Oh dear - I've been adding a dash of antifreeze to the washer bottle for the last 15 winters....
Never noticed any damage to the paintwork though
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I too didn't realise it could damage paintwork. they spray it quite liberally on planes to remove ice.
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Not only paint but rubber seals round windscreens.
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Not even in diluted form?
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>>Never noticed any damage to the paintwork though>>
Perhaps because there's none left...:-))
Seriously, you must have got away with it because it will be diluted, but neat antifreeze and paintwork are certainly not compatible.
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I too didn't realise it could damage paintwork. they spray it quite liberally on planes to remove ice.
The difference is that planes are painted with a far more durable and resistant (and expensive) polyurethane finish than that used on cars.
Oz (as was)
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why do i get the feeling that some people may possibly be confusing "deicing fluid" for external use with "antifreeze" for use as a coolant?
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Technically they spray planes with a de-icer not an antifreeze. The spray forms a light gel to adhere for a while to stop the plane icing up again if you take off within 10 mins of a de-ice and you are sat by the window over the wing you can spot the thin layer sliding off the wing. Regards Peter
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Well, technically coolant is an antifreeze due to the glycol in it, but the proper name is coolant or coolant concentrate.
In the olden days, coolant contained methanol, but I don't think they still make that for many reasons.
Washer fluid may or may not contain an antifreeze, usually one of several alcohols.
The man should have said an antifreeze screenwash.
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Technically they spray planes with a de-icer not an antifreeze. The spray forms a light gel to adhere for a while to stop the plane icing up again if you take off within 10 mins of a de-ice and you are sat by the window over the wing you can spot the thin layer sliding off the wing. Regards Peter
they (de-icer and anti freeze) are one and the same:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deicing_fluid
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.. they (de-icer and anti freeze) are one and the same: ..
jonathan{p}:
assuming that you can use wikipedia as a reliable source, then your first source says
"..Propylene glycol is used:
As a moisturizer in medicines, cosmetics, food, and tobacco products
As a medical and sexual lubricant (A.K.A. "personal lubricant") ...
Safety - The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has determined propylene glycol to be "generally recognized as safe" for use in food, cosmetics, and medicines. ...."
and the second source says:
The toxicity of deicing fluids is an environmental concern, and research is underway to find less toxic alternatives.
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jonathan{p}: assuming that you can use wikipedia as a reliable source,
I accept that wikipedia isn't the best source, I maybe should have referenced Dow chemicals who make the stuff.
The fact that it is safe for use in household products does not mean it is environmentally damaging, large amounts entering controlled watercourses has a devastating impact on aquatic life. This generally doesn't happen when it is personal lubricant form!
www.dow.com/aircraft/products/flightg.htm
pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff/7901scit5.html
see para 4
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... I maybe should have referenced Dow chemicals who make the stuff. ..
the point i was making was that propylene-glycol de-icers are ok, but coolant-antifreeze or deicers containing ethylene glycol need to be treated with care. coolant-antifreeze typically has many more other compounds which screenwash-antifreeze does not.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deicing_fluid
Propylene Glycol is more common due to the fact it is less toxic than ethylene glycol.
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Technically they spray planes with a de-icer not an antifreeze.
When I worked for Dunlop's aviation division (in the 1960s) they made electrically heated wing de-icers. Have these gone out of fashion?
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L\'escargot.
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People put diesel in petrol cars and vice versa, oil into water and vice versa, so what's a bit of anti-freeze in your washer bottle?
You don't need to be stupid to be reading the BR but it certainly helps!
;-)))))))
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We've had screenwash in the PAS this week as well.
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I always use screenwash concentrate, however if you look on the back of the bottle it states that it is ethelene glycol based. Ethelene glycol is the main component of antifreze.
Always wonderd if there is alot of differance other than the degreasing detergent and perfume that screenwash contains.
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I've got some unopened VW coolant somewhere in the garage: adding to the washer bottle might be a useful way to use it up rather than throw it in the municipal tip! If its ethylene glycol based, it will do just as well I hope.
