I'm beginning to get quite desperate, so would appreciate any help.
I have a Pug 306 HDi 1999 on a V plate. It has only ever had diesel in the tank.
The engine cut out less than a mile from home over two weeks ago. It stalled, as though in too high a gear, and refused to start.
After about 20 seconds the engine started, but would not take the strain of letting the clutch in, stalling each time I tried.
The vehicle was taken to my local independant garage. Their diagnostics said there were fuelling problems with the injectors, but he was sceptical, as after clearing the fault codes, a different set of codes appeared.
It was taken to a Peugeot main dealer who diagnosed failed injectors 1 & 3. As a result all 4 were changed as per Pug procedures. The car still would not fuel or run correctly.
The fuel pump was changed, as Peugeot said there could be swarf in the fuel system. No Change.
I've got the following info from the dignostics machine to see if anyone can help:
Diesel Pressure 290 Bar
Injector Quantity 14.1 mm3/l
Main Injector 1.7 Idle - 6.2 Flat
Injector 4 -2.5
Injector 3 +1.9
Injector 2 -5.0
Injector 1 +5.3
The ECU is coming up with the following fault codes:
1404 - PreHeating or PostHeating Control
0201 - Cylinder No 1 injector or circuit - Open circuit or short to Ground/Battery
The car is still not running. It sounds like the roughest post-war eastern bloc tractor you could imagine.
The circuit has been tested and is not open.
Neither my Indy garage nor Peugeot have a clue what is actually wrong with the car, as they have both admitted to my face. I've spent a lot of cash so far and feel it's all been wasted..........
Please help!
Thanks
Simon
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Simon
These are too complicated and suffer too many obscure faults to be diagnosed by even a competant general garage; [let alone a dealership!] There are also too many system variables and permutations to give remote generic advice; but all those listed parameters are suspect [or lack context] - possibly suggesting another underlying cause.
As always with these; take it to a diesel specialist. He'll be very experienced with the HDi's little foibles and will know if this version is supposed to have things like a [working?] primary pump and how to test for a failed O-ring on the fuel-pressure regulator.
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"take it to a diesel specialist". On the face of it this looks good advice. All I can say is that one of my local d-s's did not cure my HDi of sooty running and worsening fuel consumption. He opined that it was 'just the way I drive it', gave it an Italian tune-up and said it was OK. My local indie, who is not a d-s (but I suppose any decent indie has to be competent these days), sorted the problem by adjusting the timing at the camshaft - after admitting bafflement for a while first.
This won't solve Simon's problem, but maybe the local d-s won't either. :-(
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Andrew
True; it's always a risk. You case is a nice example of just how dreadfully fragmented the trade is becoming. A general independant will not be able to justify the [terrifying] cost of the equipment and training needed to properly diagnose the diesel control system - but the diesel diagnostic specialist probably wouldn't nowadays know how/be equipped to check for a mechanical fault; [the cam-belt timing - something that a garage does regularly] as it falls outside his normal field of operations - at least on this engine.
Had your's recently lost a fan belt? Other than disintegrating dual-mass front pulleys/keyway issues; belt-jumping after FEAD breakage is becoming quite a common event if bits of the broken fan-belt get into the timing cover.
The listed data on Simon's car would suggest it's more likely to be a injection system problem than a mechanical engine fault: but hey - I'll never say never...
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Could it something more simple such as the exhaust or CAT collapsed.
Vauxhall had mine in for a week with their equipment showing all kinds of readings. It told them the turbo wasnt working and replaced it but it was not the problem. The MAF had failed but it wasnt that either and so on...
Eventually they took it to another main dealer who found the CAT was blocked.
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"Had yours recently lost a fan belt? Other than disintegrating dual-mass front pulleys/keyway issues"
No - my car is one of the first 306 HDi's, but has done a quiet 52K miles, without any breakdowns. I had been sure for about a year that the engine was 'off-tune' - it was just a question of nagging long enough to get it sorted. 'My' indie has limited availability, as in the racing season he spends long weekends in the pits, which can be inconvenient for me, but adds much to his street-cred. I told him I suspected the fuelling or timing. After he had sorted my problem, I wondered whether it had developed because of incipient break-up of that pulley we hear so much about. But the car has done 3500 miles since his work(which coincided with the cambelt and water-pump change, when he would have checked all those bits) and is running as well as ever. I am beginning to uncross my fingers ...
Incidentally, the whole job cost £200 including parts and VAT. Probably better than a diesel specialist?
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I presume the garage checked the simplest thing first such as air leaks into the low pressure side of the diesel fuel system.
