On 'Today' this morning a minister from the Department for Trade and Industry said that a company was setting up a new manufacturing facility on the Browns Lane site which would employ 2000 people (far more than Jaguar employed there in recent years). Do youknow who that is ?
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Soupytwist !
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Common practice...
If a multinational company is in or forsees troubled times ahead the first thing it will do is close overseas operations.
I used to work for Pirelli making optical fibre. They shut the UK plants and withdrew into Italy.
PSA are going through the same routine.
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I remember reading that the UK bought a large percentage of 206's, shame there is no loyalty shown to the workers! Red Baron, was that the plant in Newport, S.Wales?
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Sprice,
I worked at the manufacturing facility in Harlow (there was another in Southampton) and most of the optical fibre did go to the Newport facility that made the bundled cable.
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Quote: ""Apart from the Japanese who will build cars here in a few years time ?""
I wonder if the Japanese will continue here beyond 10-15 years, by which time their modern production facilities might begin to show their age.
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Peugeot: We are shutting the plant you are all being made redundant.
TGWU: YEAH! You do that and we'll all go on strike!
It is strategic brilliance of this level that makes me proud to be British.
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Peugeot: We are shutting the plant you are all being made redundant. TGWU: YEAH! You do that and we'll all go on strike! It is strategic brilliance of this level that makes me proud to be British.
Trade Union leaders have to do something to justify their six- figure salaries.
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I think they are trying to drum up support from the unions in France....
Working in the motor industry, I have to say that some of the reasons for shutting Ryton are a little spurious. The cost of 'modernising' the plant is overstated. The cost of factory automation equipment has fallen greatly in recent years and I understand that the government were prepared to subsidise a large proportion of the cost of any upgrading...
I think a major factor in Pugs decision is that the UK has become something of a 'distant outpost' as far as the rest of Europe is concerned. We are not in the Euro and hence there are considerable exchange rate risks and uncertainties. Our transportation infrastructure is somewhat dilapidated. Mainland Europe, by comparison, is interconnected with good road and rail links and factories in places like the Czech Republic are handy for the growing East European markets and also established markets in Germany, Italy and France.
British people, by and large, are less well educated and trained than most Europeans (even East Europeans). Wages are quoted as being 'high' - well, they are not particularly high by international standards, but they are high when one looks at the relatively poor productivity (which goes back to plant investment and education/training).
Last but not least it is much easier to get rid of British workers than French or German so Ryton was always going to be high on the list for closure in a downturn, even if it were their most modern plant.
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Aprilia,
Normally agre with everything you say and am awed by your technical knowledge but:
'We are not in the Euro and hence there are considerable exchange rate risks and uncertainties.'
Sorry nonsense. There are currency risks when trading between Euro and non-Euro zones but they are not considerable and can be covered by hedging. In addition the primary currency risks for European manufacturers are not between Euro/Sterling but between Euro and far east currencies where most components now come from. These are hardly likely to be eliminated by UK joining the Euro zone are they?
Add to that the near destruction of the Italian economy and the damage to the German economy being caused by the one size doesn't fit all economic policies imposed on the Euro zone and UK PLC is far better served by being outside it.
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Aprilia, Normally agre with everything you say and am awed by your technical knowledge but: 'We are not in the Euro and hence there are considerable exchange rate risks and uncertainties.' Sorry nonsense. There are currency risks when trading between Euro and non-Euro zones but they are not considerable and can be covered by hedging. In addition the primary currency risks for European manufacturers are not between Euro/Sterling but between Euro and far east currencies where most components now come from. These are hardly likely to be eliminated by UK joining the Euro zone are they? Add to that the near destruction of the Italian economy and the damage to the German economy being caused by the one size doesn't fit all economic policies imposed on the Euro zone and UK PLC is far better served by being outside it.
Clearly you're not a fan of the Euro.
About 75% of Pug. 206 components come from the Euro zone (about 25% are UK sourced). I don't think any components at all come from the Far East (although some audio systems may do on certain models - would need to check that). I'm not saying Euro is a major factor, but by being located outside of the Euro zone its just one more factor to worry about.