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if I remember correctly (reading the back of a windscreen washer bottle isn't something I do frequently) you are warned against spilling it onto paintwork. Similarly, de-icer, the stuff you spray on your windscreen that is.
JH
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AA have more sense...
www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/seasonal/winter_moto...l
Windscreen washer fluid should be topped up and treated with a proprietary additive to reduce the chance of freezing in frosty weather. Don't use ordinary engine anti-freeze as it will damage paintwork.
Would you risk it? Most coolant says if splashed on paintwork rinse off immediately.
If it does, you can't complain, but if you use a screenwash, you can complain to the seller, maker, trading standards etc.. and get some recompense. You also would look an idiot as everyone would laugh and say what do you expect?
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I am adding my two pennyworth, for what it is worth, only because I was an industrial chemist before retiring although my information, now, may be out of date but still may be of some relevance.
What I do know, however, is that Ethylene Glycol 'Glycol' is the main active ingredient of Antifreeze or engine coolant which together with additives is used in engines all year round to prevent freezing and thus possible damage to the engine. It is also kept in the engine all year round as the corrosion inhibitors present, do just that!
Aluminium engines may have other constitiuents to minimize corrosion in these engines.
Decades ago, when life was simpler, I believe that Methanol 'Wood Alcohol or Methyl Alcohol' was also a co-constituent of some cheaper engine Antifreeze solutions but the volatility of the latter really made the whole less efficient, thus Ethylene Glycol, solely replaced that mixture. Of course today it is not uncommon for most engines to contain a 1:1 v/v mixture of Antifreeze and water.
I would not imagine, for one minute, despite this contradicting what someone else has said above, that Ethylene Glycol would be used in car window de-icers as its effect on car paintwork would be pretty evident. One must remember that Ethylene Glycol has a boiling point in excess of 190 celcius which would mean that it would not evaporate readily from any surface onto which it was sprayed and would thus have considerably more time to react or soften/damage any paintwork. Instead, more volatile 'alcohols' such as Ethanol, Propanol and iso-Propanol would, I imagine, be used. Strangely, in my life as an analytical chemist, I never once bothered to analyse, by Gas Chromatography or IR techniques any of the, then, proprietary de-icing products!
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One maker appears to use up to 25% monoethylene glycol in screenwash, with other alcohols: www.wynns.uk.com/contextra/Documents/Winter%20(Super%20Concentrated)%20Screenwash%2045105.pdf
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Oldgit, you've got me in a bit of a panic now over those remarks about corrosion inhibition - do I need to get a special antifreeze for an aluminium block engine rather than the normal stuff?
I ask because I have a 1996 Suzuki Swift with the three cylinder 993cc aluminium block and I'm pretty sure it currently has ordinary antifreeze in it...
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MSDS good idea Nortones, have checked the same for my Halfords and this doesn't contain it, (I'd rather not use one that contains the the eylene glycol) Surprised how little active ingredients it does have though, won't be buying it again!
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Taken from the label on the 5 litre bottle of silver hook screen wash concentrate in my workshop:
Contains:
Ethelene Glycol
Isoprpyl alchol
Ethanol
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>>do I need to get a special antifreeze for an aluminium block engine rather than the normal stuff?>>
I've always understood that aluminium block engines require a specific type of anti-freeze.
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I've always understood that aluminium block engines require a specific type of anti-freeze.
Antifreeze to BS 6580 : 1992 is suitable for use in all types of engine.
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L\'escargot.
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Long ago before screenwasher additive was invented, the advice was always to put a tablespoon of meths in the washer bottle to prevent freezing.
Of course bottles were minute then, so a larger quantity would be needed nowadays.
Surely the point is whatever you use, it is very dilute? Neat meths is good for getting paint offf, and ethylene glycol attacks paint too, but in dilution it possibly doesn't .
