However, how many cars, even on the forecourts of national chains such as Dixon and Reg Vardy, actually have this paperwork? 10% perhaps?
Perhaps these chains hide the fleet printout as most normal people would dread to think they were buying an ex company car!
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Friend bought a Mondeo from a car supermarket in W London. When he went to collect he was offered the lease service print out which no dount was genuine. However, it appeared to have recurrent problems - can't recall what they were - but salesman pointed out that some of the history was for cars with differetn registrations, saying "they just use any other car on the fleet as it doesn't matter to them". I don't doubt this, I believe the thing was genuine, but I wondered 1) why and 2) whether there were items for THIS car which had been placed n other car service histories.
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Andy,
If the chip was read only, then the car wouldn`t be able to write to it. It has to accept a write. And if something/anything can write to it, so can something else.
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Is it not possible, with GPS, for the car's mileage to be recorded and stored centrally, and made available to prospective buyers? That would certainly make cars with such a feature more attractive to "second users."
Chris
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Bit of Big Brother there, unfortunately, Chris!
The civil rights mob would be marching for sure!
Unfortunately there will always be (a) unscrupulous dealers and (b) unscrupulous people doing the clocking for them!
Note the rise in mobile phone theft - a device said to be secure.
It is well know here that a stolen phone can be barred by the service provider, but unscrupulous dealers can de-bar them in about 30 secs with the right (and readily obtainable) equipment!
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Bit of Big Brother there, unfortunately, Chris!
The civil rights mob would be marching for sure!
Unfortunately there will always be (a) unscrupulous dealers and (b) unscrupulous people doing the clocking for them!
Note the rise in mobile phone theft - a device said to be secure.
It is well know here that a stolen phone can be barred by the service provider, but unscrupulous dealers can de-bar them in about 30 secs with the right (and readily obtainable) equipment!
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I take your point about big brother, Ian, but I don't think it would be a problem if it was the manufacturers who ran the system. Mobile phone companies, GPS companies, credit card companies etc. already have a pretty clear idea what we're doing, and where we are. In UK of course the problem would be the lack of bill of rights, and open government legislation. In *modern* democracies, though...
Chris
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Mark,
It's a simple job to design a counter that is read-only. Make the input a single pulse that increments. Still doesn't stop chip replacement though unless it's embedded in a larger custom ASIC.
On a more important note, ever find that Chilean wine info ?
Kevin...
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I did, and then never sent it. Sorry. I'll do it when I am in the office this week.
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