If they are comparible with the Prius in carbon terms then they are reasonably green at the point of use (though no more so that the afformentioned Astra diesel) though are rather black and sooty at the point of manufacture having a carbon footprint twice that of a conventional petrol or diesel car of a similar size.
Great PR for Honda, good PR for the Met and no doubt an atrocious deal for the tax payer.
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and not as economical as a diesel in the real world. Our office runs two.
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So where are the diesel hybrids? That's surely the next step, possibly also including a mechanical driveline that cuts in at , say, 45+ mph and when the battery is fully charged - to save fuel on motorway trips.
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The police forces aim is to prevent crime, bring perptrators to justice and promote an evironment in which everyone feels secure. Have I missed something here? no thought not.
The police are not here to protect the environment, their job is stated above, within the budget allocated to them. Assuming these Civics cost more than the cheapest alternative 'traditional' car to do the same job (Transporting 2 officers and prehapps a detainee or two), it is hard to see how the police are fufiling their job.
As have been said it will produce good publicity for the police, but it won't be good publicity as far as crime goes. People do not think 'Oh I like the green police, I have more confidence in them doing their job'. Crime will fall when people when people think there are more police on the street, not a greener police force.
It is not the police force's job to save the environment. That job falls to the chancellor. If he altered tax rates so I beleived that the police's job was fufiled by buying these Civics I would have no problem with the police's actions. However I very much doubt that this condition is met.
However as Pugugly says his office has 2 so prehapps they do offer competitivly priced transport compaired with other options? - What do other people think?
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Traditionally many VM's have tried to get the police into their new models. The police tend to build up miles very quicly and use the vehicles hard - so its a good test bed for new models. I bet Honda are very keen to have their hybrids used in this way and I suspect they would have offered a very good deal. So long as the cars do the basic job of transport then I don't see a problem.
As to all the arguments for/against hybrid vehicles, well I think we should give credit to the manufacturers for developing these vehicles and we need to understand that these are 'early days' for hybrid technology. Its good to see new ideas and new technologies being brought to market. Some will succeed and others fail. I rather see something like a Prius on the road than a 4x4 with ladder-frame chassis and recirculating-ball steering.
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What do other people think?
I think the government (and the Met is an extension there of) should realsie what most people already know, that running a Prius or Civic hybrid is a hyprocritical attempt to be percived as enviromentally friendly compared to the petrol diesel alternatives because of the cost of manufacture of these hybrids in carbon terms.
OK economies of scale would be a factor if every other car on the road was one of these however they would still be no more economical than a 1.4 Civic or a D4D Yaris.
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I think it's probably good PR for Honda more than anything else. The Met will probably have got a huge discount in return for the cars being emblazoned with Honda info. It does say they're for the Safer Neighbourhood Teams (can be anything including police, specials, PCSOs and council community wardens, so not really for transporting prisoners or responding to emergencies) so they probably wont have to be liveried in the traditional police way.
"Crime will fall when people think there are more police on the street, not a greener police force."
That's what it's about though - helping the team get around and be more visible in their neighbourhoods, and deter crime. At the moment, if there aren't free cars to go around, the officer/PCSO might use public transport or a bike to get to their beat (could be a long way away from their actual station) and then patrol it. This way, they get there quicker and can spend more time there, and the car is a visible indicator that they're in the area.
It's not the police force's job to save the environment, but why shouldn't they do their bit, eh? It's not my job to save the environment either, but I still recycle stuff and turn the office lights out and screens off when I'm the last to leave.
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It's not the police force's job to save the environment, but why shouldn't they do their bit, eh? >>
OK but despite perceptions the contrary is the case due to the cost of manufacture of these hybrids in carbon terms.
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After a nights sleep I think The points about it being good PR for honda are valid. It could well be the case that honda supplied these cars at a very good price thinking they will be able to sell many more cars above cost because of the good PR.
Aprilia's comments about the giving new technology a chance are good. The market for inovation and new technology is one of the most regulated, subsidiesed and distorted anywhere. This is due to muliple reasons which I won't go into. Governments intervene since the free market would not produce the efficent amount of inovation. If we cars like the prius are seen as early experimental models leading to technology one day where hybrid cars are cleaner over their life cycle than non-hybrid models surely it makes sense to promote them now. If we say a new technology is not competitive today and stop trying to make it commercally viable through tax/subsides we may lose a viable technology of tommorow.