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Antifreeze: use what your car manufacturer recommends. Recommendations do vary. MB recommend their own pH-neutral antifreeze; it matters because of the differences in materials used in the cooling system. In anticipation of those who don't like paying a premium price for manufacturer's own branded products, you can no doubt find an exact match for less money in the open market, but why bother when the difference in cost over a year is near negligible for this crucial stuff?
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Antifreeze: use what your car manufacturer recommends. Recommendations do vary. MB recommend their own pH-neutral antifreeze; it matters because of the differences in materials used in the cooling system.
I don't know about MB antifreeze but most car manufacturers branded antifreeze is likely to be to BS 6580 : 1992. Ford's certainly is. Look on the container or in the handbook.
--
L\'escargot.
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Oldgit, you've got me in a bit of a panic now over those remarks about corrosion inhibition - do I need to get a special antifreeze for an aluminium block engine rather than the normal stuff? I ask because I have a 1996 Suzuki Swift with the three cylinder 993cc aluminium block and I'm pretty sure it currently has ordinary antifreeze in it...
Don't panic, don't panic! I think, (almost certain) that coolant antifreezes sold today are 'universal' in that they are suitable for all types of engines. If in doubt refill with a suitable one. Again, if in doubt, read the label on the bottle, as they say or contact your local Suzuki dealer.
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One maker appears to use up to 25% monoethylene glycol in screenwash, with other alcohols: www.wynns.uk.com/contextra/Documents/Winter%20(Super%20Concentrated)%20Screenwash%2045105.pdf
I am truly surprised reading that document and finding that Ethylene Glycol is present at such a concentration although, admittedly when diluted according to the instructions would be less deleterious to a car's paintwork - must go outside now and check my Halford's product.
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The Halford's doesn't I already checked.
Also, the Halfords is £4 for 5 litres, of which only 300ml is ethanol, the rest is water, and a drop of a water softening detergent and dye and perfume. What a rip off. That's £12 per litre for ethanol. We but 25 litre barrels of it at work for £15. I shall be taking my flask to work from now on.
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........... ethanol. We but 25 litre barrels of it at work ........ I shall be taking my flask to work from now on.
Not so you can steal ethanol I hope.
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L\'escargot.
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No, so I can borrow it on long-term evaluation.
Seriously, we can help ourselves to such things as long as we pay or buy something of similar value and not claim it back. Old fashioned I know.
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Also, the Halfords is £4 for 5 litres, of which only 300ml is ethanol ......
My recently purchased 5l container of Halfords screenwash says it contains ethanol, but it doesn't say how much. However it does say that undiluted it will prevent freezing down to -15 degC.
Now ............ according to bazza in 2005 (tinyurl.com/ymnqo4) protection down to -15 degC requires a concentration of 30% ethanol, which is 1.5 litres in a 5 litre container.
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L\'escargot.
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>> Also, the Halfords is £4 for 5 litres, of which only >> 300ml is ethanol ...... My recently purchased 5l container of Halfords screenwash says it contains ethanol, but it doesn't say how much. However it does say that undiluted it will prevent freezing down to -15 degC. Now ............ according to bazza in 2005 (tinyurl.com/ymnqo4) protection down to -15 degC requires a concentration of 30% ethanol, which is 1.5 litres in a 5 litre container. -- L\'escargot.
Ah, but I would imagine that Ethanol is not the sole component contributing to the lowering of the freezing point of water. Perhaps there is, even, another dihydric alcohol present such as 1:2 Propylene Glycol etc. The truth is that I don't have the formulation for the product/s in question, neither do I have the means, now, of analysing such product, more's the pity.
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You can get the MSDS for all Halfords items on their website, this gives the percentage of each ingredient.
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Just had a look on the bottle of my favourite screenwash - Decosol Excel- and all it says is "contains industrial methylated spirits". Is this any different from "ordinary" meths? Where would one buy "industrial meths"?
