My 51000 mile '02 Citroen C5 HDI 110 Auto has, in the last 2000 miles, developed a thirst for coolant - about a litre in 250 - 300 miles. The header tank remains under significant pressure long after the engine and coolant have cooled - on releasing the pressure cap first thing in the morning (-4 degrees C) the water level rose in the header tank by about 2 inches! The engine is also rougher than previously, particularly noticeable when stopped against the brakes and in gear. My local Citroen dealership has ben unable to identify a leak, nor have I. The logical conclusion appears to be head gasket failure, but Citroen claim this is an unheard of failure at this mileage . . . .anyone have any suggestions or comments on this?
{slight tweak to header to incorperate drop down menu that wasn't available when this question was first posted - DD}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 12/02/2008 at 10:41
|
Hi
I think its most likely to be the water pump if no leaks can be detected from any pipes. I changed mine at 70,000 along with the timing belt and it was showing early signs of failure.
|
I suspect you may have a HG blown. The rise in coolant level is due to combustion gas which is in the cooling system and under pressure. When you undo the cap it can expand - increasing the level in the bottle.
Your garage should be able to do some simple tests to check for HG failure.
|
Get your garage to perform a 'sniffer test' to check for combustion gases in the expansion tank. If combustion gases are present then it's likely the HG is on it's way out. Also run the engine for a few minutes with the coolant cap off- if you see bubbles and the water rising fairly quickly, then it's further likely that the HG is failing. HG failures seem much rarer on the HDi engines than the old 1.9XUD lump, but are nevertheless not unheard of.
Martin
|
I've got exactly the same problem! Car has only done 67,000 miles. It's been back to the dealer twice since November (2 weeks off road) They replaced the water pump (+timing belt) first time round - no difference. Then they changed the radiator and thermostat - said the rad was blocked because Cit had put the wrong strength anti freeze in at the factory and it had crystalised (!!) Still no difference.
It loses a header tank of coolant about every 200 miles. Even when cold there is a fair bit of pressure in the tank (when hot it would blow your head off) Yet the dealer is adamant that there is not a head gasket problem. They even accused me of overfilling the tank. Apparently you should only top up the coolant by first removing the plastic shrouds above the tank and the correct max level is to the 'seam' in the header tank. Bet you didn't know that!
They cleaned the entire engine bay to make dead sure there are no leaks - but still I'm getting the tell tale marks of coolant being sprayed over the timing covers.
So far it's cost me around £700 and no improvement.
I'm not sure if I should keep on topping up once a week and hope it gets no worse or get the head lifted before I do more expensive damage. My worry is that if I force the dealer into lifting the head he will either botch it or only provide a temporary cure.
There are absolutely no signs of steam in the exhaust or contamination to the oil and the engine runs as sweetly as you could wish for.
I suspect that the water pump seals are being blown out by the excess pressure - if so, my new pump won't last long!
I've also got a feeling that the coolant loss is not consistent - ie rather than the level dropping gradually over (say) 200 miles I think it just suddenly dumps the whole tankful at the drop of a hat!
If you get any further with this - do let me know!
Graeme
|
Graeme,
Pressure in the cooling system when the car is cold is a sure fire indicator of HG failure - I find it hard to believe the dealer has changed all those other things.... Perhaps try taking it to an independent - after all, head gaskets are not something main dealers have to deal with on new cars! ON the upside in more naieve days I ran a BX TD for nearly 70k pressurising the cooling system - hardly used any water though. A couple of other tests: 1. Remove the cap (engine cold) to release the pressure then start the engine and run it for a minute or so - now check to see if there is pressure in the system. 2. Run the engine with the cap off (best if it's cold ish so you don't scald yourself) and look into the header tank. A steady stream of bubbles coming up - increasing if you rev the engine - is a sure sign of HG failure.
On the old XUD HG failure was almost always combustion to cooling system, leading to pressurising. They also fail at the oil gallery feed end , which results in oil to outside - that was the end of my first Xantia!
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
|
HG sounds like the most likely culprit (apart maybe from the remote possibility of a porous head) but the dealer I took it to is very highly regarded (one of HJ's 'good garages') and for a start I thought I was in good hands. Yet the more I see them do the less impressed I become!
My worry is that either a Cit dealer or an independent botches the HG job and leaves me with some new faults. At the moment the car runs like a jewel........
I'll have a go at running the engine with the cap off. I haven't actually tried this because with the header tank being translucent I think I would probably have seen bubbles.
I've also got this odd feeling that the loss is intermittent - in other words it only decides to throw out coolant under certain conditions - rather than a steady loss day by day. Quite often I'll check the header tank after a journey and it's bone dry - then for no apparent reason it's wet all over and the characteristic smell of hot anti-freeze can be felt as you walk round the front of the car!
