Hi,
I have a legal problem, my old car that I sold about a month ago has been caught by a speed camera and is still registered in my name. It looks like the new owner did not register the car.
Trouble is, I know this person and am reluctant to pass on their identity unless I really have to. I cannot be sure it was them driving though. Does my responsibility to give details on who was driving end when the car no longer belongs to me? I am tempted to say nothing more than "I sold this car several weeks ago and now drive (reg.no of new car)".
Any advice greatly appreciated
Regards,
Sam
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Did you notify DVLC of the disposal? If not, why not?
You could reply on your suggested lines, maybe adding,"Obviously, I have no way of knowing who the current keeper is".
No need to supply your current car details, though.
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Sam,
Did you send off the sellers part of your old car's V5 document when you disposed of the car? If so then you have informed the DVLA that you no longer own the car. If you didnt then as far as the DVLA are concerned you still own the car and you will get whatever speeding and parking tickets the new owner racks up.
regards
Ian L.
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If you've sold the car and not told DVLA about the change in ownership using the V5 then you could also be liable to pay a fine. I can't remember, though, if there is a requirement on the form to tell the DVLA who you've sold the car to.
However, if you've told the DVLA that you're no longer the registered keeper, then your receipt of any fines associated with the car are administration errors.
As the car is not yours you cannot know who was driving it at a particular time. You should only need to say that you're no longer the registered keeper and were not driving the car when it was flashed.
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I recently sold my old car and the buyer failed to sign the V5 slip. I contacted the DVLA who told me just what the above messages have said, that unless they get signed notification of the new owner and owner details (address) the car is still yours - it's obvious really. I had to call the buyer up, go over to his house and get him to sign the slip. it's noteworthy that getting the V5 signed and completed at point of sale, and then posted by the seller is vital, you can be held liable for all and every fine, charge, ticket that the new 'owner' might be amassing unless you do this.
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You can send the V5 (blue part) with just your signature on it to the DVLA, and you will have fully discharged your (seller's) legal duty. The rest of the info is for the buyer to provide, and the seller cannot force the buyer to do that.
It would seem that the rules have changed slightly. In the old days it was up to the buyer to send the V5 in. Now it's up to the seller.
It is nonsense to say that the seller is liable for consequences of the buyer's failure to sign and complete the V5. Doesn't surprise me that the DVLA will tell you that it is, though.
Rob F
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Really, the DVLA just give you the legal line on this, whoever is on their record is the legal owner, whether you sold the car or not, whether it's scrapped or not - counts for nothing unless they no about it. It's vital to keep DVLA informed otherwise your vehicle can be used for all sorts of nasty purposes!
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Sam
If I recall correctly, Part 3 of the form requesting details of the driver should be something like :
"I was not the driver of Ferrari blah blah blah, having previously sold/disposed of it to...."
Just complete that section and send it back pronto.
Kevin...
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Have a look at the back of your V5s guys.
It is quite clearly the responsibility of the seller to complete, sign and return it to DVLA on a change of keeper.
In "Key Points" it states it is an offence not to do so.
David
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Yup, it's definitely an offence not to notify DVLA of a change but... plods priority here is catching a speeding motorist. They won't care who the registered keeper is, if they get their £60.
If he completes Part 3 of the form telling plod that he sold the vehicle to Mr Schumacher, 3 The High Street, then it's my guess that'll be the last he hears.
Kevin...
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David,
Given that 1 million letters are said to go astray every week, I don't think it is good enough to prosecute on the basis that the V5 tear-off has not been received. Once it is in the post box, there is no more we can do about it.
I would say "I posted it one month ago. Prove I did not." OK, so it may not be true but if politician can lie and get away with it....................
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1).Did you fill out and send the V5 to Swansea ?
2).Did you keep a receipt signed by you and the buyer which shows the date of purchase ?
If you have done neither of these then you are in trouble. You will be liable for the speeding fines and will probably be fined for not informing Swansea about selling the car.
I would get proper legal advice straight away.
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See david on this point:
"Have a look at the back of your V5s guys.
It is quite clearly the responsibility of the seller to complete, sign and return it to DVLA on a change of keeper. In "Key Points" it states it is an offence not to do so."
Like they said when i phoned them, things seemed to have changed from the days of old, the seller must now take responsibility for the transfer of the vehicle, the buyer only keeps the smaller slip for his reference and awaits the new updated vehicle registration document from DVLA which YOU (the seller) have sent with the buyers signature and address. This is a sensible change as it gets us round the porblem of buyers never informing DVLA of change of owner and cranking up fines on what is now the old owerners record.
see back of V5 for all this in print!
