Intervals are very much driven by the manufacturers desire to show fleets low servicing costs.
However, one issue that nobody's mentioned is, how long are you going to keep the car?
In the OP's case, he's got a 20K mile car and if his 9000 mile service interval equates to his annual mileage, and he's likely to sell the car after 3 or 4 years, then he really isn't going to gain anything by changing the oil more frequently.
OTOH, if he's intending to keep the car for 20 years, then it might well be prudent to decrease the oil change interval.
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Without data, its just old wives tales to say that more frequent oil changes are beneficial. As for changing at 5,000, thats fine if you drive short distances only. No doubt the manual makes reference to severe service, where 5,000m OCI (or whatever the mfr suggests) are sensible.
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An ex colleague of mine used to run a D registered (1986, IIRC) 1.4 escort. He'd had it from new and only bothered getting the oil changed annually, which equated to approx 20,000 miles, if not more. He would only top up the oil when the oil pressure warning light came on - suffice to say the oil level was off the dipstick by then.
160,000 miles later the engine was still going strong. Always passed the emmision test at MOT time, and in all that time it only needed one new clutch and two starter motors. I've no idea how much longer it lasted, because the last I heard he'd sold it at 174,000 miles - the buyer thought it had only done 74,000 miles as the engine was still as sweet as a nut.
The reason I beleive it lasted as long as it did with the abuse and little maintenance it had was down to the fact that he commuted 60 miles to work each day and got the engine piping hot.
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its worth remembering that oil does more than just lube the engine.
It helps cooling, and carries carbon and other particulates in it, (filter doesnt trap all) and water etc.
Why would you want to continue carrying these around the engine? Makes obvious sense to change oil frequently. Treat vehicle assemblers guidelines as max distances and change more often especially if doing short start stop journeys.
Thats my opinion and you dont have to agree though!
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Getting the fluids nice and hot is the key, I think, DD. HGV's don't change their oil every 5,000 miles and their engines are a sight more valuable. I didn't realise how long they ran their oils until I came across a large outfit who sampled the condition. If all was well, 60,000 on the same sumpfull (with top-ups from time to time) was ordinary. Given that they have by-pass filters to remove smaller debris than car filters, it still makes a nonsense of the change every 5,000 mantra. No shear-down if you use the right oil for the job, and the additive package still worked.
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... it still makes a nonsense of the change every 5,000 mantra. ..
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i concur with nortones2, dd, and number-cruncher.
the old 5000 miles, 1 year, etc. figures were just best guesses and use of easy to remember milestones. there is nothing magical about those figures at all. the modern trend for quoting 9,000 miles is derived from rounding from the european 15,000 km guideline figure.
( this reminds me of the use of the figure of 15,000 euros for reporting requirements under the money laundering regulations. when the figure was first suggested in discussions within working-parties, it was meant to be a rough guide. it soon became enshrined in "rules" and people began to apply it rigidly. in the uk, it was agreed that a rough figure of around £10,000 would be used as a near enough value to 15,000 euros. however, in the latest redrafting of the advice to affected organisations who have to apply these rules, rather than revise the 15,000 euro figure upwards to allow for inflation over the past few years, they have decided to stick with the 15,000 euro number. not only that, but the advice now is that organisations should convert the 15,000 euro figure in to the equivalent pound-sterling figure on a daily basis and maybe even an hourly basis using the latest exchange rates! that is how what starts originally as a rough ball park figure ends up in tablets of stone ).
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"Without data, its just old wives tales to say that more frequent oil changes are beneficial."
Oil doesn't deteriorate? HJ's advice is wrong? Other oil experts are wrong? I'm surprised.
Yes, regular hot running is sure to punish oil less than frequent short trips will.
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I'm surprised too, but at the "pronouncers" who think they know better than the engine mfrs, and contradict without proof. Anecdotes are not proof.
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There is a chap who post on here and also several other forums i visit who by trade is an oil specialist. I'm not having a go at him per se but surely someone who deals in oil is going to recommend both that you change them regularly and also that you buy the top spec stuff.
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Nortones2 wrote:
>>Anecdotes are not proof.
I don't know about anyone else but I don't need proof that more frequent changes are beneficial - common sense says it's a trade-off between wear and cost, and if I'm happy to pay for them that's all I need to know.
Can you prove there is materially no more wear on a VAG diesel engine with 3 oil changes in 70,000 miles than in one with 6 or 12 changes in that distance? Remember, anecdotes are not proof... The manufacturers presumably do know the answer but they're not saying explicitly.
