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I think its a case of too many (poor) models in the US, rising costs (inclusing the pension deals of the past - same as GM), over emphasis on the suv / pickup truck market - could take a leaf out of the Toyotas / Honda approach.
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The article is wrong in saying BMW is the most profitable car maker in the world. Toyota made a profit of 12.1 Billion USD last year, this is several times that of BMW. It must also be noted that Toyota spend considerable amounts on R&D and new plants compared to other manufactuers, this makes there profits look a lot less that they otherwise would be (if looking at the short term).
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SFAIK Ford in USA actually make more money from financing the sale of their cars ie loans to customers, than they do on profits from sales. GM was recently described as a pension and healthcare company with a sideline in making cars!
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Is this Toyota Motors or Toyota Corp? who make diggers, oil rigs, ships etc...?
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Its as somebody has already pointed out, Ford europe made a profit, actually up from last year, but Ford USA made another loss, but not as bad as last years loss. So its not all doom and gloom. They need to release more econimical models in the US, that seems to be way that the yanks are going with there motors. Ford were around long before many other car manufacturers and will still be around for a long long time to come. Saying the mighty has fallen is a little drastic...
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The article is wrong in saying BMW is the most profitable car maker in the world. Toyota made a profit of 12.1 Billion USD last year, this is several times that of BMW.
What I'd be interested in is not how much profit but profit per car ........Toyota probably sell more than twice as many cars as BMW.
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A pertinent point from Chad about profit per car.
It never ceases to amaze me that BMWs are marketed as exclusive products yet 3- and 5-series models are everywhere.
Just like Mercedes, they're seen differently in different markets. An E-class Merc is a director-level standard over here. In Germany it's been known for ages as the Stuttgart taxi.
I feel a bit sorry for Ford. They make some decent mainstream cars over here, but get dragged down by weak models and chronic fixed cost problems in the States.
Whoever it was that made the point about finance is dead right, BTW.
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More three series sold than Mondeo according to JC so arguably a Mondeo is ore exclusive. I buy them 'cos I want a RWD car, my choice. BMW are slated as being ugly but SWMBO would say better selling an ugly car at a profit than a pretty one at a loss !
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I could be wrong here, as I had a quick listen to radio station news the other morning,and they mentioned ford were going to spend 1 billion in research into alternative fuels and greener cars.
Hardly sounds like they are having problems if they can afford to do this
--
Steve
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BMW 1.3 million cars, profit £2.7Billion Profit per car £2,076
Toyota 8.2Million cars ,profit £5.5 Billion Profit per car £670
For 2005 finanical year.
BMW highest profit on Turnover and per car. Toyota Biggest Profit..
madf
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i dont argue about who is right wrong here. But i think saying Ford are dead is a bit premature. However, full credit must go to BMW (I hate most bmw's) for making their cars so desirable to so many people.
In my opinion the only good bmw is a big one, not a mondeo equivalent (but better perceived) small one!
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Yes yes, try a 535 diesel or an M5.....!
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It's more than mere cars. BMW have (in the eyes of their target audience) cultivated an image of reliability and being a prestige brand. My opinion on Customer Profiles after years of ownership are as follows.
1. People who are brand loyal come hell or high water and would buy a Trabant if it had a BMW badge on it.) - these people have huge disposable income and are usually of could I say of senior years.
2. People (possibly like me) who prefer RWD mainstream cars- a minority perhaps ??
3. New Rich people who buy an image and want to pose.
4. People who can just about reach the poverty specc'd 3 series and want to pretend to have more money than they have and are in hock up to eyeballs.
5. People who genuinely love the brand's heritage (which by any measure it has) and genuinely love their BMWs for what they are ( a dying breed).
I would argue that at one time, which depends on what model we're talking about, the brand was a quirky left field choice - that is no longer true.
I was in a dealership today, the merchandise on sale there was outragiously priced (it may have been priced in Yen of course !) but you cannot argue with the perception of quality that they manage to cultivate whether that's true reflection or not.
Me ? I'm a bit 3, and little bit 5. I don't feel that I pose in my 5. I love my car for any number of reasons. Oh and don't forget the other brands that contribute to the Corporation's success. And remember BMW don't do discounts !
Maybe someone could do a similar excersise on Ford ?
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I could start off on the Ford one by suggesting that they are purchased or leased by lazy, bored or disinterested fleet managers
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From the three year old R1150GS I was looking at the other day BMW could do with a bit of Ford QC, or Yamaha, Honda or Kawasaki QC for that matter, horrendous corrosion on steel parts, peeling laquer on alloy parts. I guess the cars are better finished, I hope so, I quite fancy a 3 Series touring.
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I could start off on the Ford one by suggesting that they are purchased or leased by lazy, bored or disinterested fleet managers
To the contrary, if a fleet manager is choosing he will go on whole life costs, however many companies offer a broad choice and Ford are still popular choices when the driver can decide himself.
