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Tue 26 Mar 2002 12:33

Very Old Land Rovers - Rob Cook

I am looking to buy a Series I or II landy, to use as a "utility" vehicle.
No more than a £1000, anything I should look out for when inspecting them.

I imagine a bit of chassis welding will always crop up, is this a difficult thing to get done?

Any help/advice appreciated

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 13:09

Re: Very Old Land Rovers - Andy

Inspect the chassis very carefully before you buy as chassis replacement is very expensive (galvanised chassis about £800-900 plus about a weeks labour for fitting it). Welding is an option, but corrosion can spread rapidly through the box-sections once it starts. An annual dose of waxoyl is a good idea.

Also check the bulkhead as this area is prone to corrosion.

Check it doesn't jump out of gear on over-run.

Check that axle oil isn't leaking into the brake drums as seals are expensive to replace.

Make sure the seal between the gearbox and transfer box is sound, otherwise all the oil from the gear box drains into the transfer box and after a while will contaminate the hanbrake which works on the axle. This is also an expensive job.

Best of luck.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 13:11

Re: Very Old Land Rovers - David W

Rob,

There is so much to tell! They often say the S.IIa is the best balance betwen a tax-exempt classic and a useable vehicle.

Chassis sections are cheap to buy and easy to fit for a decent welder. Perhaps most important is to carefully check the bulkhead, serious rust (perhaps hidden with filler or bodged on repairs) here around the hinges and above the footwell area is time consuming to repair.

Everything else bolts on really, and spares are freely available as well as quite cheap. Do beware even the "on-the-road" example with an MOT can be a long term rolling restoration. When I bought mine with a few weks MOT remaining but a blown engine it still also needed.....

Wheel bearings and seals, half-shafts, brake drums/shoes plus cylinders/pipes/hoses. Steering box, alternator, water pump, complete transmission oils change. Then steering joints, body seals, gaiters, misc fixings, battery, lights re-wiring and many many more *little* jobs.

And bear in mind this vehicle was on the road and in daily use until the engine blew.

Search the web and there are dozens of excellent Land Rover sites that will gives hours of reading.

Just one with an overview of buying an old one is..

www.geocities.com/bayourovers/purchase.html>www.geocities.com/bayourovers/purchase.html .

It's a great long single page with images so may be slow to load, worth the wait.

David

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 13:20

Re: Very Old Land Rovers - Graham

Try: lrenthusiastforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi when it gets back on-line. If you are broad minded also try: pub88.ezboard.com/boffroaderrantpage . Be nice and you'll get all the info you could ever want!!

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 13:22

Re: Very Old Land Rovers - Dave

Not the same thing but I know where you can get hold of a Daihatsu Fourtrack for a bit less than your grand.

Not quite so sexy, of course.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 13:48

Re: Very Old Land Rovers - Graham

heretic

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:09

more heresy - Darcy Kitchin

Reality check chaps. If you want to travel noisily, slowly with bits dropping off, in a car where the panels fit badly and spares are plentiful and cheap, yet may surprise you with needing sudden welding, get a 2CV. The ride will be heaps (no pun intended) better and you'll have money left over for a weekend break for 2.

Land Rovers, who needs 'em?

Sorry David W et al.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:12

Re: more heresy - Andrew Barnes

A 4WD 2CV would be much better.

Andrew

>
> Reality check chaps. If you want to travel noisily, slowly
> with bits dropping off, in a car where the panels fit badly
> and spares are plentiful and cheap, yet may surprise you with
> needing sudden welding, get a 2CV. The ride will be heaps (no
> pun intended) better and you'll have money left over for a
> weekend break for 2.
>
> Land Rovers, who needs 'em?
>
> Sorry David W et al.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:24

Re: more heresy - Darcy Kitchin

They did make 2 models of 4WD 2CV, the engine, drivetrain and front suspension arms apparently fit the rear of the chassis quite well. You swap the crown wheel in the diff of the rear engine, link the gearboxes with some hairy linkage and away you go. Knackers the boot space though.

The second model was more of a laugh. If was built for the French fire service and was double-ended so the forest pompiers could leave the scene quickly by clamping the steering, swapping ends and nailing it down the track. Don't know what the braking arrangements were.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:34

Re: more heresy - Andrew Barnes

There is a guy still making conversions.

