Quick question on this one...
My knowledge of Honda engines isn't that good, but does it have a Cam belt? If it does, had it been changed prior to the failure?
I had a belt go on my comany car when it had done 55k
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This engine has a chain - Looks like the big end's gone through the block as its all cracked etc...
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I wonder what situations can put a conrod through the block, on a Honda of all things?
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I wonder what situations can put a conrod through the block, on a Honda of all things?
Con-rods do break - I've personally known 2 to go, but both were on pretty new cars (opposite ends of the scale though, one was a Mini - original version- and the other a Ferrari 308).
Seems unlikely that the big-end (bearing cap, or of the con-rod?) has come through the block - could that happen? Normally is would be part of the con-rod that bursts through.
After 4-5 yrs and 56K miles then I guess something like a blocked oilway could be the cause. I hope the indy used a genuine Honda oil filter.
If the car had a full Honda service history then I'd be pretty hopeful that Honda would replace the engine, especially as the car is still in the original purchasers hands. The indy service makes me a little uncertain but there is pressure on manufacturers not to insist on dealer servicing.
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Reckon Honda should offer some goodwill if the indy service used Honda parts, I have had (relatively minor) out of warranty goodwill work done no quibble on the Mondeo including an aux belt, tensioner and pulleys at 80k, 20k miles over the warranty period.
I has to be said, potential help in this scenario is one of the benefits of main dealer servicing, you pay more though it is kind of an insurance.
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Yep, its a big shame that I didnt get it serviced by Hondas the last time - the main reason I decided not to was that Honda are all franchise garages, and if they do not obey to Honda rules i.e spend money on a re-fit then they loose it, and thats what happened to my local dealer !
That was one of my reasons for using my local garage, a registered BOSCH service agent (who is also a long term friend) as I did not want to travel +40 miles, I have obtained the honda receipt (he fitted genuine honda parts, all the filters) and also the Mobile 1 oil which was used on that last service so maybe this will help.
I'm really gutted with all of this, I certainly wouldnt have expected this to happen, I was even thinking about buying the new Diesel one just a few months ago but I will see how this goes on.
I do check my oil regulary, and in fact as I was due to make a 500 mile round trip I did put screen wash in it and check the oil levels a few days before I went.
So, lets see what they say on Thursday, hopefully they will plug it all in the the diagnostics and all will be revelaed - a second hand engine is in the region of £2000, I dred to think how much a new one is - OUCH !
If anyone wants any pictures then let me know, it has smashed the bottom block with some holes in it, thus oil managed to get sprayed all the way up the back of the car, Im just grateful I kept in control of the thing and it didnt go under the wheels !
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"I has to be said, potential help in this scenario is one of the benefits of main dealer servicing, you pay more though it is kind of an insurance."
Yes I agree,
I`m not saying its the Indy, but I have some experience of an indy specialising in VW, I serviced several VW back in the 80s and 90s and encountered a car from this place with a *full service history* from them with the exception of the first main dealer service.
There was low oil pressure and some sludging, while our own family polo`s of the time were fine on just an annual oil and filter change of either GTX or Duckhams. (DIY)
Really made me wonder what oil they were using, let alone the filter.
Regarding the OP`s Honda, this sounds to me typical of a blocked oil filter screen, I wonder if an oil filter can collapse and block the oil flow?
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Sorry DA2000, Just re read your other post about the mobil 1, ignore my comments above,
Regards
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>>I wonder if an oil filter can collapse and block the oil flow?
If so, then the filter relief valve should open, and allow oil to by-pass the filter - so the engine still gets oil, albeit unfiltered.
It's also possible for the main gallery oil pressure relief valve to stick open, this would cause oil starvation at tick-over, but you would expect to see the oil pressure warning light on in this case.
However, if the pick-up screen in the sump is clogged, then the engine will be starved of oil, it doen't take much to block this screen, because the largest pressure that can act at the pump's input is atmospheric pressure, so there's never a large pressure drop across the screen.
Number_Cruncher
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yes, I never saw the engine oil pressure warning light on at any time after the initial starts.
unsure on if it was clogged, but then again if it was then I would assume that the oil pressure light would illuminate ?