To counter PU's BMW "why buy" with a Ford one:
Percieved and actual VFM
Class leading dynamics
Great reputation for reliability
Generally very good dealers
330i SE spec for 318i money
318i spec for the price of a 3 year old 318i
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Cheddar,
No need to counter me, It's just my perceptions based on my observations which may be flawed. I like BMWs but perhaps for my own unique reasons. I see what you're saying certainly post Focus Ford* have really improved. I have tried to love the ones I've driven, but they just don't do it for me. The only one I have really taken to was the Puma for which all your comments are true enough. I prefer the Astra I recently drove to the Focus,but that does't make me a bad person only different to the mainstream !
* I'm not being Robin Reliant about the Focus by the way !
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No need to counter me, >>
Sorry PU by "counter" I did not mean that I disagree with your points, rather I was making similar points from a Ford perspective, regards.
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Ford have a MAJOR problem. (as I posted elsewhere).
Their US business is losing volume 40% in a quarter due to high petrol prices hitting 4x4 and pick up prices. Ford US top seller (1million units/year) is a pick up. The Japanese and Hyundai are slaughtering them on fuel consumption.
In Europe and UK Ford spent money on disastrous loss making acquisitions (Volvo Ford) and have lost their former market leadership.
BMW and Toyota command premium prices (see Yairs pricing) and give few discounts. Ford MUST discount to sell .
Second hand values? Same story.
And of course reliability and customer service.
Where are all the complaining BMW and Toyota owners in the Technical Section? They don't exist.
As for innovation Ford are at least 10 years behind Toyota on hybrid/electric cars. So a $1 billion R&D program to play catchup is unimpressive.
And finally. You can tell a company's sense of pride by the money it spends on its own logo.
Every Ford I have owned has seen the Ford badge discolour and fade within 4 years. Toyota an BMW badges appear to last for 10 years plus.
The cost accountants manage to cheapen the badge - the key sign of a company - its logo - so it looks carp and nasty.
Look what Mercedes did to themselves over the past 10 years on quality.
BMW/Toyota have never sacrificed quality for a few pence saved..
And Ford do not compete any more on small cars (Fiesta). Overweight and ill equipped vs the competition (read the reviews). Once it was THE leader in Europe through the 80s and 90s - thrown away through refusing to inbvest in a new Fiesta until 2002 (those acquisitions) so losing market share and playing catchup.
Remember Jaguar and Volvo are still basket cases. .
madf
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Madf, you wonder where the BMW and Toyota owners are in technical. Ther arn't many Ford queries either, are there? Not when compared to VAG, say.
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I don't think anyone could really knock Ford's for quality, so far my Ford's have been more reliable than my dad's Z4 which has broken down two or three times, it's the only car he has ever had to call a breakdown service for in about 30 years!
Blue
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At the end of the day this is all about slick matketing and badge snobbery. The vast majority of people who buy BMW's think they are buying something special, and could not care or notice if it we RWD or FWD
I seem to remember reading somewhere that BMW relied basicaly on the 3 series and were worried if trends changed what would happen
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"BMW 1.3 million cars, profit £2.7Billion Profit per car £2,076"
Porsche 90,954 cars, profit 1.238 billion euros- profit per car 13,611 euros (£9,400 approx)
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Alastair
I agree. Fords are very reliable. But my experience of trim and paint quality (plus badges!) compared to BMW/Toyota) makes them - imo - a poor third.
And yes in the past 10 years I have owned all three makes.
I also owned an Audi. I had more repairs (some under warranty) than on a Rover 800 which I drove for 80k miles. I thought the mechanical reliability/quality issues for a "prestige" premium priced car were unacceptable.
I would never buy another until convinced these issues had gone away.
madf
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Ford have a MAJOR problem. (as I posted elsewhere). Their US business is losing volume 40% in a quarter due to high petrol prices hitting 4x4 and pick up prices. Ford US top seller (1million units/year) is a pick up. The Japanese and Hyundai are slaughtering them on fuel consumption.
Ford issue in the US is labor costs, rather the social costs of reducing their labor force, most large US companies who have emplyed 10s of 1000s of people for thirty years or more are in the same position.
In Europe and UK Ford spent money on disastrous loss making acquisitions (Volvo Ford) and have lost their former market leadership.
Volvo is on the way up, as with Jaguar quality has improved under Ford.
BMW and Toyota command premium prices (see Yairs pricing) and give few discounts. Ford MUST discount to sell . Second hand values? Same story. And of course reliability and customer service. Where are all the complaining BMW and Toyota owners in the Technical Section? They don't exist.
Lots of mentions of BMW diesel turbo probs and related engine failures, nikasil liner probs requiring engine replacements (ok Jag V8s similarly effected), very expensive failure of alloy subframes on five ish year old 3 series Toyotas reliability rating is falling albeit from a high level. Major issues with corrosion on Toyota and Lexus alloys.