Andrew

Darcy Kitchin wrote:
>
>
>
> They did make 2 models of 4WD 2CV, the engine, drivetrain and
> front suspension arms apparently fit the rear of the chassis
> quite well. You swap the crown wheel in the diff of the rear
> engine, link the gearboxes with some hairy linkage and away
> you go. Knackers the boot space though.
>
> The second model was more of a laugh. If was built for the
> French fire service and was double-ended so the forest
> pompiers could leave the scene quickly by clamping the
> steering, swapping ends and nailing it down the track. Don't
> know what the braking arrangements were.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 15:13

Re: more heresy & Cits - David Millar

Don't forget the 4WD Mehari which was also a series production by Citroen. As for the 2CV itself, I believe the only single-engined 4WD versions were conversions either carried out by the makers of the kit (name escapes me) or as a self-build job. New chassis for the 2CV are probably a bit cheaper than for a Land-Rover, the conversion cost around £2500 for the kit in the 70s but you could drive a 2CV just about anywhere in the world in 2WD as many of us ex-owners discovered. Extreme cold can be a tricky for that ancient twin-pot system and it would need a lot of preparation for fording but I suspect it would be easier to build a raft and float it across most rivers any way.

Anyone interested in offbeat French 4WDs should not forget the AX 4WD, the Renault 4s, the Teilhol cars and pickups based on the 2CV/AX, the Dangel converted Peugeot 504s, and the 4WD Visa diesel conversion I saw at the Paris Agricultural Show in the 80s--they even did a pickup Visa with a huge load bay. Some of these conversion kits are still available new if you really want to look wacky down at Sainsburys.

David

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:22

Re: more heresy - Richard Hall

Go for 4 cylinder petrol rather than diesel, unless you are planning to do a lot of miles and fuel cost is a major consideration. They are quieter, easier to start from cold, less underpowered, less likely to put a conrod through the side of the block, and you'll probably find a much nicer vehicle for the same money. 6 cylinder petrols are best avoided these days - parts availability is patchy and overheating common.

Note to all the Backroom diesel fans - this is not intended as criticism of diesels in general, but specific to the 2286cc Land Rover diesel, which is a deeply ancient design and not nearly as robust as Land Rover's reputation suggests.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 14:38

Re: more heresy - Dave

Graham wrote: "heretic"

LOL!

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 16:24

Old Land Rover faults - David W

Not that I want to fight the corner too hard but...

Andy,
Would hate someone to be put off LRs with the thought any rust needs a £1000 chassis job. A new chassis is one way but it is an expensive once in a lifetime restoration option, not really the stuff of sub £1000 runabouts. I have a 30+ year old chassis here which has never been touched bar a couple of rough plates on the front spring hangers. It needs these doing to a better standard but, together with the rear crossmember it requires, the total price should be only £150 to get it good for many more years.

Graham,
Right pain the LRE forum being off, I was just in the middle of something.

Darcy,
Ah but remember the worse the old car the more desireable it is. The Land Rover is a little like a basic 1940s car to drive, but it can still pull 4 tons at haymaking time.

Andrew B & Darcy (again),
2CV? No comparison. Even a 4WD 2CV is still a bean can* on wheels, a Land Rover is built like a .....well Land Rover. *Ever tried to fit stereo speakers in a 2CV? Every panel to think you can cut a hole in to recess the speakers is in fact the outer body with carpet stuck on it. The inside is the outside!

Richard,
Fair comment on the diesel thing. A diesel will often sell more quickly and fetch more, hence less for your money. Petrols seem to have been looked after better as well, there are some right doggy diesels about. The 2286 diesel is an old design but not as bad as it appears. Most have suffered 30 years of abuse...cheap oil not changed from one year to the next etc etc ..... in part it is this that makes them seem terrible. A properly rebuilt one from Turner Engineering with up to date machining should last a lifetime (costs £1000 though).

Dave,
Dave, Dave, Dave, Dave.....

Me, sand between my.....errr toes (?), never.

David

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 16:47

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Graham

Before we had children we id have a 2CV, and a lot of fun it was too. But it was very flimsey, and I wouldn't like to put my kids in one now. Mind you the landy is just the opposite, big steel chassis - no crumple zones here matey!