I'm also unsure what the honda diagnostics can reveal - but hopefully will know more after Thursday.
I have also spoken to a few car breakers who sell Honda engines - it was quite an interesting conversation as they said when ever he gets them in they go pretty quick, so is there an actual fault with these engines as they have only been out less than 5 years.
TBC....
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Sounds to me like an overheating proble,, on motorway.. engine overheats (>hole in radiator) and bang. Had it happen once myself.
Did the temperature gauge register any high readings? Did you get a hesitation before it went bang? (that's normal before a big blowup as friction builds up due to bearings failing...)
madf
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Given Honda's claims re engine failure rates I would have thought that they would send a team around and buy it off you.
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Given Honda's claims re engine failure rates I would have thought that they would send a team around and buy it off you.
Yep, I would have said this too, I even have to pay for an inspection charge !!
Im not impressed in the slightest with all of this as you can imagine, so I only hope that something good comes out of all this mess, I've normally rated Honda's 100% as I have never had any major issues with them prevously, so hope they re-assure me of this.
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Sounds to me like an overheating proble,, on motorway.. engine overheats (>hole in radiator) and bang. Had it happen once myself. Did the temperature gauge register any high readings? Did you get a hesitation before it went bang? (that's normal before a big blowup as friction builds up due to bearings failing...) madf
I remember my 2 stroke DT50 actually shrieking once as it seized up for the nth time!
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> > Did the temperature gauge register any high readings? Did you get a hesitation before it went bang? (that's normal before a big blowup as friction builds up due to bearings failing...)
I didnt notice anything unusually going on, I was just taken by shock as Its never happend to me before, and at 70MH on the fast lane of a dark motorway all I could think about was veering left when clear to do so, I bet the guy behind me wasnt too impressed with all the oil over their car too, as oil has made its way half way up the back of the car rear, but at least that can be cleaned I guess.
The Engines are also very quiet and soundproofed engine bays, so other than road noise I dont recall anything out of the norm.
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yes, I never saw the engine oil pressure warning light on at any time after the initial starts.
the honda diagnostic system will be able to see the freeze data (ie engine parameters) from the moment of the engine failure, so a good idea of the circumstances will be able to be built up,(ie engine speed,coolant temp,etc)petrol engine total failures on hondas are quite rare,yes you will see the odd head gasket failure due to a leaking radiator occasionally but con rods coming through engine blocks are a rare sight indeed in the honda world, now if it was the diesel crv ive seen engine failures at 150 miles before now but thats not the case here, I would definitly go down the contacing honda customer services route & see if they can help in any way
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if it aint broke don`t fix it
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>>the honda diagnostic system will be able to see the freeze data
This is good - but good in the right hands I guess....
I have logged it with the customer relations route, at the time I was still shook up from the event so they had the blunt phone call from me, and finally got through to a Technical Advisor, but it needed to go into a Honda dealers to be examined before they would say anything, so Im awaiting a response after Thursday.. From my side the engine was performing normal up until the event, no abnormal noises etc, and it gets used once or twice a week, and then these journeys are normally motorway use.
Thats very interesting about the Diesel, as I was actually thinking about getting one of them next :S - Maybe a new one will be on a contract hire agreement next and they can have the thing back no questions asked !!
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here are the photos of the engine as it was found.
www.justapplications.co.uk/honda/
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Thats cerainly a terminal failure.
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Well the CRV has been delivered to the Lindhill Honda dealer at Southend.
Although it was booked in for today, the service manager stated that the earliest we will be able to look at this is Monday, nice to know that they have prioritised this in such a good way ! In fact they seemed to be more bothered about my car leaking oil on their new forecourt.
Also about the flash memory, it seems that they cannot get any history from the ECU, only as to what it is currently reporting - how true that is I really dont know ?
So I guess I will sit back and await to see what they say and go from there.... TBC....
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That is awful service. No excuse for that IMO. If you are booked in today then they should look at it today. I would be on to Honda UK again to register a complaint against them, see if that helps your case, especially if you already have a case logged with them.