Police officers should be working to a budget, not caring for the environment. The police should not be using money to make themselves greener compromising their objective. That is not to say that we should not all become more evironmentally aware. I have no objection to the police turning off unwanted lights and computers since it saves them money. Making police offercers more aware could thus save money complimenting their objectives.
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Plod will now be able to creep up silenty on crims without leaving the comfort of their vehicles - if they are on battery power!
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these vehicles are not funded in the usual manner...i.e. they are part funded from the Mayor of London, who is keen to show his green credentials... so from a police perspective they are getting a very good deal.
The tax payer is still paying of course, but via a different source.
If Ken Livingstone wasn't pushing it for his politics, it wouldn't be happening.
Traditionally police vehicles have been purchased at an amazingly cheap price and this is one of the reasons why Vauxhall has been at the fore for so long, they let the police have them dirt cheap.
The manufacturers that don't provide enormous discounts don't tend to get used (with a few exceptions like specialist traffic vehicles....e.g.Volvo).
The police vehicles that are used for pursuit/response type work (which will not be the Honda Hybrids as discussed above) have upgraded brakes/brake pads/ brake fluids/ sometimes suspensions etc, but generally not engines (although there have been exceptions like a Rover V8 in a long wheel base sherpa mini-bus... which eventually had to be governed down because it was too fast.... the 4.5 mpg wasn't too impressive either).
Most manufacturers find the police do things to their vehicles that no testing can ever replicate...Recent examples are BMW 530D's constantly blowing turbo hoses off, older Vauxhall Vectra SRi's having to have a sump guard for speed humps and a modification to the front air dam to allow more brake cooling, Vauxhall Omega 'area cars' & Ford Focus estate dog vans having to swap their steel wheels for alloys, again for brakes....
i could bore you even more if you wish
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Sofa Supd: So where are the diesel hybrids?
AFAIK, VW experimented with a diesel hybrid Golf (the "CityGolf") around the time the first model Prius was launched. The problem was that hauling the extra weight of the diesel engine drained the battery too quickly when running on electric power.
From Honda and Toyota's point of view, the primary markets for hybrids at present are Japan and the US, where diesel is less favoured. It makes commercial sense for them to concentrate on getting a single petrol-electric hybrid design right (and bought in high enough numbers to invoke economies of scale) before turning their attention to diesel hybrids.
If the Met running a fleet of Civic IMAs helps the development process, and they get the cars at a good price, all the better. I can't see how anyone loses out in the deal.
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Kensington & Chelsea community officers drive around in Priuses.
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all the Priuses have been swapped for Hondas......... because it was such a large order, which honda couldn't manage in one go, some of the Hondas are temporarily 2.2 diesel Civics until the hybrid ones are available...
they are all leased and if the last contract is the same as the new one, will get swapped every 6 months
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If the Met running a fleet of Civic IMAs helps the development process, and they get the cars at a good price, all the better. I can't see how anyone loses out in the deal.
Again, the planet loses out because they are no more effcicient at the point of use than other cars that have only 50% of their carbon footprint at the point of manufacture.
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The sherpa just had rubbish brakes and with it full up with police and all their equipment was overloaded. The manufacture told the Met this and subbsiquently voided all the waranties. The Met jsut said oh well and carried on.
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Plod will now be able to creep up silenty on crims without leaving the comfort of their vehicles - if they are on battery power!
And moonlight as milkmen on overtime, instead of sitting in their camera vans.
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Talking of green police, does anyone know how Avon and Somerset Police are getting on with their bioethanol cars?: snipurl.com/vq51 .
Biofuels are the preferable medium term solution IMHO. Why develop hybrids that have to carry around a tray full of heavy, expensive batteries when with minor modifications our current engine technology can run on renewable fuels? Perhaps Honda and Toyota have misjudged the rate at which biofuel usage will increase? Sounds like its taking off faster in the US than it is over here; for its green credentials but also to reduce dependency on Middle Eastern oil. Next years Indy 500 is to be run solely on bioethanol. This was posted a couple of months ago: snipurl.com/vq65 .
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So where are the diesel hybrids? >>
PSA are developing one in the 307 and C4 HDI Hybride, won't be on sale for a year or so yet, though.
What makes me fume is how Toyota/Lexus hybrids don't pay the Congestion Charge whereas similarly low or lower polluting conventional cars do. Why promote alternative technology if it's actually dirtier than the best diesels?
P.S. Guess what car Red Ken bought for his (partner's) private use? A Prius. So that's why they pay no CC.
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