Been in an identical situation in Rochdale - drifted gently over a crossroads and fortunately avoided hitting anyone or anything!
Shortly afterwards I took a skid training course and learned how to threshold brake. Had I had the presence of mind at the time I would have switched off the ignition to kill the ABS system and restore normal braking.
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If it is loose snow then the snow building up infront of locked wheels offers more retardation than ABS so switching off the engine and braking or switching of when in gear and letting the clutch out can help, the latter allows you to brake the rear wheels independantly via the handbrake.
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Get some road salt and a shovel, also snow chains or similar. Common sense learnt from my father when we used to live just (20ft) off the A66 in North Yorkshire and getting snow was common (deepest I remember was 3ft in a night).
After this experience the OP/wife should not move any car off their drive in snow unless they have salted the road first. Weakness of ALB on snow is very well known and is not new. How would you feel if there was a child in place of the bollards next time - they do tend to play in the snow!
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Last winter in the only night of snow we had, I was stuck in a well-to-do housing estate built on the side of a hill, the only was to leave was via a straight steep hill that ended at the bottom in a T junction, or a curved hill which had a left tun at the bottom, but which also had a culdesac which could be used as a run off, I chose the latter, and got my Omega to the top, selected 1st gear (auto) and gingerly started down, the car went faster and I had to brake half way down while bending left, the ABS was stuck on full all the way down after that, it didn't speed up to much, and I was aligning to go up the run off which I did, and then had to reverse, when a pedestrian started to interfere and push my front end left. I was please with the ABS, as it allowed me to maintain steering control, I could have even hit a kerb or tree to avoid another car or person if I had chose to.
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ABS is little help on ice. I once "parked" a car with ABS ie all the brakes locked together, while still travelling at 5 mph. Let of the brakes and used the minimal steering to get to and use the kerb to stop.
My landrover is heavy, and heavy things tend to slide down slopes. I could have killed (deliberately) the taxi driver I once got behind in icy conditions as his car was an auto, in "drive" and was making progress down a hill with the brakes on the front and the rear ear wheels spinning, nicely polishing the ice for the following traffic (I suspect a propely set up auto wouldn't dream of doing this). Luckily I saw the hazard for what it was and got the following traffic to stop, before I crossed the difficult patch. While I had no disasters, I took it very gingerly and it was more like guiding a sledge than driving.
From experience, many drivers have no idea, a few do it about right, and stuff that overtakes my landrover I tend to meet again further down the road facing the wrong way.
If you get the chance, "play" in an empty car park and learn what your car can do. Even if you think you know, the practice is helpful.
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I had the misfortune of being saddled with a Daewoo Nubira as a temporary company car for 6 months, and I used to pull the ABS fuse out whenever it snowed. The ABS on this car was appalling, and it would trigger ridiculously early even in wet conditions - any moderate application of brakes would send the familiar high frequency pulsing up through the pedal. When it snowed, the system simply prevented the car from stopping at all.
I've driven several cars with ABS since, including the current Mondeo, which work perfectly well in snow (subject to obvious limitations), and allow you to stop safely using a little bit of sensitivity on the pedal. The Daewoo though was undriveable in these conditions unless the ABS was disabled. I've heard the same about some 90's Vauxhalls, which would make sense as there was a lot of parts sharing between the companies.
The OP's description of the long slide and collision and complete helplessness of the driver rang horrible bells. I never actually managed to hit anything in the Daewoo, but I came too close. It's a horrible feeling to get that pedal pulsing and absolutely no retardation.
Cheers
DP
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A farmer once gave me advice on driving a tractor down a steep slope and losing traction. He said you have to increase revs until the engine is again turning at a speed appropriate to the road speed. Too much engine braking will induce a slide.
If one of the wheels starts to turn backwards, jump off! That means the engine is going so slowly that a bit of grip on one wheel turns the other backwards through the differential.
But his best advice was - don't do it.
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Thanks for all the comments to date, the one that I think is the best, provided that one is capable of doing it reliably, is to switch off the ignition, thus disabling the anti-lock system. The problem being of course that there is a risk of locking the steering (due to the high stress situation and possibility of panic).
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"the one that I think is the best, provided that one is capable of doing it reliably, is to switch off the ignition" Absoutely not, the servo assistance won't work and braking will be extremely difficult.
The best option is as I described - choose a gear which enables engine braking to be used effectively
www.driversdomainuk.com/advanced/snow_and_fog.php
Braking
The key to success here is to use your power of observation, as any sudden unplanned braking, no matter how advanced your car is, will usually result in a skid if you are on pure snow. Should you need to brake harder than planned (i.e. you lock the wheels) remember to use a system called cadence braking whereby you release the footbrake when the wheels lock up and quickly reapply ? with the aim of trying to brake just above the locking point of the wheels and reducing speed as fast and as controlled as possible. This practice is usually not needed with cars equipped with ABS, however, as mentioned before, the sheer lack of grip may mean you will need to do this ? ABS or not!
Another good way of reducing speed in snow is to carefully engage a lower gear and use the compression of the engine to slow you down.