I think Number Cruncher, as usual, has a good point in one hears few reports these days of big end failure etc. , but there's a whole spectrum of engine health between one in top condition and a dead one - cumulative valve train and bore wear, sludge build etc. don't stop an engine being nominally serviceable, but I still want to minimise them.
I'm not trying to win an argument - I couldn't possibly try to dissuade anyone from following the prescribed service regime - but please don't tell me I'm wrong to look after my engines beyond minimum requirements.
I remember the government telling us there was no evidence of a link between BSE and CJD, I didn't need proof before I stopped eating burgers!
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Manatee: the first point is that it is the 5,000 advocates who should provide proof. They are the advocates of changing oil frequently. The mfrs advice is more relevant. BTW, this link gives a series of UOA results for one engine: neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html From that article: "Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages. This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and c***coPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it."
It identifies TBN and top-up requirements as the determining factors in whether the oil should be changed.
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I think the report needs to be read and understood a little deeper than the extracts you have taken from it about more oil changes causing more wear.
It actually says that it suggests changing oil MORE FREQUENTLY during first year of engines life. (To allow it to bed in correctly?) and ONLY START MOVING TOWARDS extended oil changes once the engine is older (when the wear has already occurred?)
No where does it say that more frequent oil changes cause wear. And if it did I would like to see proof not opinion.
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Worldwide, VAG have had around 416,000 1.8T gasoline engines replaced under warranty due to failure of the engine oil. (sludge)
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Interestingly I have always followed HJ's regular oil advice but having been stung by an Audi dealer for such a simple job, took it to another one of H's favourites Wheelbase, who I have also used for years. Colin @ Wheelbase strongly suggested I went back to Audi's variable service interval due to the reliability of modern oils and the monitoring system built into a car.
So, a very experienced VAG engineer who would benefit from agreeing with me, but telling me otherwise, states that the 5k oil changes are a complete waste of money on a modern diesel engine.
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Worldwide, VAG have had around 416,000 1.8T gasoline engines replaced under warranty due to failure of the engine oil. (sludge)
416,000 1.8T engines replaced? ????? Are you sure ???
I'm surprised that VAG have actually produced that many 1.8T engines, and replacing all of them (at a wild guess of £1000 a go for a bare engine ex-factory) would have cost about £500million. That'd be frontpage news.
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Worldwide, VAG have had around 416,000 1.8T gasoline engines replaced under warranty due to failure of the engine oil. (sludge)
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i find it amazing that people will quote things here without any supporting evidence.
go on ashok, prove your figures, or withdraw them. i would dare not make statements like these unless they were watertight, and i look forward to seeing ashok's evidence.
as for the 5000 mile oil change mantra, why stop at 5000, why not 4000, 3000, 2000, 1000, or indeed why not after every trip? see how ridiculous these arbitrary figures can be?
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"as for the 5000 mile oil change mantra, why stop at 5000[?]"
Well, it costs me about £50 all-in, so about a penny a mile. That's a price my economic circumstances leave me happy to pay, thought it is (I agree) utterly arbitrary. Perhaps it's wasted money, but there is no proof possible in either of the camps, so it DOES have to be an arbitrary figure.
It seems equally odd that if there is a scientific reason behind oil change intervals that the interval isn't 12,136, say, rather than 12,000. Seems equally arbitrary.
The argument's pretty pointless, to be blunt. Change your oil when you choose.
V
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Nortones2: The first point, to coin a phrase, is that I have no need or desire to provide proof - you do what you want, I'm happy changing my oil about every 6,000 miles. My approach is fail-safe.
The second point is that you quote selectively from the article you mention - the second paragraph after the one you quote reads
"Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources."
That does not seem to recommend running for 20,000 miles or more without oil or filter changes. But they are obviously wrong anyway if the manufacturer knows best?
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Its obviously too lo9ng to repeat all of it: read it. thats why i cited it. Where did 20,000 come from? I have already sad the maker will have the data, but there are other voices. See the reasoning, and consider the HGV example. There is no reasoning behind the "frequent change is better" other than a repeat of an old wives tale.
HJ: I can imagine you have sympathy to the trade, thats all. They don't like extended OCI's.
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>>Manatee wrote:
Can you prove there is materially no more wear on a VAG diesel engine with 3 oil changes in 70,000 miles than in one with 6 or 12 changes in that distance?
I think you've hit the nail on the head - in any isolated 70,000 mile period (0-70000, or 30,000-100,000), which is how long many owners would typically run car, I'm dubious that more frequent oil changes would make any difference.
However if you're going to run a car from 0-280,000 miles, then it probably makes some sense to change the oil more frequently.
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