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Quoted from a V5, change of keeper beginning Feb 2002:
[Front]
"The Law: If the vehicle is sold or transferred, both the registered keeper and the the new keeper, must sign this document."
[Back]
"By law.. you must tell us if you sell or transfer the vehicle to someone else"
[Now for what the DVLA would like you to do]
"Please use the blue part overleaf to do so:
-write the new keepers name and address ...."
The seller doesn't *have* to do this. It's the buyer's responsibility to ensure the DVLA gets the buyer's details.
The back of the V5 is very well written in terms of encouraging the seller to elicit the buyer's details. But all the seller *must* do is sign and date a statement informing the DVLA when he, the seller, is no longer the keeper. It needn't be on the V5 itself (see the above quote). This allows for both loss of the V5, and a buyer's reluctance to fill in their details.
This is as much as I can work out from the V5. Does anybody know definitively? (Which may not the same as what a lackey in the DVLA may tell you).
Regards
Rob F
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Rob,
>The Law: If the vehicle is sold or transferred, both the registered keeper and the the new keeper, must sign this document."
I think you're being selective in the way you look at the V5.
If you accept it is the law to sign the document then look at what you are signing to confirm.
Extn keeper: That the new details you have given are true.
New keeper: That the date of transfer and new name/address are correct.
I accept as the seller you can't force a buyer to prove their address but the onus is clearly on you to complete the new keeper details to the best of your ability.
David
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DW,
Apologies, you are right that it says "it is an offence not to complete, sign and return the document when a vehicle changes hands".
But this must be wrong. It would make it illegal to sell a car without a V5. Yet the Post Office is full of V62s, to apply for a V5 when one doesn't come with the car. A signed statement must therefore have the same effect.
I'll shut up now. This is reminding me of a problem with a certain measuring instrument.
Regards,
Rob F
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ok, so there is a slight ambiguity in the wording, but nevertheless it is going to cause you a lot of hassel and may be a court of law to prove that you did in fact transfer the car to a new owner if you or the seller has not told the DVLA. The fines and charges are still going to be traced back via the DVLA to your address if that is all they have on record, why leave it to some chap you don't know to post off the form??? very risky indeed it seems!
just do it all at point of sale, signatures and all. Why the hell would'nt someone want to give their address anyway, unless they had ulterior motives?
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You need to cover yourself in this situation.I always write out two receipts with all the important details which both seller and buyer sign.Also Photocopy the filled out V5 before sending it to Swansea.
Recently bought a Lease car from auction which came with the whole V5. So does this mean the Lease company or Auction would be to blame for not informing Swansea of the change ? I sent the V5 off with my details and signature but with no signature from the Lease company. Would Swansea fine the Lease company ? I think not... the car belonged to the Post Office HQ London.
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Its all covered above but my two penneth-
Reg 12 Road Vehicles (Registration & Licensing) Regs, 1971 :
requires on the change of ownership of a motor vehicle for the seller to notify DVLA IN WRITING forthwith the change of ownership. Failure to do so is an offence.
The person acquiring the vehicle if he is going to use it on a public road must also notify DVLC in writing. Failure to do so is an offence. There are other provisions if intended use on a road is only under a Trade Licence.
Six months limitation on proceedings applies.
Unless these Regs have been drastically changed since 1997 then that is all that is required by Law. That which is outlined on V5 is procedural only and does not create any offences. The old owner signs and enters details of the new owner who also signs. The old owner, for it is in his own best interest to do so, sends off the blue to DVLC. Both old and new owner have then complied with the law. The new owner retains the red section as a temp V5 until new V5 is sent to him.
If the old owner does not advise DVLC either via V5 procedure or by writing separately then in relation to parking offences etc commited by the new owner, the law holds the old owner responsible for he is the one recorded at DVLC. A person who is not the owner and has been served with a Notice re these offences will escape if he furnishes the Authority with a statutory statement of ownership to that effect. i.e. doesn't know who the owner was and his details cannot reasonably be obtained.
Its time to name and shame Sam unless you want to donate £60 and collect away points. Further get a letter off to DVLA about what has happened re ownership so that records can be amended..
DVD
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you could always post-date the form, send it off and blame the post office!
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You could, Graham, but I think the post mark might give it away :-)
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