I paid in the region of £2000 for my Series III, Air Portable (otherwise known as a Light Weight). Tremendous fun and I couldn't recommend it highly enough - for what it is. By which I mean it ain't no motorway cruiser but off road fun it is brillliant fun.

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 10:59

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Andy

Graham

I agree a lightweight is a lot of fun, mine is circa 1983 and has only needed a small amout of welding on one of the outrigers. Also cheap to run on LPG.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 23:32

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Rob Cook

Fair points, and thanks for all the advice.

As I currently drive an A6 and a MKIV Supra, and have just spent £500 on a back box for the Sup, I need an antedote to all this hi-spec shenanigans.
Hang on, will I need to learn to double de-clutch?

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 07:28

Re: Old Land Rover faults - David W

Rob,

Yes you'll need DDC skills for the pre series 3 models but it is no problem in such a slow vehicle.

Sounds like you're just the chap for one.

For a bit of fun a ragtop series one with a later petrol engine and some decent sized wheels/tyres looks the part.

David

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 20:35

Re: Old Land Rover faults - richard turpin

I had a series 1. It only had 2 wheel drive and the engine was pretty worn but I sold it for £700 to give you a rough idea on price.
It was fun to own. Brilliant in summer. Easy to fix. Rubbish to drive on the road and very slow. Don't pay extra for a hardtop, it's ultra noisy and taking the canvas "tilt" off is easier than doing all the bolts.

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 22:13

Re: Old Land Rover faults - John S

Richard

Crikey, one of the few 2WD drive LRs ever made! I've seen photos of what I believe was just one small batch as a trial. Never repeated.

Being pedantic, this blew a small hole in the boast 'we've only ever made 4WD vehicles' in an advert a few years back!

Has DW ever seen one of these rare beasts?

Regards

John

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 22:22

Re: Old Land Rover faults - David W

The 2WDs are frequently talked about and shown in "all about Land Rovers" type articles in the magazines but I've never been near one.

David

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Tue 26 Mar 2002 23:27

Re: Old Land Rover faults - alvin booth

Only drove a land Rover once and that was in the 50s. One thing I remember of them.
The headlights were set close together which was a disadvantage to the Military Police. When we were on leave from up country we used to automatically head to the out of bounds areas in Singapore. The MPs would patrol these areas at night in their LRs looking for us. When you saw headlights close together heading down a narrow alleyway towards you it was time to do a runner. I always believe they saved me and another lad when we had strayed late at night into a Asian only area and were surrounded by a crowd of men after our blood.. A pair of close together headlights swung into this alleyway and roared towards us....everyone including our assailants did a runner and we got away unscathed.
The only time I drove one was a week before I came home and was given a job of driving the CO out to meet a platoon coming off patrol in north malaya We came to a river and I stopped. he looked inquisitively at me, " dont think it will get across that Sir" He simply waved me on... **** I thought, wer'e going to be swimming. I was unaware of what these motors could do and was amazed. It went across the river OK but the other side was a steep red clay bank which I thought was impossible to scale. The Land Rover simply blasted up this bank side with me expecting that it would topple over backward. The CO simply held on to the windscreen as we went up as if he was holding on to a horses reins. Many of these LRs had been waterproofed by the MT to enter
deep water so perhaps this was one. I would think that the majority of people who drive these vehicles never realise just what they are capable of and probably never will. I certainly didn't until then....
alvin

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 08:19

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Dwight Van Driver

David

Your letting Rob down gently. He isn't going to get anything worthwhile for £1000
is he. Up to four for something worthwhile according to LRO Mag adverts. Unless of course your going to take him under your wing and give reconstruction tutorials at the School in the Fens?

Rgds

DVD

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 09:39

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Graham

Mmm well I've already said I paid 2000 for mine, and I have no complaints.

I would suggest that you keep in mind what you are buying. It aint a "car".

My son and daughter were talking about when they get a motorcycle. When my wife got off the ceiling I suggested the Landy instead of another bike, so she immediatley agreed. As a "motorcyle" it is pretty draught free and warm. Compared with a modern car - well it doesn't really. But then this last week end I went for a jolly in it and had such a good time. I was trying to find it's limits. After 3 mnths I still can't. I ended up with grass in the NATO tow hitch at the rear but she never faulterd once. It's a four wheeled version of trail or even trials biking. And at 2 grand? what does a football season ticket cost? or smoking 40 fags a day (£3285 by my reckoning) and if you dont like it you can sell it for what you paid for it. Try that with a new car.

