Question, Does rust matter anymore when buying new and which are the safest buys in the corrosion stakes?
My own take on this is that for lots of people it doesn`t matter, they have never owned a car with severe rust and there is the opinion that modern engine management systems will be the end of it eventually.
What if you lived through the 60s though, with a parents new Vauxhall Victor 101?
later my Saturday `task` was to work on the rust, I can remember it had a third of the outer sills disintegrated to nothing and the inner wings being perforated into holes all along the top.
With welding and sheets of fibreglass and resin it eventually made it to seven years old and into the scrapyard.
But more importantly, for most of its life it was an embarrassment to be seen in due to rust.
Fast forward to 1976, A Fiat 126 bought new was Ziebarted and yet within a year was not only rusting in all the seams, but rust was radiating out from the plugged holes that the rustproofing had gone in through.
Forward to 10 years ago, 1997 and a friend buys a Polo as a `safe buy` thinking its got to be better than a Peugot for rust.......
It sits on her drive today scabbed with rust and with inside out corrosion in the door bottoms.
Forward a few more years,
Another friend buys a Merc and shortly after looks at rust bubbling in the rear wings with amazement.
Who would have thought that a modern Fiat would be a safer bet?
Forward..2 years ago
My colleague, a bright young female graduate asking me to look at rust on her car. Turns out its a Ka and on its flank a small stone chip has scabbed out under the metallic paint to the size of a 10p piece. How do you tell her that any other car in the car park would not show rust if it got a similar chip and was not touched up?
In Conclusion,
Perhaps rust only matters if you have experienced it and suffered as a result? and most modern young drivers will never have.
But how do you predict the future for buying as rustproof a car as possible, when a Volkswagen and Mercedes Benz can rust faster than a Peugot and Fiat in the modern era?
Lets narrow it down a bit to where it really matters, an old boy buying his last new ( retirement) car for under £8,000.
The Picanto, Matiz, panda, C1, punto, polo,Ka, et al............
Which is rust free at 10 years and which scabbed with rust? How can we predict it other than giving them all a little tap with an ice pick in a not too obvious location and spraying with salt water to test for galvanizing....
Now why can`t consumer/ car mag testing do useful things like that?
Regards
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Good post.
My Dad had two Victor 101's that rusted badly, his father had a 1960's Jaguar where the front crossmember pulled off when they tried to tow it. Mum had her own car through the 60's and 70's and they were all rusty in some place. Yet all the above cars were under 7rs old al the time.
Dad had a new Triumph 2.5PI in 1972... that had tailgate rust showing by the first service at three months old.... "yep it's a devil but what can you do the salesman said"!
In those days I seem to remember only Saab, VW and Volvo staying smart any longer than average.
In late '73 we had a new Audi 100GL... that was visibly in a class above anything that had gone before with thick paint and the first proper underbody treatment I'd seen... unlike the usual rust inducing black underseal that had gone before.
Next came a Lancia Beta which was sold at a year old just before it disolved.
In our first few years of driving myself and the good lady owned 5 Rover P6 V8's. Some were very rusty indeed and these were all only 5-8yrs old. Another early car of mine was a Citroen DS about 7yrs old... amazing to drive but so much rust I hand painted it all over!
Over that whole period I hated the Sunday morning filler and spray can routine round the wheelarches.
Then in the mid 1980's something happened... it seemed many makers were able to build cars that actually resisted rust quite well. As the early/mid 1990's approached we realised that the Citroens/Peugeots were some of the best.
Fast forward to now and that is why the good lady and I each have a recently bought Citroen (1998 & 1999). These still look perfect and our experience of the previous 1993 Citroens we only sold last year tell us they will last to 2013 if we choose.
What is most ironic is that, as discussed in another thread, I have just Chosen my latest 1999 Xantia Estate over a similar age Mercedes C-Class Estate. Sadly the Mercedes rust issue was a large part of my decision for not wanting to take one into advancing years.
DW
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The mid to late 1980s PSA Peugeot / Citroen started hot dip galvanising the cars before painting, that's why they are so rust resistant.
Fiat also started using the same process around the same time as well.
Now they just used galvanised steel to make the panels with.
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I saw a lovely Datsun 260Z the other day, it looked in good nick but not restored.
The patina of age was confirmed when I looked closer, the paint was dull in places and the chrome a little pitted, the interior a bit scuffed.
And in the read window was a fading, peeling Ziebart sticker .... there can't be many 70s Datsuns around these days!
