I have a Saab 9-5 3.0 TiD estate, June 02 registered. Had it from new, 57K on the clock - great car. Full service history with one dealer. A few knocks and dinks on the outside and needs a good clean on the inside due to the kids, but otherwise a great car.
The day before I was due to trade it in (for a Saab 9-3) - engine failed. Took it to the dealership who investigated and advised that it had ingested water as the airintake was wet, shattering the bigends etc etc. In short - needs a new engine before they'll honour the trade-in and unless I persuade them to source a second-hand one, the car will be scrap as the cost of a brandnew engine will out-weight the trade-in value.
Now - here's the snag: I can't see how it ingested water. I drove the car solidly all weekend, the roads were clear of water, and immediately prior to the engine failing, I'd been cruising the M1 for an hour in the outside lane, and I guess I would have noticed hitting a deep pool of standing water!
The dealership and Saab UK insist that it's water ingestion and the only other thing I could think of was cambelt failure leading to a cracked head and coolant being sucked in and then out the airintake, thus making it wet - but the cambelt is intact.
They suggest I claim on my insurance (but seeing as I didn't hit water, I can't honestly do that!). Off the record they suggest it's happened a few times with the big 3.0 diesel, but I can't see what I can reasonably expect Saab to contribute even if I managed to convince the central office to contribute towards the cost on the basis that Saab engines shouldn't just fail like that at such low mileage.
Advice on how to approach this would be appreciated. I want to get the car back up and running so I can do the trade-in and not lose too much of the 6750 pounds trade-in value they offered me. I have already purchased outright the new car, so I suppose I could get the work done cheaply away from Saab using a reconditioned engine and then sell it privately, but frankly it's a lot of hassle that I'd rather avoid.
{Subject header given a more meaningful title than "Help! Advice needed" - DD}
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Is the V6 Diesel not the same ISUZU engine as the Vauxhall Vectra/Sigma etc?
This might increase the available engines on the 2nd hand market
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If its ingested water i would expect engine to have seized and thrown a rod or similar out of the block.
Shattered big ends but no bent interanl components or parts thrown through t he block surprises me a little.
I would be going for another opinion on the engine failure first and then talking to saab again possibly.
How did engine fail? at high speed cruising or low speed etc etc.
And on a critical note ! 1 hour in the outside lane? Are you one of these drivers who clog up the roads because you cant use other lanes? However thats not the issue here !
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Also used in 3.0 Espace. The basic engine may be the same but all the ancilliaries will probably be different, ECU settings, pipework, clips etc. Not a job for the easily defeated.
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All the ancilliaries should still be intact,there is a place i Sheffield that dismantles Saabs worth a try 01142443440.
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I very much doubt it if he uses one from a Vauxhall or Espace.
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His Saab parts will be intact he only needs a short motor.
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Seem to remember reading somewhere of a similar engine failure to yours,IIRC there was talk about excessive diesel fuel injection
causing the engine to " Hydraulic "
Difficult to prove though .
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good point - not thought of that, will ask
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... The day before I was due to trade it in (for a Saab 9-3) - engine failed. Took it to the dealership
what bad luck and timing, eh .
1. can you describe exactly the sequence of events and symptoms?
.. Took it to the dealership
2. how did you get it there?
3. where is it now?
Saab UK insist that it's water ingestion
4. have they had their own mechanic down there to examine it?
5. have the dealers have not given you an estimate of how much it would cost to repair?
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It would be interesting to know exactly what the driving circumstances were at the time of failure. Diesel engines have very high compression ratios, so it doesn't take much water to cause major damage (say, 150cc to wreck the engine). On some cars the intake is mounted quite low down so it can easily draw in water from spray and puddles.
The other option is a failure of the fuelling system leading to overfuelling and wrecking the engine - there was a fellow posted on here a few months back about it happening to him on a Ford TDCI (wrecked the engine too).
The SAAB's engine is a GM/Isuzu engine and as mentioned also goes in Renaults - probably lots of differences though. It will be one hell of job to fix...
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The valves are bent, and the casing smashed leaving bits of big end and stuff in the sump. I was cruising at high speed (and yes, I do pull into the inner lanes if there are spaces!). I might well go for a second opinion, but need to get a feeling for a) the likelihood of convincing a manufacturer like Saab to contribute and b) who much of the cost would they pay towards - should they admit mechanical failure etc.
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I am not familiar with engine, but I would say it is well worth checking to see if the belt has jumped a few teeth. Carefully check the crank-cam timing and all the belt guides/tensioner.
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Might it be worth posting on the vectra-c.com forum and see if anyone has had a similar experience with the equivalent engine in a Vectra or a Signum? Just a thought.
Hope it gets sorted out ASAP.
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It should be easy to show if the water in the inlet came from outside or from the engine - just have to show that there is coolant/antifreeze in the mix. An independent engineer would be useful.
I would imagine that there is a very big bill in swapping this engine - you might be lucky and find a good second hand unit, and it's worth looking. The alternative is to sell the car 'as is' to someone who needs a bodyshell - this may well be easier and probably quicker.
I disagree that it takes 150mL to wreck an engine - I think it would be closer to just 20mL in a diesel engine of around 500cc / cylinder - hence the possibility of overfuelling.
A cracked head gasket could also allow a small amount of coolant into a cylinder with the same results.