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Phil
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Just had a look on the bottle of my favourite screenwash - Decosol Excel- and all it says is "contains industrial methylated spirits". Is this any different from "ordinary" meths? Where would one buy "industrial meths"? -- Phil
IMS or Industrial Methylated Spirits, is a clear 'water white' liquid and is essentially Ethyl Alcohol (Ethanol) with small quantities of water and more importantly the more toxic 'alcohol' Methanol, hence the term (Methylated). The latter, being toxic, would discourage anyone sensible from drinking it.
IMS is only available to industry and on industrial sites, where, it is usually under control of the Customs and Excise, but 'denatured' Methylated Spirits can be bought from some chemists where you will find that it is has a purple dye added and an obnoxious substance called Pyridine. Both these additives would deter anyone from drinking it as it would produce, I would imagine, near fatal results.
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"Both these additives would deter anyone from drinking it as it would produce, I would imagine, near fatal results."
But would it clean my screen? ;-)
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Phil
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I recall a story (true) of a doctor treating someone who had drunk industrialised alcohol (something like that but not 100% sure). Apparently it would render you blind quite easily.... the "cure" to flush to system that they had to hand (it being Christmas) was a bottle of whiskey. Said down and out happy to be told to drink the whiskey!
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"Both these additives would deter anyone from drinking it as it would produce, I would imagine, near fatal results." But would it clean my screen? ;-) -- Phil
Undoubtedly, yes, but why go to those lengths when you can buy well-proven OTC products? Don't forget that, invariably, you get the odour of these products entering the car after you've sprayed your windscreen. If you want to breath in denaturants such as Methanol (causes blindness in excess) and Pyridine (causes sterility and is carcinogenic, IIRC) then that is up to you!
Personally I cannot understand why people would want to experiment with home made products such as de-icers and coolant antifreeze when perfectly effective and well tried products are available, made to British Standards.
As I stated earlier, I had the opportunity, in my working life, to analyse and mimic practically any product available but I'd much rather buy products from well know manufacturers who had spent some money on R&D in developing such products.
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Thanks OG, Just asking out of curiosity really - think I will stick to Decosol - it's safer, it works, and at £3 for a bottle of concentrate which will last all winter "home brew" is just not worth the bother!
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Phil
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Really? I thought it was just there to stop the water freezing. I haven't bought any in ages, though there's half a bottle in the garage right now. You do get some funny looks from the girl behind the counter in Boots when you ask for it and they'll only sell very restricted quantities.
The best solution is to buy a Mk2 Escort which had the washer bottle over the exhaust!
JH
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What is "Surgical Spirit" then? methylated without the colour?
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"methylated spirit used in the practice of medicine (especially for cleansing the skin before injections or before surgery)" according to varius online dictionaries.
JH
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What is "Surgical Spirit" then? methylated without the colour?
Not far off, it seems - I forgot about that.
My bottle, in the bathroom and purchased from Boots, say it contains a mixture of Ethanol and Methanol but I believe it also contains some phenolic constituent and possible some Castor Oil.
Do a Google search for more info.
I do know, that if you leave some of the above out to evaporate a non-volatile residue is left!
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so Coke would do the job just as well then! :-)
JH
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Just to confuse even more, I drive a truck for a living. In the vehicle handbook it clearly states to ADD ANTIFREEZE to the screenwash bottle in winter to stop the contents of the bottle from freezing. when I get a mo' I'll have another peek and see if it says what strength solution to make and what type of antifreeze to use. For reference I drive a MAN tga 26.440. Eurocarparts sell a product called normfest frostex. This has a built in antifreeze and is supposed to be good to -70c.
Edited by dOrfL on 01/11/2012 at 08:21
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I do not believe what I am reading here.
When the sad day comes that I have to get another car, I will no doubt be told by the salesman that it has 20 useless gismos none of which make the car safer or more reliable or is of the least interest to me.
Here , .I have read thoroughly through dozens of impressively erudite posts and still am not absolutely clear what I should stick in the screen bottle to stop it freezing.. Do manufacturers have priorities which match the customer?
Cheers Spring
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And don't put ad blue in the washer bottle either as one of my drivers did or the front will look like a Christmas scene and smell of urea for days.
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