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It would be very interesting to try to compile via the Forum a list of "non rusters" based on members' experiences. I look after a 1998 Pug 106D and the outer panels are rust free - electro galvanised though, not hot dip (that's the technology for rustproofing dustbins). However, PSA spoil the ship by leaving the rear underside above the spare wheel unprotected - without the wax based protection I have applied it would be a mess by now, or in holes.
The larger VW group cars seem pretty good - Passats excellent, Golfs OK mainly but Polos seem to rust quite badly in places. The same seems to apply to the clones.
My submission for non-rusters (there must be lots of others):
PSA (in most places)
Larger VAG cars
659.
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PSA (in most places) Larger VAG cars
Certainly in my experience, although the 306 was a 51 plate and the Toledo an 02 so not a particularly grand acheivement to reach a whole 5 years old without rusting...
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OP said "Question, Does rust matter anymore when buying new and which are the safest buys in the corrosion stakes?"
Well the answer has to be yes.
And it's all down to the manufacturing processes and paint specified. Now Paint Plants are BIG and full of robots and BIG dip tanks.. These cost £100s of Millions and you don't replace them overnight... and some have size limitations eg height or width (Fiat had issues in the 19990s - they I believe had no existing paint plants that could paint a SUV - hence one (of many ) reasons why no big SUV from Fiat)..
And welding of body panels requires different procedures if using zinc coated steel (see Aprilia on Mercedes thread)
So my conclusions are:
1. Paint problems continue .. cos if plant related it will take decades for new plants. Peugeot /Citroen invested in new ones in the lates 1970s early 1980s I believe. Hence 205s 106s Xantias last well .. etc
Ford have had poor paintwork /metal choice cos of their failure to invest - hence Mondeos /Fiesta rust...and Ka paint quality!
2. Model designs continues using the same materials.. so as 1 above.
So if a manufacturer made poorly painted cars in the past it is likely that this will continue unless they invest in new plant and processes.
So watch what happens with 10 year old cars from each maker... - cos 10 years ago they should be good BUT if they are not it is likely they will not be now...
As usual this is a generalisation ... but if you disect a 10 year old car you will see lots of non essentil panels often with surface rust especially under the bonnet... and if they are in major load bearing members...
Of course some makers have a consistently good record - BMW... and some have improved greatly - namely the Japanese..(anyone seen a rusty Yaris? the earliest are 8 years old..)...Whilst Vauxhall were notorious for not painting parts of Omegas and Rover invested in a new paint plant at Solihull for LandRover in the 1990s...
madf
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Spot on O. Washing the car was following by scraping the rust out of the chips, prime, wait, paint, wait, paint and maybe a top clear coat. And it still looked scabby. If it got serious Fairy Liquid bottles came in handy for the sills!
The wife's mk1 Clio got the boot when the wheelarches stared to rust and I told her I wasn't getting into that routine again.
JH
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We have a 7.5 year old Yaris, and not one spot of rust anywhere - any paint chips can be touched up when one get's time/weather allows.
A company Mk1 Vectra I had some years back needed any paint chips touching up immediately, or rust would start on the exposed metal.
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Rust arises due to poor processes, poor choice of materials, or both.
Mercedes were unlucky when they moved to water based coatings and failed to achieve consistent results - with the result that the coatings failed on many vehicles.
Fords seem to use very thin paint and it is poorly applied - look under many recent Ford cars and you will see patches that have not been painted properly - others turn out well painted. Jaguar (surprisingly) also seem to be very hit and miss. You don't see many rusty Japanese cars nowadays, although the paint can be thin and soft on some. I would steer clear of the 'sealers' that some dealers try to sell at purchase ("StupidGlaze" only £399, and the like) - seems a bad idea to polish at fresh paint. Let it harden for a few weeks.
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Minis - horrid little rustbuckets. I was told it was down to steel quality rather than anyhting else much. A Mini that SWMBO had rusted more in 6 weeks than her current MINI has in 6 years. Says it all really.
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Mini that SWMBO had rusted more in 6 weeks than her current MINI has in 6 years.
Have they really been out that long?! :-o
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Yes = She had one of the first ones around here anyway. Summer 2001. It's been a cracking little motor. Serviced on the button but washed only once a year. She has put nearly 100k on it now, nothing's broken off and as I said no rust. She is reluctantly looking to change it now. Be worth something one assumes when sold. Well according to Glass' thing between 3.6 and 4.6k. Not bad in 6 yers is it ?
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Seeing as it has been reliable, you know the history of it, is still in class A condition, she likes it, and as the MINI is still very much a popular stylish car, selling it on seems like lunacy!
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My Omega was bought new in 1994 and taken in part ex in 2004 and had no rust on it at all.