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It should be easy to show if the water in the inlet came from outside or from the engine - just have to show that there is coolant/antifreeze in the mix.
In a smash-up like this, where the head is cracked, water-coolant could be all over the place. it would be hard to tell which was the cause of the problem and which was the result.
I disagree that it takes 150mL to wreck an engine - I think it would be closer to just 20mL in a diesel engine of around 500cc / cylinder - hence the possibility of overfuelling.
Ingested water would be drawn into all cylinders, not just one - 6x20ml is "about" 150ml, but you get the idea.
A cracked head gasket could also allow a small amount of coolant into a cylinder with the same results.
If the crack can let water in then it would let it out again under the pressure of compression, not to mention combustion.
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>>In a smash-up like this, where the head is cracked, water-coolant could be all over the place. it would be hard to tell which was the cause of the problem and which was the result.<<
I might expect an independent engineer to say this - I can't see how the dealer can be so sure that it's not coolant.
Would a conclusion that the water is not coolant be conclusive ? Has the dealer tested it ?
>>Ingested water would be drawn into all cylinders, not just one - 6x20ml is "about" 150ml, but you get the idea.<<
I agree - although an overfuel, or other internal problem may affect just one cylinder.
>>If the crack can let water in then it would let it out again under the pressure of compression, not to mention combustion.<<
The water has much more time to enter the cylinder than it has to
It sounds like the engine was spinning failrly fast to cause this much damage.
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The obvious question here is, what were the driving conditions and noises etc immediately prior to the failure? i.e. did it fail on the move?
I'm guessing you didn't park it up at night, and then go to start it in the morning and this happened? Although if that did happen then that would be more likely to point to issues with over-fuelling and/or slipped belt.
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Engine spinning fairly fast, no known water about strongly suggests fueling issue.
Ask for written report from Saab specifying how they determine this water damge? I wouldnt mention over fuelling as a possibility yet. let them hang themselves first possibly?
Wheteher the over fuelling is a warranty claim, or worthy of a payment from saab depends on service history etc. Was there any warning? Over revving etc ?
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Perhaps a dodgy batch of fuel containing water.
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If the cars coming up for 5yrs old then it's going to be a battle geting SAAB to contribute towards the repair, even if it turns out to be caused by a fault.
The dealership have said the cause is water ingress, so on that basis surely it would be reasonable to make an insurance claim?
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Perhaps driven to hard because it was going in a couple of days,life is rubbish sometimes.
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Yes AB, the same thought occurred to me. Cruising how fast, in what gear? No offence hargma but did you, er, inadvertently blow it up?
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Have not seen this on a car but have seen several in bigger diesels (BR's V12 Valentas - awful engine).
The problem with them was coolant leaks into the exhaust. It NEVER (at least not this failure mechanism) caused a failure while running as the coolant just gets expelled with the exhaust and does not get a chance to build up. They always failed on start up when one of the 12 cylinders would have an exhaust valve open and fill with coolant. Press start and it bends the rod, which then falls out of the bore and usually came through the side on the next revolution (fabled leg out of bed!). Don't remember seeing one with valve damage as while it was running the valvegear was moving in "tune" with the pistons. If the piston did not drop out of the bore the bend in the rod usually meant it would not reach the valves. You did find all the coolant in the sump with the oil because the head would be lifted slightly with the impact (one head per cylinder on these).
If it failed at speed it would have to be a fairly dramatic coolant leak. Valve damage may indicate another cause.
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If it failed at speed it would have to be a fairly dramatic coolant leak. Valve damage may indicate another cause.
That's why I am thinking jumped cambelt - that would bend valves.
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>>(BR's V12 Valentas - awful engine).
Hence why most HSTs are (were? are any left in the fleets still fitted with Valentas?) left ticking over all night on the depot, thus avoiding the start-up danger.
Which is fine unless you happen to live a few hundred yards downstream of such a depot!! Ah, the aroma of diesel fumes of a summer evening....
Number_Cruncher
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Thanks everyone for their input. A few answers - full Saab service history, 57K miles in just under 5 years, usual pattern of use has been daily pootling around town by my wife, then twice monthly long journeys up and down the motorways usually doing the 60-90mph pattern of the habitual outside lane hog. On the evening in question, I'd done almost 2 hours non-stop over A roads in Derbyshire across to Chesterfield then down the M1. I had filled up with diesel just prior to Chesterfield, no water on the road or motorway, no rain either, then the engine just stopped after about an hour cruising at 80-90 down the motorway. No noise or fuss, it just stopped running and I rolled over to the hard shoulder without problems. Was I driving it too hard? No harder than usual!
The various comments have confirmed what I feared - a) unclear without a thorough independent investigation what caused the issue b) even if I went to the trouble of an investigation, Saab would be unlikely to make a substantial contribution to the cost of repair, given the age of the car c) it's just one of those things that happens occasionally, even on reasonable quality cars like Saabs which you expect to be able to go to 200K miles without issues. I did ring my insurance, but unless I chose to corroborate Saab's water ingestion theory by swearing that the engine failed after I forded deep water, they of course won't cover the cost.
Current next steps are that Saab are looking for a second-hand engine that they are prepared to warranty post-installation (key to them then honouring the trade-in). For those that are interested, I will update this forum when there's news on this. Thanks everyone for their help.
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Hadn't been "chipped",had it??
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