Last week a Goth was arrested and convicted while walking through the metal detectors at the tube in London.
He said to the person he was with "These machine wouldn't stop **** "
Btitish Transport Police jumped on him and took him away to be searched, and he was charged with some public order offence as above, words causing alarm and distress - so even swearing about an inanimate object can land you in hot water.
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I think the BTP's response was quite reasonable given what happened last year. They proved a point.
The Police will have a call linked to this incident (from the other driver), that will have to be recorded as a "Crime" under NationalCrime Recording Standards also known in the trade as "ethical crime recording" Basically they now crime everything that's reported to them which fits the criteria of an offence, this is monitored by independant auditing, - some Forces, notably North Wales Police who pioneered this, have software applications which automatically "crime" incidents - so there's no hiding place. There is an additional pressure on them to detect, through Sanctioned detections (Charge, Summons, Fixed Penalty), before they can charge or summons the offence has to pass an evidential threshold test, seek CPS advice (effectively consent). It's a paper chase and a half..... They can also dispose through non sanctioned ways but that's another story. I spend to much time hanging around custody offices.
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Well I don't know what to think. I don't have any agenda for or against the police, but I don't believe that putting someone in fear of their safety is not a criminal offence. The garage employee thought I was going to be attacked and so did I. My belief is that she couldn't be bothered to pursue it. It makes me rather angry. If one of her colleagues asks me for help in future, I can't say I will be inclined to go out of my way to be helpful.
Was the comment about targets from another poster (sorry I can't see the thread) informed (e.g. a copper posting), or just a guess, or just plod bashing?
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Plod blasting probably.
It's one of three offences, if you have the car details, report it if you feel strongly enough amd don't get put off.
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Pugugly said:
"Plod blasting probably. It's one of three offences, if you have the car details, report it if you feel strongly enough amd don't get put off."
Thanks. It's sometimes hard to distinguish fair comment from bashing, especially since I rarely meet the police.
One question though. How can I report it if the PC says that it is not an offence and will not do anything?
I will go to the garage tomorrow, and ask the assistant what he saw, and what he thought happened. An independent account will help me decide.
Leif
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I would phone it in to their call centre, emphasise that you felt threatened that you feared for you safety and that others obviouysly felt the same and that you want to make a formal complaint. Get an incident number and ask them to tell you who the incident will be allocated to for action.
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... Plod blasting probably ..
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well, it is not at all plod blastingl because i am the last person who would do so without cause.
i too do have contacts at various levels within the force and within the civil-service and within the government. and i can tell you that at various levels in all these bodies, there is no incentive to record a crime if it saves everyine the paperchase. if they see a good prospect of recording a crime that they feel is very probably and very easily going to add to their "solved crime" stats, then it will be "welcomed" with open arms.
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Fair enough Dalgliesh. Certainly no talk of "targets" in the eviroments I come to contact with other than actual Detection targets and reduction targets through the various Partnerships through Negotiated Targets. The guys I come into contact with on a daily basis certainly do not pick and choose what they deal with.
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.. Certainly no talk of "targets" .....
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quite ok, pugugly. i would refer you to these two recent comments by messrs. fullchat and midlifecrisis:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=42633&...e
Lies, damned lies and police statistics - midlifecrisis Mon 26 Jun 06 17:43
I once caught a LAYWOMAN admin lady altering my collision report 'because it makes the stats better'.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=42...7
Catch the speeders but ignore the rest - Fullchat Tue 27 Jun 06 23:44
Or the local vocal " Something wants doing about all those speeding cars" brigade where being appeased. Particularly Councillor xxxxxx who is well known for his constant barage of complaints from his local constituants.
"Well we attended on X,Y and Z dates at A,B,and C times and despite your protestations we actually caught err zero speeders. So really you havent got a problem. Now will you let us go and get on with some real Police work?"
Remember there are a number of people pulling the Police's strings.
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Accepte that Dalglish, my response was specifically about crime though.
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Well yes, you could go back to the petrol station, talk it over with the assistant and then go back to the police and tell them you don't think you've been dealt with properly. You could even go to the local media and tell them what happened and that you weren't really happy with the police response.
Or you could just chalk it up to experience, be relieved that you weren't hurt and get on with your life.
