Hi All,
Witnessed the immediate aftermath of a head on collision last night between a Mk2 Mondeo and a Golf. Not sure what the injuries were but both cars were a real mess. The track suit wearing Mondeo driver legged it from the scene.
Few minutes earlier and I would have been tangled up in it. I often drive late at night (through necessity) down the mean inner city streets of a large Northern town (city), in my 1979 Austin Allegro. I can tell you, that the amount of dodgy driving+erratic behavior I see at 12-00 at night is incredible. I think scally wags are about at this time of night.
Question is, does anyone remember having a bump in the seventies/seventies era car and how did it/you stand up? I'm trying to weigh up the added risks of driving my old Allegro vs My 1999 Rover 620ti (itself not the strongest of cars I'm led to believe)
What are the implications of an Allegro or such like being hit by any 1993 is onwards (airbagged) type cars?
Thanks, worried.
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I think you've got to decide what's more important - the (dubious) pleasure of driving your old Allegro (and your still quite old 620) and the safety features of a modern passenger car. Everything's relative, though, and the Allegro-related risk you run now is about the same as it was when the car was built - and people were happy to drive them then. However, bear in mind that its crash-worthiness has probably declined through corrosion, and the cars it's likely to meet in collisions now are heavier.
It's a fact that airbags and other modern safety kit do save lives and reduce the risk of injury. That's why I prefer a modern car. Doesn't have to be nearly new, but it helps...
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It?s not the strength of the car, so much as its ability for its crumple zones to absorb impacts (rather than the impact being passed on to the passengers). That?s why modern cars can looked wrecked after seemingly fairly minor impacts.
The problem with Allegro age cars is that a) the design of crumple zones wasn?t so advanced and b) any weakness caused by rust etc will cause the car to perform in an unpredictable way.
Much older cars tended to be very strong, but the result is that the passengers take the full force of the impact and are more likely to die.
You wouldn?t really expect a ?big? accident to happen driving around town, but I wouldn?t be happy driving with my family in the car on, say, a fast A road in an old car.
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It all depends on what vehicle/object you are going to hit/be hit by.
Even with all the safety features of air bags etc you can still die/kill in an accident. A new car does not gurantee safety; in fact it may even deceive its driver into thinking he is more invincible and thus catch him out.
A well maintained car, driven carefully, is as safe as it can be. You must take account of rust or similar wekness obviously though. Driving carefully is more important than safety features imo!
But drive a brand new small car at 60 into a hgv doing 56 and I think you can virtually predict the outcome? I personally would prefer to be in a bigger older car.
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No.. I disagree stronlgy with all the above.
Have you replaced your seatbelts since the car was made ie. 30 years ago...? - especially if inertai reel...- inspected all the fabric and tested the locking mechanism?
Had the seatbelt mountings and 30cms of metal around inspected rigorously for rust?
If not and you have a smash of any magnitude, chances are your seatbelts will fail or pull through the mountings .. or both...
And by inspect, I mean inspect all the hidden bits using a proper optic fibre lamp and see in cavities inspection device.. A external visual inspection is worthless.. as vertical pillars do corrode inside due to lack of primer protection (let alone paint).
If you think that relying on 30 year old seatbelts is going to save you, I suggest you think again.. and I know Allegros don't rust much compared to other cars of the same era..
As for classic cars, well I had several and death traps .. steering wheel through chest jobs..(Triumph TR2/3) etc...
In 1970 my wife and I saw a beautifully restored 1930 4.25 litre supercharged Bentley driving out of Edinburgh on a lovley Sunday morning with elderly man and wife in front.
In Monday evening paper we saw the same car after it hit something (can't remember what) all crushed and mangled. Man and wife dead...
No doubt the Bentley was restorable....
madf
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Everything's relative, though, and the Allegro-related risk you run now is about the same as it was when the car was built - and people were happy to drive them then.
Maxy, I would disagree with that. The average vehicle of 2007 is *much* heavier and bigger than the average of the Allegro era. Basic physics suggest that the lighter of two vehicles in a collision (all other things being equal) will come off much worse.
Davidh, I think an Allegro weighs about 800kg, a current Mondeo (for example) can weigh anything up to 1700kg.
I never thought I would say this, but if you're that concerned, you're better off in the 620! Approx 1300kg I think?
Safety in that may not be great, but it can't possibly be any worse than the old Austin.