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That's what she says. we went looking for a new car yesterday, she wants a Golf sized car now and fancies a GTi or an A3 but somehow she still comes back to the MINI as the acme of car design (for her), time will tell - she was very taken with a GTi in black.....
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I had a Panda;galvanized body never any rust but the DOORS!!!!
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But vans are a different story- look at Transits, afterthree years they rust. In fact most vans except for VW are awful as they are throw away. But if you put a motorcaravan on the back you do not want to throw it away.
Cars have changed dramatically , you are right. my 7 yr old Skoda is perfect. But my 1991 Escort was poor, so it changed in the mid 90 s, I reckon for cars.
many cars are scrapped for electronics now so the manufacturers have still got you by the throat, who keeps a car even 10 years now?
They depreciate so fast you can buy another
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I had an early Mondeo ('93 model) which the other half scraped on a fence post, down to the metal in a substantial area on the rear wing and wheelarch.
In two years of being exposed to UK weather the exposed area did not rust ... those early German-built cars were made very well indeed IMHO
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I had an early Mondeo ('93 model) which the other half scraped on a fence post, down to the metal in a substantial area on the rear wing and wheelarch. In two years of being exposed to UK weather the exposed area did not rust ... those early German-built cars were made very well indeed IMHO
It must be galvanised steel then.
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But vans are a different story- look at Transits, afterthree years they rust. In fact most vans except for VW are awful as they are throw away. But if you put a motorcaravan on the back you do not want to throw it away. Cars have changed dramatically , you are right. my 7 yr old Skoda is perfect. But my 1991 Escort was poor, so it changed in the mid 90 s, I reckon for cars. many cars are scrapped for electronics now so the manufacturers have still got you by the throat, who keeps a car even 10 years now? They depreciate so fast you can buy another
VW vans rust as well, my dads just got shot of a 96 VW Caddy that had a fair bit of rust on it & a hole you could get your fist through on the sill under the drivers door.
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Forward to 10 years ago, 1997 and a friend buys a Polo as a `safe buy` thinking its got to be better than a Peugot for rust....... It sits on her drive today scabbed with rust and with inside out corrosion in the door bottoms.
There was plenty of evidence by 1997 that PSA didn't have a rust problem with their cars any longer and there are lots of PSA cars around today, that are over 10 years old, that are showing little or no rust.
I read somewhere in a car review that the Xantia was considered prone to rust, which I think is totally untrue.
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Xantia rust trap around the rear bumper area ( cant remember exaclty where )
Saxo rusts there as well, plus inside the chassis rails
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Good thread. I'd like to see a rust / paintwork "league table". After all, we seem to get league tables for everything else.
My own experience of owing 3 cars is that the 2 Fords (a run-out Mark III Fiesta and a 2003 Ka) both rusted badly - a Citroen didn't have a problem.
I do wonder if Ford (and possibly other manufacturers) are inclined to cut corners on smaller, cheaper models (e.g. Ka, Fiesta) but to do a better job on larger cars?
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I'd like a league table too. I wonder with the US car builders GM & Ford, whether the rust resistance depends where the car was built. It takes time and money to re-jig a factory to handle, say, zinc coated steel as the welding and paint processes are different.
On the baisis of observation, any Ford built at the thankfully gone Dagenham factory was a ruster. The same can be said of Halewood - look at all the rusty Escorts around. When they stripped out the Escort line at Halewood, they made Jags.....
German built Opels have often been remarkably rust resistant but the Luton built Vauxhalls were often bad rusters.
More observations would be interesting but I'm sure that with the multinationals, build location is significant - as it is with the likes of MB and BMW.
659.
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>tyro
Ford paint quality is imo poor... and until recently (1998?) used little zinc protected steel.
Xantia are very good: even ones in scrapyards are good... lack of maintenance usually kills them imo.
Saxo rust at rear under boot floor and rear members ..as do some 106s.
Jaguars pre 1996 all look bad: especially underneath.
madf
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My L Reg Audi 80 has no rust at all evern on arches, its quite astonishing.
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The Audi 80 is superb with regards to the bodywork quality. I have seen an example that has been used in all weathers and covered over 250k and bodywork wise is superb. Ford in the past have been a mixed bag. Recent Fords are better than older ones. The first Ford vehicle that had correctly zinc treated panels was the Mondeo in 1993. The Focus is in 1998 was also zinc coated, these cars can still rust but are better than other blue oval examples.
The KA can suffer major rust and is based on Fiesta 1989 build quality, I have seen a 1996 example written off due to rust.
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