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Also about the flash memory, it seems that they cannot get any history from the ECU, only as to what it is currently reporting - how true that is I really dont know
They don't have a black box recorder on board, so their equipment will tell you nothing. All they'll probably say is it's thrown a rod, which is obvious. They aren't metalurgists or scientists, so it will be interesting to see what they come back with.
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Exactly right DaveN. taking this on slightly, I'd get the engine examined independently, by an engineer, not a mechanic/technician. Honda dealers don't have your best interests foremost. Even though they are better than the average, you are just a profit centre. You have no goodwill to call on, as the vehicle was serviced outwith the franchise .
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Yep, I agree about the examined independantly, I spoke to Hondas head office about this and the moment I let it out of their hands then they would not be interested it would seem, unless it was a recognised examiners, which it would be of course.
When I mentioned about this they also mentioned that the university place they use charges 2K per examination, so they are just scaring me off I feel.
I am very interested to hear what they say as a result to the failure, I will push this as far as I can go and I will certainly be making a lot of noise.
The Service Engineer stated were the tapets adjusted on the 48K service as this was necessary, but thats al he could pick up at the time when I showed them the pictures, he also knows me from my previous Honda Accord which I just simply ran and ran till I finally sold it for this CRV, I had this car for 9 Years as it never went wrong :)
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Were you offered an extended warranty after the initial 3 years expired?
I have a TV with a 5 year warranty, if after 8 years of minimal use the tube should fail, do you think I would be entitled to a new one?
Just how long does a 3 year warranty last?
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I think its different. An engine should not fail at 56k even if its missed a service interval. I remember my dads old Lada engine went on and on and didn't start burning oil to 67k, the last time we got it oil changed was at 35k.
If the Honda had 120k on the clock its a different matter.
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My point is these days engines do not fail, especially honda ones (well exclude diesel ones from the looks of this thread).
If Honda state that an engine should only last 56K Miles, then I'll be quiet and pay 6000 for a new one - however, it is not normal for an engine of this age or mileage to fail in such a big way.
Warranty period does not come into the 'fit for sale' terms, i.e. a product should last 7 years etc... if it was designed to last for just under 5 years then I'll rest my case :) - sale of good act will state this.
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Do Honda offer an extended warranty?
Fit for sale, its 5 years old and 2 years out of warranty. Some engines last 50K others 350K, roll the dice!
If this had happened to me I'd be unhappy about it, but I'd pay up and buy a second hand engine for a second hand car.
I don't mean to be rude by the way, its just how I see it, black and white
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Not as simple as this, we have rights ;)
Please take a read of.. www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page24700.html
Such as..
Q2. Do I only have rights for 30 (or some other figure) days after purchase?
No. Depending on circumstances, you might be too late to have all your money back after this time, but the trader will still be liable for any breaches of contract, such as the goods being faulty. In fact, the trader could be liable to compensate you for up to six years.
Q3. Are all goods supposed to last six (or five) years?
No, that is the limit for bringing a court case in England and Wales (five years from the time of discovery in Scotland's case). An item only needs to last as long as it is reasonable to expect it to, taking into account all the factors. An oil filter would usually not last longer than a year but that would not mean it was unsatisfactory.
Therefore Honda head office have stated that this is un-normal and they 'should' last longer than this term, so this is my point !
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In legal terms, should does not mean would, will or guaranteed to. With a car of this age, and this mileage, and serviced outside the dealer network - if it goes bang big time, legaly you have no rights under SOGA. This is because you have to prove the goods were not fit for purpose. As nearly every other honda engine does last longer than this - that in itsself means that the goods ARE fit for purpose. Ie they are generally designed and manufactured to sufficient standards.
Your case is pure bad luck, nothing more nothing less. Honda have no legal responsibility to you of *any* kind.