If safety bothers you that much, buy a new car! :)
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">Allegro weighs about 800kg<"
Surprising how light earlier cars are:
www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/?man=674&f=...c
No idea how accurate the information is.
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Beat me to it Micky.
According to carfolio.com, a modern Fiesta is longer, wider than and weighs at least 320kg more (40% more) than an Allegro, so the Allegro is likely to come off worst against a modern small car, let alone a Focus or Mondeo sized car. You should be safer in the Rover 620.
I sometimes wonder though, if you drive 'X' thousand miles per year, what is the statistical probability of being involved in a crash? I drive on the M1 twice a day 5 or 6 days a week, and in 3.5 years I have only once seen a crash actually occur (A car tried to cut in front of a lorry to go up a slip road, about 300yds ahead of me, but failed. No casualties, I assume just brown trousers and embarrassment). I quite often see the aftermath, but only once seen a collision. What is the probability of being in the wrong place at the exact split second of an impact occurring?
When I see fresh broken headlight glass while queuing at a roundabout, I wonder how long ago the crash was. I used to do about 8k miles per year, now I do about 20k miles per year, I sometimes wonder why I don't see more crashes, but I don't..
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I've wondered this as well. I do about 20k miles a year and very rarely see an accident, even then it's only a very minor bump, usually cars in the fast lane driving too close and have a gentle bump with a bit of broken glass and bent bumpers.
I think I heard somewhere that insurers expect the average driver to have one major smash (i.e. not a car park prang, but a proper clout at speed) once every 100,000 miles.
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I think I heard somewhere that insurers expect the average driver to have one major smash (i.e. not a car park prang, but a proper clout at speed) once every 100,000 miles.
Just done a quick calculation.
The worst smash a car of mine was involved in was when it as parked up and was hit by a car doing well in excess of the 30 limit. Mileage in cars I'd owned up to that point was just over 100,000!
My wife saw a four car end to end smash only yesterday - she was car number 5, but stopped before impact. I passed the scene five minutes after she got home and one of the cars was an M reg Micra which was sandwiched, it wasn't a pretty sight so i dread to think how an Allegro would have fared.
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Just done a quick calculation. The worst smash a car of mine was involved in was when it as parked up and was hit by a car doing well in excess of the 30 limit. Mileage in cars I'd owned up to that point was just over 100,000!
Welcome Mr Average! ;)
Much the same here actually, and now I'm heading towards 200,000 miles I'm beginning to get a little nervous - even if it is only a statistic...
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>> Everything's relative, though, and the Allegro-related risk you run now is >> about the same as it was when the car was built >> - and people were happy to drive them then. Maxy, I would disagree with that. The average vehicle of 2007 is *much* heavier and bigger than the average of the Allegro era. Basic physics suggest that the lighter of two vehicles in a collision (all other things being equal) will come off much worse.
Good point. See my next sentence.
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Yep - saw your point *after* I posted... ;)
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Older small and mid-range cars offer very little in the way of crash protection. Some older, larger cars offer some protection, Volvos for example. Elderly barges can benefit from the you-are-my-crumple-zone factor, but that's meaningless when you hit a tree. The Allegro is potentially a death trap when compared with modern cars, but that's progress. Crash avoidance is always the best option, but that doesn't help you when you're stationary and the car behind doesn't stop.
Driver training is perhaps the best improvement to safety, followed by seatbelts.
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The Allegro was notorious WHEN NEW for the lack of rigidity of the body: jack up at the wrong part in the front and the windscreen fell out..
They were carp when new and now they are imo a death trap on wheels altho' most fortunately have gone to the crusher where they belong....
madf
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Drive the old car if it gives you pleasure, just be as careful and defensive as you can.
It may only be an Aggro but it probably gives you more satisfaction to use than a modern boremobile that bristles with safety devices to lull its driver into making mistakes through a false sense of security.
In my days of driving old cars (and up until quite recently I commuted with a Rover Three Thousand Five) knowing what might happen if something went amiss was enough to keep me on the straight and narrow -but you just can't drive for everyone around you as well.
If we thought about what might happen all the time we'd never get out of bed, would we?
Come to think of it, if all the glorious old Bentleys and other landmark motors are to be kept off the road and out of sight in favour of safety-conscious and eco-friendly Mondeo TDCIs and the like we might as well stay there anyway...