I know which I'd do.
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And me, now where's that bit of chalk ?
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I'm not sure what chalk it up to experience means. Is the experience that Luton police are useless?
I've spoken to colleagues and friends and all said to report it, as did the garage assistant it. I am rather shocked that my experience was equated to trivial events (being insulted by a 'mental' on the street), and that I was told that there was no witness despite my statements to the contrary. For about 5 minutes I was subjected to continuous verbal abuse (which I cannot quote here) and felt that an assault was imminent. I intend to make a formal complaint about the officer on duty. I've recently moved to Luton, and it has come as a surprise to see the number of speed humps, speed cameras, poor signposting, bus lanes, and police cars driving at an alarming speed down the A505 (I've been scared at least once by the driving of a high speed police car). Hohum. Maybe I'll join the anti-police brigade at this rate.
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Leif,
Who are they to "tell" you there's no witnesses? There is a witness, try and get him or her to make a separate statement. It's YOUR right to complain, and they SHOULD respond. Who the hell do think they are?
The police are forever bleating that they don't get respect any more, and that they're overworked etc. etc. the fact is they're public servants who are failing their mandate currently. You don't GET respect, you earn it. They're not going to earn any respect by consistently bullying the public, failing to respond to criticism, adopting a "we're in charge we don't have to explain ourselves" attitude, being unapproachable, and breaking the very laws they purport to uphold, ESPECIALLY motoring ones.
We all remember (I hope) the thread a few weeks ago where someone DARED to "beep" at 2 police cars chatting in the middle of the road, and he got pulled over? I was SO angry about that.
I am angry generally about the police, they're ineffective, arrogant, useless and condescending. Please do your best to convince me otherwise as I hate feeling like this.
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>>Or you could just chalk it up to experience, be relieved that you weren't hurt and get on with your life.
For once I don't think I agree. For sure it doesn't need to become all encompassing and there has to be a certain grip on reality, but on the other hand why should the victim, Leif in this case, take any of the burden upon himself, including the effort of getting over it ? Surely the idiot should suffer the consequences of his actions ?
Why should the officer be able to take a half-hearted approach to his job simply because he felt like it and Leif shoudl live with it ? I don't think so.
We let far too many people get away with far too many things in this country simply because we're supposed to "turn the other cheek" or "get over it" or whatever. We'd be better off if everytime some lout behaved in this fashion they were thrown in the nearest cell for 48 hours, as they would be in most sensible places.
Leif - you should have clouted the guy with a crowbar. Given that the moment for that has paseed then you should make the biggest noise possible. You most certainly should make an official complaint and I'd play it up a bit and speak to the local paper. At least maybe the next time someone tries to get help then it will be more likely to be forthcoming simply because people want to avoid the publicity. The only way to have more police on the streeet will be if the political risk of not doing so is too much for the local mp/councillor.CPO, or whoever.
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I'm amazed - why should you have to 'get over it' ?
The incident clearly rattled you enough to report it here and to the police. That it affected you so is enough justification for the police to note the incident - at least.
You didn't respond with violence - you reacted in the way 'the community' would ask you to respond.
I'd ask to speak to my local beat officer - or the beat officer for the petrol station.
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"We let far too many people get away with far too many things in this country"
Yes, yes, I understand all this. But I also think there is a huge number of people 'in this country' who are first to tell others how to do THEIR jobs, perhaps forgetting that those jobs may have many problems of their own. Big waves can be made, and strong feelings aroused, with maybe a less satisfactory end-result than just taking time to forget the unsavoury episode. If that nasty individual was a genuine nut-case on the loose, posing no real threat, what would have been the right strategy?
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So you think it's acceptable, in a supposedly civilised country, to allow someone to threaten others as they go about their daily business?
If he's a "nut-job on the loose" then surely one of the questions raised is "why does he have a driving licence? And a car?" If he SHOULDN'T be out in said car, shouldn't the police investigate this? Even if, diddums, it proves to be difficult?
People tell me how to do my job all the time. My job does have many problems of it's own, and I take most criticism on the chin, furthermore, I am not so secretive and arrogant that I refuse to answer questions; if people ask why I have done something, unless I have something to hide, I can tell them.