Your only course of action is to appeal to hondas corporate ideals and philosophies. Threats of legal action will close these off and leave you completely stranded.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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First steps are to try and determine what the cause was. I think that if the OP was able to show a manufacturing defect which caused the engine demise, he would have a strong argument to proffer. Whether it goes to court or is acknowledged by Honda and rectified, is a matter for consideration depending on the strength of the argument. Fitness for purpose is I think a side issue: what the OP will depend on is this from DTI site "Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description. Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, DURABILITY and safety." So even if Honda have sold 10 million fault-free examples of the engine in question, his complaint (against the seller) has to be addressed and engine repaired etc IF there was something about its asembly/parts that made it fail before a reasonable span. 6 years expected life might not be unreasonable: 10 years is doubtful maybe for a car engine. However, its for the OP to prove his argument. Usual disclaimers: legal advice requires a lawyer.
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As nearly every other honda engine does last longer than this - that in itsself means that the goods ARE fit for purpose.
I'd argue that meant that clearly this one must be faulty.
Your case is pure bad luck, nothing more nothing less. Honda have no legal responsibility to you of *any* kind.
Of course we only have one side of the story so far. Honda may find that some other event caused the failure - very low oil level, stone through radiator causing overheating, etc.
Threats of legal action will close these off and leave you completely stranded.
Agree with that, at this stage.
If it wasn't for the lack of full Honda service history, then (barring the cause being an external event or very low oil level) I'd be pretty confident that Honda will replace the engine.
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2 years out of warranty.
Warranty is irrelevant. That's why the phrase 'in addition to your statutory rights' was invented.
I've had items several repaired out of warranty. I got Renault to replace the rear springs FOC on Mrs Payers Clio when it was 4 years old, and that was in 2002, when the car had originally been supplied (in 1998) with 1 year warranty.
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My father had a cam chain snap on his 3 and a half year old K plate Sierra twincam 23K miles, Ford offered 10 -15% of the cost of parts and labour
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We had a cam-belt failure on an 1996 N registered VW: VW paid for the labour, we paid for the parts, in 2003.
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We had a cam-belt failure on an 1996 N registered VW: VW paid for the labour, we paid for the parts, in 2003.
More details needed, did the bolt sheer on the crank? Hence a known VW problem.
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Not as far as we know: it seems that the belt failed at around 72,000, when at idle speed. Several valves bent. All valves replaced, new belt, new stem oil seals.
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PS. 1.6, 8 valve petrol engine.
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That sounds good service to me
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Engine failure is rare these days - in any make - but reliability stats being what they are there will always be a few - little consolation if it happens to you. However, this case needs to be looked at in cold financial terms. The car is way out of warranty, and in all likelihood Honda will shrug its shoulders and say "One of those things" - the 30% off a replacement engine is probably the best you are going to get. So.... You are already in for 6 hours at £90/hr - £540 - the result of which is likely to be "Yes, it's scrap sir. New engine required". For which Honda will probably relieve you of £2500 and another 6 hours to fit it. Say £3000. So, you're lucky if you're going to get any change out of £4k. Even if Honda cough 30% of the engine cost, you're still in for £3250. Alternatively you can take it to an indy who will take one look underneath say "Knackered", source s/h engine and fit it, probably for about £1500. Nearly £2k is a lot to fork out on the off chance that Honda will come over altruistic and pay for the lot. If, after paying out the £1500, you still feel aggrieved (I probably would!) then put it through the small claims court .
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Honda seem to value their image. If its a manufacturing fault I think they will just replace the engine, if its oil related Mobil may do the same as Mobil 1 also has a big image to protect. IMHO, a big embarrassment for either of these companies to be associated with such a catastrophic failure.
I just hope its not poor servicing..
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Just to ask if there is any news, DA2000?
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I asked twice if Honda do extended guarantees but had no reply so I enquired myself.
This maybe of help to other Honda owners.
Up to 5 years old new and used;
1 year £399
2 Years £649
3 years £799
For an additional £70 the policy covers wear and tear
Between 5 and 8 years old;
1 year £499
2 Years £749
I just have the prices, not the terms and conditions etc
The prices seem very reasonable to me.
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Its (or was 15 months ago) a warranty, administered by the same people who warranty washing machines: their name escapes me. Its sold as a Honda product, but the dealers are not generally up to explaining the different terms. I found Blackpool Honda and Brayley Honda (St Albans) exceptions. We took out warranty type HF2 - shop around on price!
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administered by the same people who warranty washing machines: their name escapes me.
Domestic & General ?