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Drive the old car if it gives you pleasure, just be as careful and defensive as you can. It may only be an Aggro but it probably gives you more satisfaction to use than a modern boremobile that bristles with safety devices to lull its driver into making mistakes through a false sense of security.
That is so true. You actually have to drive the thing! Besides, I love going against the grain and not following fashion. Its also cheap as chips to run.
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Safety is the sole reason I choose my Fiesta, the Ka which is based on does well in crash tests (for its year), the Fiesta MK3 does well in Swedish crash statistics and it has airbags, impact bars etc. Despite all that I would never feel like in it as a long term prospect. It still only weighs about 900kg.
The Rover 100 NCAP test shows how small cars of the 80's were.
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You are safer in any car driven defensively than the safest car in the world driven carelessly.
If safety really bothers you so much, don't drive. Work at home in a padded cell and take out a lot life insurance in case a metiorite hits the house.
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I was rear ended while stationary in a Citroen BX of 1987 vintage. I had two kids in the car, one in the front and one on back seat. It was on a national speed limit road at dusk and the stupid women was half asleep. Impact speed was estimated by cops at about 45 mph having reduced from 60 when she woke up and noticed me waiting to turn right.
Car was written off because it was old ( happened in 1997 ) but the damage wasnt too bad, no injuries whatsoever and the damage didnt stretch as far as the back seat even.
Even modern cars are not always safe, it depends largely on what car you buy as the difference between a NCAP 3 star and a 5 star is quite considerable. You can still buy a car that wont do you many favours.
Accident avoidance is the best solution - cars dont have accidents, people do.
Whenever ive driven older cars, I take more time, and always try to pay maximum attention to whats going on around me - I have avoided two head on impacts in the last two weeks by doing so.
One was an old fella and his wife who still thought it was 1960 and cars were a rare sight so as i was approaching the end of a blind to the left T-Junc, he cut straight across the end as he turned into my road having emerged from behind a wall that makes the turn blind. He had no idea what was coming and didnt seem to notice me as he flashed past my front bumper. I happened to see a flash of the roof of his car as it disappeared behind the wall and that was why I slowed sooner than usual.
The other was some idiot in a BMW ( isnt it always ) overtaking near the brow of a hill, me coming over it from the other direction. One of those times that my pottering along at 40 on national speed limit roads paid off.
Incidentally, my van is most likely no safer than the OP Allergro, despite my airbag, so I know how exposed it can feel! Makes you think more.
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One of those times that my pottering along at 40 on national speed limit roads paid off.
Must...restrain...
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Surely you're safest of all in the safest car driven defensively? You can never avoid all the mistakes of others, no matter how hard you might try.
Plus, there's no need to be so black and white about the issue, you can take safely seriously and not put yourself at unnecessarily risk without becoming agrophobic! :)
There is a sensible middle ground...
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I find some of the responses in this thread really odd.
Yes, the aggro doesn't have all the latest safety features. But, I think it is many times safer than being on a motorcycle. Where do you draw the line?
If the OP is worried about the risk he is taking, and is really concerned about safety, then, fair enough, perhaps he should consider a more modern car, but, even so, going near any road carries an element of risk, and we all just have to accept that.
My view is that so many pleasures of motoring have been erroded, particularly due to traffic levels, scameras and the like, so if driving an old Aggro puts a smile on your face, then, fair enough. It isn't as though you are putting other road users in danger by using it (you haven't fitted it with a loud exhaust, powerful stereo, and aggressive bull-bars have you?)
I agree with the point made above, in that we can go too far with this safety obsession, and we should consider accepting a little risk if there is enough fun there to justify it.
Number_Cruncher
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>>It isn't as though you are putting other road users in danger by using it
Being very picky but it probably isn't a very pedestrian impact friendly design. But then Rover 600 and millions of other cars designed over 5 years ago are probably no better.
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I think you are absolutely correct sine, but while there are vans, buses, coaches, and trucks about, the difference between an Aggro and a modern car in terms of pedestrian safety probably isn't a large concern.
Although it probably has never been tested, I have a sneaking suspicion that an Aggro wouldn't actually perform too badly in pedestrian impacts, when compared with other cars of the period.
Number_Cruncher
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The Allegro was notorious WHEN NEW for the lack of rigidity of the body: jack up at the wrong part in the front and the windscreen fell out..
True.