But then, I do not work in the public sector, so I have no-one to hide behind. Or a badge with which to mask my underlying inadeqaucies and frustrations.
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"So you think it's acceptable, in a supposedly civilised country .. ?"
I didn't say anything about being acceptable; just tried to suggest that maybe least said, soonest mended. It seems that in Leif's incident, nothing worse happened than threatening words and gestures. This can happen at any football match, but I suppose we expect it there. I agree it shouldn't, but I believe that it may be unproductive to relieve one's feelings by ranting at someone else and making it a bigger issue than it is.
And in answer to FM2R, I quoted 'in this country' because it is a common phrase suggesting that it doesn't happen anywhere else, and God if only I lived in ....
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I don't really know why you quoted "'in this country'" or what the significance might be ?
I have no idea what the right strategy is or should be. I am interested in the way that our police force is being targeted, managed and thus percevied. And not only that perception, but also how that is manifesting itself in our society.
Someone, I suspect DVD, said in the backroom a few years ago "you get the police force you deserve" or something like that. Well you certainly get the force you'll accept.
What would have been the right strategy if said guy had returned and done the same thing the next day but this time with a shotgun ? Killing people and igniting fuel pumps ?
It never works for ostriches, and it won't work for people. However much you might like it to.
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Well I don't think there is anyone on this forum more anti-police than me but if a serving officer came on here and said you get the police you deserve I would accept that as fair comment.
I think it all started with the disgusting Macpherson report where Macpherson was hired to find the police guilty of racism and when he couldn't actually find any racists he coined the term 'institutionally racist'. Where were we the public when the police were being labelled racist with no evidence whatsoever?
The police are being managed by the Labour government we (actually I voted for the Elvis Party but the majority we) voted for by statistics and so they don't want to record any crimes they can't solve.
Leif, I am afraid the police are now totally useless your options are forget about it or deal with it yourself. I won't go on further about option two as I'm sure the mods won't like it but its easy to do if you wish to.
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I'd have kicked him in the danglies.
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Unladylike behaviour Miss.
JUST JOKING.
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Unladylike behaviour
I should hope so too. ;o)
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Sounds quite unpleasent what happened to you Leif, hope your over the shock now. I suppose we all take things differently. I've asked a few people in my office what they would have done and it ranges from "I'd Chin him", "ignore him and hope he goes away", "Ring the police immediatly", "try talking to him and ask what his problem is". I'd have tried the latter to see what happened? as of reporting it to the police I personally wouldn't have bothered, at the end of the day I'd put it down to somebody who's probably a bit worse for wear having a rant for no good reason and I wouldn't waste the coppers time, although on the flip side, if you dont report it maybe the next person who's on the sharp end of mr ranters tongue might not be so lucky?? If you go back to the police, let us know what happens....
Lee
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>> ... Plod blasting probably .. >> well, it is not at all plod blastingl because i am the last person who would do so without cause. i too do have contacts at various levels within the force and within the civil-service and within the government. and i can tell you that at various levels in all these bodies, there is no incentive to record a crime if it saves everyine the paperchase. if they see a good prospect of recording a crime that they feel is very probably and very easily going to add to their "solved crime" stats, then it will be "welcomed" with open arms.
I have had this confirmed today from a senior officer in the Met'.
They ain't what they used to be. Bureaucracy and do gooders have finished us off..............for good!!
vbr..........................MD
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<< My belief is that she couldn't bebothered to pursue it.
I would class the forecourt attendant as an innocent bystander, and it would be most unfair to try to drag someone like that into the matter.
It makes me rather angry. If one of her colleagues asks me for help in future, I can't say I will be inclined to go out of my way to be helpful.
It's more than somewhat vindictive (and unjustifiable) to vent your anger on the forecourt attendant's colleagues, who may or may not have even been on the premises at the time.
--
L\'escargot.
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It's more than somewhat vindictive (and unjustifiable) to vent your anger on the forecourt attendant's colleagues, who may or may not have even been on the premises at the time. -- L\'escargot.
Could be wrong but I think he's referring to the Policewoman who told him that no offence had been committed and the Police wouldnt get involved, not the attendant at the petrol station...
Blue
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