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For an additional £70 the policy covers wear and tear
You sure about that? I looked at extending on our Jazz (I think we received a mailshot about it too just after the cars 3rd birthday).
There was never any discussion about wear and tear, but the policy would have been £70 less if we didn't want the 'HondaCare' Europe wide breakdown cover.
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>> For an additional £70 the policy covers wear and tear >> You sure about that? I looked at extending on our Jazz (I think we received a mailshot about it too just after the cars 3rd birthday). There was never any discussion about wear and tear, but the policy would have been £70 less if we didn't want the 'HondaCare' Europe wide breakdown cover.
The prices were sent from Stuart Graham Honda Crewe.
It looks like a photocopy, its not on letter headed paper, but has the individuals business card stapled to it.
Its a basic price list, with no warranty detials etc.
HTH
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Hope to know more tomorrow...
They have performed a strip down of the engine, and the con rod was snapped in half, and they have claimed that it was caused by a bent valve - but more details to follow tomorrow after a visit to them.
They have mentioned some kind of goodwill gesture but no fixed price as yet, so I need to visit the service manager tomorrow and discuss with him and then go from there..
TBC...
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I have just returned from Lindhill Honda and here is the current status.
They have not identified what has caused the problem, but know that the conrod is snapped in half and a bent valve, so a replacement top and bottom block is required.
Honda UK have not even seen the vehicle, but have been sent details via the phone.
Honda UK have offered a good will gesture of £1500 plus the garage have offered a reduced labour rate of £51 per hour, so I am awaiting a report and a final pro forma invoice, but looking in the region of £1500 Honda, £3000+ Me.
This is all based upon them not even looking at it, so I am now contacting the cutsomer relations department to see what they have to say.
TBC...
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Hi DA2000.
Please forgive me if what I am about to say repeats what has already been said as I have been scanning this item for a while rather than reading in detail.
I would suggest that the offer from Honda is a good start as it shows that they are willing to do at least SOMETHING to attempt to resolve this sorry situation.
If it was me I would attempt to keep relations on a pleasant level as I have found that this seems to work the best.
Example...............
In 1992 I bought a two year old Escort from a Ford Dealer that had several faults show themselves a few days after i took delivery of it. I put the car in, Ford cocked it up again and again and I got shirty, justifiably so I considered at the time. They got fed up with me as I got fed up with them, Ford themselves weren't interested so I part exchanged the car for a Pug 306 and lost a packet.
BUT.........
In 1997 father in law ordered a new Audi A3 and waited months for it to arrive. It arrived and after a couple of weeks leaked oil all over his drive. It went in for repair, only to do the same again. Father in law being a very placid man simply sat down at the dealer and calmly said that he was rather disappointed that he had waited so long for a car that was a 'bit of a let down'. The Audi dealer apologised and gave him a loan car and ordered him a BRAND NEW CAR which took several months to arrive, in this time he had road tax and service free driving.
I shouted and lost. He kept his cool and won.
I would imagine that if Honda are prepared to make such an offer at this stage, with calm and careful negotiation and without threatening legalities you could recoup some more of the cost of putting this car back on the road.
I wish you the best of luck,
Kind Regards
Stuart
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Well after almost a full day of calmed phone calls, with just clear points being made this is the outcome.
There was no visibity of misuse of the engine from what they could find, the shell bearings on the 4th cylinder (the one that failed) were fine, in fact the mechanic said if it was his car then he would fit them back in there.. so we were at a loss of how this happened.
After many conversations with Honda UK and some key facts like 'How has this happened' and 'Why have you not sent a specialist engineer to look at it as its a rare case' they offered me a deal.
This was a replacement engine supplied free of charge, and I pay for the fitting which Lindhill offered at a reduced rate of £51 per hour, so looks like my final bill is £600 + VAT.
I have accepted this offer as I simply dont have the time to persue this further, I just hope that my case was a rare incident and other people do not have the same problems.
I really hope Honda UK take this rare opportunity to establish the cause outside of this claim so that at least they are prepared for next time ;)
I agree you must remain calm, it is so easy to loose your temper but agree this simply puts barriers up and gets you nowhere, I am happy in the way this has ended and only hope that this is the end of it :)
Well hope that this post brings some information to others and helps claims if the iV-TEC engines suffer in later life.