As fuel pipes and fuel filter are under negative pressure (vacuum) because the lift pump 'sucks' fuel from the tank which means that any leaks, perished or split fuel hose/pipe joints will allow air to be sucked in and diesels will NOT run with air in the fuel system. (Having said that, sometimes they do but albeit like the Eastern Bloc tractor you describe)
Any fuel leaks on the high pressure side should be very noticeable due to the huge pressures generated. (That's why all injector/common rail supply pipes are all metal)
The preheat fault may just be a coincidence as failure of pre-heat/glowplug system should NOT affect an engine that is already running.
Other possible faults;
Cambelt slippage/failure
Major mechanical failure with camshaft and/or valves.
Let us know what the specialists find
Andrew
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Low pressure leaks are not a problem on HDIs as there is an electric lift pump in the tank.
Has the garage checked that the cambelt has not jumped, or the vernier pulley slipped (as per AndrewT's problems)? Have they checked the low pressure pump is actually pumping (hardly an unknown fault on these - and doesn't generate a fault code, but can generate all sorts of random codes because it confuses the computer!). Seems like they've been a bit too keen with plugging the computer in and changing parts at random....
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Spanner/RichardW
Oddly enough, you're possibly both right. The biggest problem with diagnosing all the various PSA HDi systems is sussing-out exactly what's fitted to that particular car.
Even all the different engine codes don't really help. The same code can have either a Bosch system with a primary [tank] pump; [or now without, but still with relay, fuse and live-fed plug on a, completely empty, tank-unit fitted with pump terminals!] or a Siemens system that's [usually, so far] suction-fed. Some have exhaust cats: some have Eolys additive systems and particle filters: some have neither.
All can have various codes that won't stay cleared [and therefore don't matter] mixed-in with some that really do! [But they may not be for the actual fault!] Hard-won experience means everything when dealing with these horrors.
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Some of these suffered from pump breakup. Only remedy is new injectors, pump, filter, pipes, fuel tank and lift pump. If anything isn't changed then the muck just gets sucked back into the pump.
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Can you explain - in laymans- terms i am not a mechanic why a diesel will not run when its drawing air and why it doesnt effect petrol engines as much
Cheers
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A diesel engine will not run if the fuel system draws air because the fuel injection pump (or its equivalent on any other diesel system) works by compressing a small volume of fuel to an extremely high pressure prior to its being injected into the engine. Air is compressible, so the operation of the high pressure side of the pump is defeated if any air gets into the pump.
A leak on the air induction side has no effect whatever if the engine is naturally aspirated (PSA n/a engines don't even have an inlet manifold gasket) and results in a loss of boost pressure if the engine is turbocharged. This will not stop the engine, but will limit maximum power output and will be noisy.
Petrol injection systems operate at far lower pressures and are largely self-venting via the fuel rail pressure regulator.
659.
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A bit of an update for you.
Basically, I had been told a load of old codswallop by the Pug dealer when they diagnosed No. 1 & 3 injector failiure, and advised replacement of all 4. Three were still ok, and the fourth had failed due to an electrical problem.
I had the 306 looked at by a Bosch approved garage. They diagnosed a small chafe (less than a match head in size) on the wiring to injector No.1, which was caused by rubbing on the battery box. This meant the injector was open circuit and would blow immediately. So one of the new injectors was wrecked as soon as it was connected, and the other three were an uneccessary purchase, along with the pump.....
The wire was fixed and shielded from rubbing again. He fitted one of my old injectors - still thankfully in the passenger footwell, and tested. All working now.
I'm now in dispute with the Pug dealer, as I feel their mis-diagnosis has caused me lots of unneccessary bills.
Thanks for all your comments.
Simon
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As I've said on here before, 90% of garages are useless at diagnosing problems, especially on these Diesels. Just about every CR Diesel problem I hear of gets a new pump and injectors (at mega-money) - I'm sure they can't all be necessary.
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Also petrol injection engines spray into the inlet manifold,not the combustion chamber;a bit of air would have little effect.(OK-I know there have been direct injection gasoline engines.)
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Always worth a try. Disconnect battery, leave ECU to discharge for few mins. Reconnect battery (short sharp reconnection with no sparks), and give it a try. Sometimes a sparky battery re-connection can cause initialisation problems in the ECU with all sorts of follow on strange symptoms.
Good Luck with it.
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"I'm in dispute with the Pug dealer, as I feel their mis-diagnosis has caused me lots of unneccessary bills"
Seems to me you may have a case. It's not even mis-diagnosis, as in your first post you mentioned Injector 1, circuit fault - or words to that effect. They didn't even check the symptom that was reported?
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