As for innovation Ford are at least 10 years behind Toyota on hybrid/electric cars. >>
10 years, rubbish just because thay have not launched an ugly, slow hybrid that is actually less economical that billed and costs in carbon terms twice as much to build as a 55mpg Focus.
And finally. You can tell a company's sense of pride by the money it spends on its own logo. Every Ford I have owned has seen the Ford badge discolour and fade within 4 years. Toyota an BMW badges appear to last for 10 years plus.
The badges on my dad's just scrapped 88 Granada were fine.
BMW/Toyota have never sacrificed quality for a few pence saved..
>>
Turbos, alloys ?
And Ford do not compete any more on small cars (Fiesta). Overweight and ill equipped vs the competition (read the reviews). Once it was THE leader in Europe through the 80s and 90s - thrown away through refusing to inbvest in a new Fiesta until 2002 (those acquisitions) so losing market share and playing catchup.
The new Fiesta was top of the pile in 2002 and still is in engine terms the 1.25 being very sweet and the diesels class leading, perhaps only pipped by the Renault 1.5 DCis.
Remember Jaguar and Volvo are still basket cases. .
>>
Jag quality is top class now, the new XJ is dynamically supreme though its retro XJ styling has been an issue. Likewise Volvo is on the up in QC terms and the V40 / V50 are likely to lift it in the sales charts.
The fact is that if measured in vehicle dynamics, cost, quality, support and distribution Ford are probably the most successful car maker and are still on the way up in most of these areas, as has been said by HJ and others Ford build quality compares with BMW and Audi and is ahead of MB, however their HR legacy in the US is having a severe effect on their global trading performance.
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"Ford issue in the US is labor costs, rather the social costs of reducing their labor force, most large US companies who have emplyed 10s of 1000s of people for thirty years or more are in the same position."
It is an issue BUT Ford quarter 2 sales are down a staggering 42%.. due to model range and fuel consumption.
"Ford says it was forced to embark on a second restructuring after dismal sales of its sports utility vehicles plunged the company into its second straight quarterly loss".
etc
tinyurl.com/gjzyv
madf
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"Remember Jaguar and Volvo are still basket cases. ."
Basket cases .. I mean losing money. Which they do - consistently.
Nothing to do with the model ranges..They can't sell enough to make money.
madf
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And finally. You can tell a company's sense of pride by the money it spends on its own logo. Every Ford I have owned has seen the Ford badge discolour and fade within 4 years. Toyota an BMW badges appear to last for 10 years plus.
>>
The badges on my dad's just scrapped 88 Granada were fine.
Couldn't agree more cheddar on all your points, the most stupid one though that you had to reply to was the claim about Ford badges fading and discoloured after 4 years??? he's clearly talking utter crap! My mondeos 5 years old, no problems at all yet. Badge is fine. Best mates Puma 7 years old, no problrms, badge is fine, girlfriends Fiesta 6 years old, no problems... badge is fine etc........
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I think the main mistake here is to try to generalise - the ONLY thing you can say from looking at the quality of the badge is about the quality of the badge - nothing else! - you can't generalise to say if the badge is poor, the rest of the car is poor!
The badge along with other bits of exterior trim is designed and made by one team, and the other parts are made by other teams - there is very little cross over between engineering teams. In order to produce any complex engineering product, you need to compartmentalise the engineering effort, or else you would end up with chaos!
There are some oddities though - in one manuacturer I know of, the transmission engineers do have some input to the design and spec of the gearlever knob (although from what I have heard, I suspect they would rather be spared the aggro of dealing with the marketing and customer perceptions headaches that come with dealing with a piece of interior trim!)
This is what really makes me laugh about people looking at dashboards and interiors and saying that the whole car is obviously of high quality - these types are seriously misguided.
Of course, the marketing types WANT punters to make this erroneous, lazy minded link between relitvely cheap and simple bits of trim and the overall quality of the vehicle, because this enables the manufacturer to maximise profit, which is of course much higher on "plusher" models within any range.
Number_Cruncher
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To the contrary, if a fleet manager is choosing he will go on whole life costs, however many companies offer a broad choice and Ford are still popular choices when the driver can decide himself.
There is still great brand loyalty towards Ford in the UK, as it was (and still is to some degree) perceived as a British car for decades. So people buy them whether they are good, bad or indifferent (they are generally good at the moment).
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I have to admit - I do admire how Ford have sorted themselves since the 80's in terms of dynamics, build quality, and generally good cars. The new ranges are looking better then ever. Was hoping for a good coupe (cougar sized) though - rwd would be great - and a cosworth type car again.
Hope they continue this with Volvo , Range Rover / Landrover and Jaguar.
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rwd would be great
Yes - but sadly a vain hope.
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What won't have helped Ford certainly in the UK is the demise of the company car market. Too many people now ditching the company Mondeo and Focus, taking the cash, and finding lease deals on 318i's and base spec A4's.
I'm not suggesting everyone buys a BMW/Audi/Mercedes for the badge, but on the whole we are a nation of badge snobs.
Cheers
DP
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