Thats all for now
Darren
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Well done: a satisfactory result, I hope.
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Well done. I think that's an excellent outcome which is a credit to your protracted negotiations and to Honda UK.
After some shabby dealings with VAG, Honda will be on my shortlist for my next vehicle.
659.
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Yes, well done :O)
I expected them to offer 20% off the engine and installation, I think you've done very well in negotiating a free engine.
But it does make a mockery of extended warranties
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.. But it does make a mockery of extended warranties
no it does not.
it shows that people do not understand what extended warranties cover.
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>> .. But it does make a mockery of extended warranties no it does not. it shows that people do not understand what extended warranties cover.
Enlighten us
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... Thats all for now Darren
>>
well done, honda and darren.
and good on you for persisiting in your belief despite the negative messages posted in this thread.
if you don't ask, you don't get.
never ever go in with a negative attitude, always hope for a good outcome, and never blink first.
if your claim has a chance of success, do not blink first. give it a shot.
in this case, darren was right and honda have done the decent thing.
i repeat, well done honda and darren.
personally, i think this tale is worthy of being moved to the "discussion" forum.
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>> ... Thats all for now Darren >> well done, honda and darren. and good on you for persisiting in your belief despite the negative messages posted in this thread.
>>>>
I notice you did'nt stick your neck out until after the verdict!
Does your betting shop take your bets after the race has finished?
Well done again Darren ;O)
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I am glad of such a positive result for the OP, but it is a drop in the ocean for such a big company as Honda, and I think a VERY clever piece of PR on their behalf. If Honda UK had immediately agreed to this then would DA2000 have bothered posting in the first place?
As it is, we are all saying well done Honda but it wouldn't surprise me if isn't company policy to string things out a bit & then come through at the last minute in a blaze of glory. Or am I being a bit cynical?
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IMO cynical. They had to check what the cause of the failure was before agreeing to offer any form of compensation.
If I was in the OP's shoes I would think I had won the lottery - what a result - a new engine (fitted by Honda mechanics) for the price of a few hundred quid. Bargain.
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A few hundred quid that was not expected.
Oh yes one hell of a result that is!!
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Hello All, I came across this thread as I was searching some information about Honda CRV engine reliability since I had a bad experience about with my 2007 CVR last February of this year. Basically, I was on a highway drive running around 90KPH, when I manuevered an overtake, as the vehicle is accelerating then suddenly it loses power. From that time on, the check engine light on the panel has triggered on and engine power has shutdown.
I managed to freewheel safely to an emergency lane and when i opened my hood, I saw the the engine is smoking and I smell burning fumes that prompt me to disable the electrical system by removing the battery terminals. Initially, I knew that I may have an engine overheating but the unusual thing is that the temperature gauge on the panel gauge was normal when such thing happened. All my panel reading were all at normal when I made the overtake manuever. I was lucky then, because it was still early in the morning on there were few vehicles on the highway.
I have brought the incident to the attention of Honda dealership and management in our country (Philippines), and I have requested a root cause analysis of what happened especially the non triggering of gauge when abnormal condition of the engine is happening. However, there has been some collusion within the dealership and some of their connections to hide the truth behind what happened. That instead of them taking necessary action to address the concern, they were trying to cover up such incident without taking any necessary action on my case.
My vehicle is well maintained by Honda's recognized dealers and i didn't expect such new vehicle to experience such since my vehicle mileage is around 55K to 58K when it happened.
Since there was collusion to cover up such case, I have sued Honda dealership and its management for their action to give justice on my bad experience.
By the way, when I brought the vehicle to the Honda dealership, they have made a repair qoutation for the damage which is like 45% of the vehicle cost without giving me any root cause of the failure. The FA report I was looking for is for me to understand what had cause the problem so that we can fix rightly the real cause of the problem.
This thread is somewhat similar to DA2000 experience, however it much better for him since he got a deal from the Honda Dealership.
I will let everyone know my update once the litigation is completed.
Thanks everyone for taking time in reading this information.
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