Graeme
|
Hi Graeme,
Try buying a new header tank cap as the seals and spring located within these can perish, i have spent the last 2 days on my own c5 which was displaying simillar problems. The head gaskets on the c5 hdi engine very rarely give any trouble but a faulty cap can cause similar symptoms. The caps are about $ 2.50 to buy and its certainly worth a try as it worked on mine after causing me much worry. A simple sniffer test will give you a definate result with regard to your head gasket, and my advise would be to first fit a new cap and if the problem persists get the sniffer test done, if its not the head then it has to be an air lock, water pump or thermostat / housing leak. these are all problems that can be fixed by an independent for less than 100 pounds.
|
|
|
|
I had those exact symptoms on my 48k mile 206 2.0 HDi, blowing water out of expansion tank. The rad hoses were also rock solid after a short run, the headgasket was pressurising the cooling system.
Unheard fo at this mileage? Thats what everyone said to me too! Utter rubbish!!
When I got the head off, it was well warped, had to have 8 thou off it. Also there were high lots of grooves in the head were the high pressure gas had been escaping.
If the water pump had failed, there wouldnt be pressure in the system.....
I'd get the head off before you cause even more damage :-)
|
That's ominous, Ross!
Did the head skim and new gasket fix the problem permanently? I'd be worried that the same thing would happen again!
Graeme
|
|
As I said in my first post on this thread, it really does sound like the HG. Don't procrastinate - more damage will be done. Get it checked - any half-competent mechanic will deliver the news in 15mins. You don't need hundreds of pounds of parts fitting first!
|
My 306 TD (XUD lump) ran for about 7k miles with the engine pressurising the cooling system. To start with, the car was using about a pint per week of coolant and as the problem progressed, I found that I was topping up by well over a litre per week. Driving home from work one chilly winter's evening, the head gasket failed completely (temp gauge in the red and steam everywhere) and when I tried to top up the header tank, the coolant just blew straight out of the top of the tank as soon as the engine was switched on. Hence leaving it as it is is just delaying the inevitable and you're risking further damage.
Martin
|
|
|
|
Yes it did, it was fine afterwards. It was a big job though, I did it myself (Even though it was still under warranty) as nobody believed it was the headgasket. I didn't think the head was warped initially, I just took it for a precautionary skim, when I arrived to pick it up the machinist said how much he had to take off and I was shocked!
Some pics of the job, before and after pics of the head can be found here:
smg.photobucket.com/albums/v727/ross2482/206%20HDi.../
The only symptom was pressurising of the cooling system......
|
Thanks for all the great advice everyone (although I wasn't OP!) I think I'll need to bite the bullet and get it done before more damage is done.
Graeme
|
Thanks, everyone, for the help on this. I will book the C5 in for a sniffer test and posibly a HG replacement - the comprehensive responses are strongly indicative of a blowing gasket, if not fully conclusive. The benefit of taking it to a Citroen main dealer? - possible goodwill contribution from Citroen (out of the question if the work is carried out by an independent) and a full 12 month warranty on their work and parts . . . but apparently I will be looking at the thick end of £600, plus some for Gordon B!
Thanks for all your contributions!
|
|
|
I now have the same problem! First symptom was smell of coolant in cabin typical of a heater matrix leak when I checked the coolant level I noticed very high pressure in the expansion tank but wasn't sure, I added a bottle of 'stuff' to cure a leaking matrix. It seemed to do the job initially. A few days later it was clear that that coolant had been forced out of the header tank after an 80 mile run. Recently the car has been rough on start-up. (130k mile 110 hdi)
What was the outcome on both cases discusssed here?
could it be something more simple, a faulty thermostat?
Thanks for any help
|
It's most likely the head gasket. Check:
1. Take the cap off cold - is there a release of pressure
2. Refit cap and start engine, run for about 1 minute, turn off and remove cap. Is there a release of pressure?
3. Restart engine with cap off and look into header tank - are there lots of little bubbles rising into it?
If the answer to any of the 3 above is yes, then 99% for sure the HG has gone.
|
After some investigation I think it can only be the headgasket though I have not seen any little bubbles coming. I have decided not to waste any more time or money and am going through the very painful process of buying a new (to me) car.
I have always wanted a 330d (see post over two years old) and am taking this opportunity to get one (03,04 e46 204bhp sport with some spec). Am I mad?? newer cars don't seem to have a feeling of quality anymore eg 1 year old jetta sport 140 tdi feels much inferior to swmbo 05 Bora 130 highline, standard spec levels aren't great there seems to be evidence of cost cutting that can be seen, so maybe plenty where you can't see it?
The e46 330d got nothing but praise at the time so it still has to be a good car??
do I take the plunge????
|
I traded in my early C5 for a 2006 ex Citroen management VTR last July. It's never been back to the dealership for a single thing and I've now done 18,000 miles (it had done 10,000 when I got it) And not one single drop of coolant has been used!
Good luck!
Graeme
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