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 09:50

Re: Old Land Rover faults - David W

DVD,

Graham sums up the finances nicely, have some fun and if you don't like it get your money back. Win- win as they say.

The one I've been fiddling with for the past 18mths will perhaps stand £1200 and would easily sell for more. Compare that with an old car "restoration" where they end up being worth about half the cost of repairs. Not knocking classic car ownership, just a benchmark to go by.

Prices are all over the shop and very much folks asking what they think they can get.

Very roughly.....

£200..Non running or non-MOT project. Could take £1000 to get on the road.
£750..A useable MOTd runner that usually needs lots of ongoing future work.
£1500..Starting to get reasonable, in fact if you catch a buyer desparate to sell some excellent examples for this money.
£2000..Should be guaranteed something very reasonable for this.
£2500+..Anything over this should be really special.
£3000+..Getting silly in my opinion. Often a £2000 LR with new seats and paint.

You can argue any of these prices a few hundred either way but they are a fair guide.

David

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 11:08

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Alyn Beattie

Hi All

I go away for a few days and miss the best thread for ages.

DW's price list is about right. Here in South Wales you can get a pretty decent Series 111 petrol 88" for under £1200. Truck cab versions even cheaper.
I have a petrol Station wagon and a diesel hardtop. The hardtop is more economical on the road, but for towing the petrol beats it hands down. Both are fitted with overdrive, a nessessity if you are going to do any mileage at all.

Yes you spend time working on them but they are fun and are also a serious workhorse when the need arises.

Going to look at the "remains" of a Series 1 this weekend. A complete rebuild project which will require a brand new chassis. The old girl is a one owner and has been parked outside a barn on the farm it spent it's working life. Apparently various bits have disappeared over the years and used for other things. One of the doors is blocking a hole in a hedge.

I have tried to resist the urge to go and look at it, but as I told the wife looking will do no harm. It's coming home with it that may cause the problem.

Oh well making your own supper is not the end of the world is it.

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 12:56

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Graham

So Alyn how many have you got already?

Being new to this Landy owning business there are several things that stand out. These include: if you see see someone driving a Landy he'll have two more at home! and also they are friendly and can always offer advice if asked. Oh and they wave, it's like biking used to be when I started 20 yrs ago. Before the Japanese onslaught.

I get the impression that is the difference between the Landy's and the Toyota is like the difference between a Harley and a Honda. And I'm not critisising either. I've had many Jap bikes and very efficient they were too, but cold an unemotional. Maybe a head and heart thing.

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 13:25

Re: Old Land Rover faults - Alyn Beattie

Only the 2 mentioned. (maybe 3 this time next week)

I think there are people on this site who have more than me.

DW is it only the one you have?

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 13:41

Re: Old Land Rover faults - David W

Alyn,

I'm trying only to have one but a survey of the bits reveals a complete chassis (with V5), body, hardtop, gearbox, axles, bulkhead,petrol engine, diesel engine, half a diesel engine and old ice cream tubs full of nuts and bolts.....you know how it is!

David

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 14:37

2CV - 4WD conversions - Chad.R

Andrew, Darcy and the 4WD 2CV crew,

Louis Barber (Independent Citroen Specialist) in Great Missenden, Bucks does all sorts of conversions for 2CV's, including 4WD versions.

How do I know? - because I take the trusted Xantia to him for servicing every 6K and there's always half a dozen 2CV's in various states of "undress".

( Also remember an edition of Top gear about 10 years ago, before my Citroen ownership days, when they actually had a feature about him and his wacky 2CV's.)

Chad.R

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Wed 27 Mar 2002 15:45

Re: 2CV - 4WD conversions - David Millar

Interesting. I see too that his conversion is a continuation of the Voisin kits that cost around £2,500 in the early 80s. I suppose his £4,000 or so is not bad considering inflation and if they are genuinely better made. However, I would hope still to pick up a factory Mehari 4x4 for not much more. But if his are better made.........oh dear I know where there is a barn-stored Mehari ripe for rescue and improvement. Looks like trouble ahead. At least 2CVs take up less space than Landies.

David

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