They were carp when new and now they are imo a death trap on wheels altho' most fortunately have gone to the crusher where they belong....
Eh? We wouldn't have a classic car scene if we all had that attitude. An Allegro is seriously flawed on so many levels and thats exactly what make it GREAT!
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"seriously flawed on so many levels and thats exactly what make it GREAT"
No need to bring my wife into the discussion
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Phil
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I wouldn't worry about it. The chances of you dying or being seriously injured in a car accident are very small.
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It's best not to think about it. Just enjoy the car and drive defensively.
JH
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when I was at uni a friend had an orange allegro. She used to wear a charlie brown style motorcycle helmet while driving the car.
You could also put a small cushion on the steering wheel and a pillow up your jumper. Shin pads and knee pads? metal toe cap shoes.
a knight of the road..
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1300 Allegros are wonderful donors of their engines to put some power into a Mini. My Mini has had such a transplant and with twin carbs, goes very well. The All-Agro looked like someone pumped up an 1100, and suffered from insufficient development and excessive penny-pinching. The engine was really the only bit worth saving. Perhaps the 'quartic' steering wheel was to prevent people letting the wheel slip through their hands when exiting corners. I'm sure the 'hand over hand' method was mandatory.
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The 1750 engine could be forced into a Mini, creating a rather strange device.
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I drove a 1300 (Mark2) and 1500 Allegro (Mark1) from new .(no choice)
The 1300 was instantly forgettable. The 1500 went well but the list of faults from new: was abysmal.
Now lets see:
failed windscreen washer pump (all affected)
Suspension lost pressure due to incorrect assembly. (twice)
Had to trim flashing from quartic steering wheel as it cut my hands!:-(
Engine sump plug loosened after 5000 miles on drive to Scotland: noticed low oil level near Montrose and drove VERY slowly last 10 miles.. local garage tightened it up and put in 4 pints of oil
1500 gearchange was abysmal.
roof paint pitted and had to be repainted.
Passenger armrest fell off.
It's 30 years ago: I can remember most of that like yesterday. Shows what an impact it made.
Truly AWFUL cars.....no wonder sensible people stopped buying their cars...
madf
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Truly AWFUL cars.....no wonder sensible people stopped buying their cars... madf
Sounds only as bad as a Renault you could go and buy today.
The thing with old cars and reliability is simple - 30 years on, most of the design and build issues are known now and solutions discovered, so the cars today are often far more reliable than they were originally if someone ' in the know' has got hold of it and done the modifications.
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My first car was a blue Aggro 1.3 Super. TYD 220R. And it wasn't THAT long ago (1989) but I don't remember even thinking twice about accident safety or anything like that. Now you could argue that's because I was 17 and didn't give a fiddler's proverbials about anything (and you'd probably be right) but I inherited the car off my mum (who who is the world's biggest worrier), and neither she or my dad said anything either.
Does that prove we've become really conscious of safety in the intervening years or does it alternatively mean that my parents didn't care about me or that they were ignorant of safety issues?
Other cars in the d household at that time were: Fiat Regata 85S and a Vauxhall Nova.
Glamorous stuff.....
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And it wasn't THAT long ago (1989) but I don't remember even thinking twice about accident safety or anything like that. Does that prove we've become really conscious of safety in the intervening years or does it alternatively mean that my parents didn't care about me or that they were ignorant of safety issues?
Same here, it was exactly the same in our family, I was 17 in 1989 too. I dont think your parents were negligent or ignorant; no more so than the vast majority of parents. Car safety was not considered and was not a big selling point, if it had been then everyone would have bought Volvos. Drivers (or at least my family/ friends/ friends families) did not drive around expecting to have a crash, so didn't think they had to buy the safest car available.
Then Audi introduced Procon 10, Merc introduced airbags, safety turned into a major marketing tool, manufacturers started telling us we should drive safer cars. Was there some Govt/EEC initiative for crash-worthiness of cars at this time, in the early '90's? If there was I don't remember it; at that age it was irrelevant to me.
For me its still not among my buying criteria. My car has two airbags but that wasn't a consideration when I bought it.
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In 1966 I saw (at close quarters) a driver impaled on the steering column. I went out the next day to buy seat belts for my 1965 Singer Chamois which already incorporated the mountings for retro fitting of the belts. I've had (and worn) seat belts ever since.
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L\'escargot.
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