REMEMBER: At least triple the usual distance between your car and the one ahead.
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daveyjp makes the suggestion to use engine braking, but this is not good advice on a two-wheel drive car as any braking is spread over just two wheels not four.
When grip is so very low, the more wheels involved the better.
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daveyjp makes the suggestion to use engine braking, but this is not good advice on a two-wheel drive car as any braking is spread over just two wheels not four. When grip is so very low, the more wheels involved the better.
I think Davey is only suggesting engine braking as far as stopping the speed of the car from rising in the first place, not actually using it to decelerate. As such, I would agree with him.
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Correct Bazza - prevention is far better than cure. Use the gears to keep the speed at a manageable level then you don't need to use the brakes to slow until the last moment. It was the starting off in 2nd which lead to the problem the OP wife encountered.
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>> I think Davey is only suggesting engine braking as far as stopping the speed of the car from rising in the first place, not actually using it to decelerate. As such, I would agree with him.
Any braking, whether brakes or engine, can exceed a point where grip breaks away. The advice I remember from the days when I followed LandRover off-roading was to start in low gear and let the engine idle. If the car starts to accelerate you cannot slow it - you just have to keep your nerve and concentrate on very very gentle steering. Never touch the pedals.
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Disagree with daveyjp - on something very slippery you wouldn't notice the lack of servo assistance and it would be helpful. I found threshold braking really quite difficult as it required an extremely sensitive touch, but it was the only thing that worked.
Also, unless your servo is knackered, you should retain at least part assistance for some time as you're not pumping the brakes. And cadence braking doesn't work on ice, it's only if you're in a difficult situation and need to slow AND steer (ie, going into a corner a bit gung ho).
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I found threshold braking really quite difficult as it required an extremely sensitive touch, but it was the only thing that worked.
Which is probably more difficult in boots or heavy shoes they may well be used in such conditions.
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I took a skid course years ago, I've probably forgotten everything I learnt as I haven't had to use the skills taught to me, but driving a figure of 8 on opposite lock etc is immense fun and would recommend it to anyone.
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Aim low, expect nothing & dont be disappointed
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Three winters back in Buxton I stopped on a hill; my Passat with ABS etrc.then started sledging forward on the melting snow -which was very scary. No way I could stop accelerating and so I drove gently into the kerb- the snow cushioned the blow. I'd enough traction surpisingly to do a U turn and park very relieved in a side road. I hope my all seasons tyres perform better should the conditions arise again.
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I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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1995 Peugeot 405 with Bosch 2E ABS = lethal in the snow, I used to disconnect a sensor to shut down the system it was that bad.
2003 Peugeot 206 with a Teves ABS, EBD & EBA system = Doesn't care if there's snow down, just stops as if it was dry.
Just 8 years on from the 405 & ABS has come on leaps & bounds.
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The real challenge to driving in heavy snow of course is finding your car.
Where I live it is essential to carry a broom at this time of year.
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As mentioned above, two wheels in the gutter does provide some grip. Saved me more than once.in country... but no good in town due to parked cars:-(
madf
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was taught over 20 years ago to go down the edge of the road on undriven, unpacked snow and if there was a kerb drive slowly in 1st letting the engine revs slow you, not the brakes and use the friction of your tyre against the kerb provide some retardation
never had to do it since and hope i don't
although did admit on a recent post putting my car through a rhodedendron bush trying to get it up a snow covered slope 2 years ago........which seems to show me theory is one thing and practice another
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The real secret is to get rid of the snow - hence the suggestion about road salt and a shovel. It is the safest approach of all to the OPs problem.
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"From experience, many drivers have no idea, a few do it about right, and stuff that overtakes my landrover I tend to meet again further down the road facing the wrong way."
I overtook a landrover Defender in my Fiat Punto in snow conditions in scotland a few winters back.
Easy really as he had stuffed the Landrover into a stone wall on a bend and was standing there red faced looking at it.
Made me wonder whether modern cars with ABS can *outbrake* some 4X4s in certain on road weather conditions?
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Depends on how good the tyres & ABS system is.
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Regardless of how good your brakes tyres ABS TC etc all they can hope to do is prevent the wheels from rotating but not from sliding. Engine braking may prevent some runaway situations but this also depends on sufficient friction between the road surface and the tyre to effectively run the drive train in reverse.
The toboggan effect will happen even worse as the tread fills with snow/ice and you effectively have two ice covered surfaces sliding past each other. Once this point is reached all you can hope for is a soft landing. If there is any steering effect then weaving from side to side may kill some speed as you select the safest object to collide with. Chances are this will be at very low speed and so damage to anything other than the sacrificial parts of the car (bumpers wings etc) should be minimal.
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Regardless of how good your brakes tyres ABS TC etc all they can hope to do is prevent the
>>wheels from rotating but not from sliding. Engine braking may prevent some runaway situations
>>but this also depends on sufficient friction between the road surface and the tyre to effectively
>>run the drive train in reverse.
Exactly.
Winter tyres are the only thing that will improve the traction.
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