Leaving aside some Japanese brands, very few components used by the European motor industry actually come in from the Far East. Nearly all are sourced from within Western and Eastern Europe.
I am still amused by the allegedly poor performance attributed by UK comentators to European economies. Seems to be the old adage that if you repeat something often enough it becomes the 'truth'. The German economy is not doing too badly overall, nor is the French. Since 1997 the UK economy has created about 2.0 million jobs; the French economy has created 1.8m - not so very different. Similarly the UK has 'parked' about 2.7m people 'out of sight' on various types of incapacity benefit - I believe the figure for France (RMI) is about 1.0m. Also the oft-quoted youth unemployment figure for France of 25% is just a myth. According to the figures published by the LSE last week its about the same as the UK figure (about 6%) - it seems some UK economists were including French youth in Higher Education as 'unemployed'...
I shall be off to Germany in May for a spell on contract work there. I'll earn more than I could in the UK, working in a much more pleasant and professional environment and in a country with a vastly superior infrastructure and generally better quality of life. Its not some kind of Utopia, of course, but its pretty damn good compared to the bleak prospects offered by my native Midlands.
There is a serious danger that the UK, relatively isolated as it is, continues to believe its own propaganda and trails further and further behind the rest of Europe. Surely people must have realised that with companies like Pug shutting down in the UK (not to mention Jaguar, the winding down of GM and Ford car production etc etc) something is badly wrong.
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I quite agree, Aprilia. As one who cut my teeth in the UK automotive components industry, I keep an active interest in these things, although I now work in a completely different field, career wise.
When, for whatever complex politically inspired reasons, this industrially based country abandons the education of its children to the point where mathematics and basic engineering principles can no longer be properly taught, the writing is on the wall. The development of "politically correct" procedures, and the emergence of "health & safety" and mindless procedural "training" as (perhaps our only) growth industries simply seals our fate.
Where I may diverge from your point of view, Aprilia, is in my optimism regarding the innovation and sometimes startling cleverness of some British designs; it's just a pity that we now stand no chance of producing them here. Conversely, I find that sparkle of genius is almost entirely absent in the German designs I see. Beautifully developed, yes, but a triumph of development over original thought in many cases. This philosophical difference in approach extends to everyday experience. Having visited Germany in an engineering role many times, I just couldn't live there, despite the sheer efficiency of the place being exactly as you describe.
I just have to have the idiosycratic side of British life, from the pub to the junk shop, together with the people that go with it, in order to feel like a free thinker. I have a feeling we may be enjoying the last of it, though.
659.
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When, for whatever complex politically inspired reasons, this industrially based country abandons the education of its children to the point where mathematics and basic engineering principles can no longer be properly taught, the writing is on the wall. The development of "politically correct" procedures, and the emergence of "health & safety" and mindless procedural "training" as (perhaps our only) growth industries simply seals our fate.
As I was getting to the end of my first degree in engineering, I was thinking the same thing. There were no jobs at all going in the UK, even though I worked hard and had good grades. Whenever I'd meet people for the first time and I told them I was studying engineering, the response would always be similar: "Oooh, engineering, not many jobs in that nowadays is there? By the way can you fix my toilet?" I think this poor perception is atleast part of the problem and why young people arent interested in it as a career.
Over here in the US, the situation is quite different. Men hope their daughters get married to a doctor, scientist or engineer! Can you imagine someone saying that in Britain?
I'm not saying its paradise here. There are a lot of good things about the UK which none of us realize when we live there. However, the career prospects in engineering are not one of them.
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Over here in the US, the situation is quite different. Men hope their daughters get married to a doctor, scientist or engineer!
And it's the same in Germany. For some reason qualified engineers in the UK just don't seem to be accorded the same status of being "professionals" in the same way as doctors, dentists, solicitors, teachers etc do.
On a slightly different note, the very people who are union-bashers in this country look up to the likes of doctors, dentists, teachers, solicitors, police etc and yet these professions have the strongest and most militant unions of any. The only thing is they call them "associations" not "unions". Perhaps engineering unions should call themselves associations in order to raise the status of the profession.
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L\'escargot.
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And it's the same in Germany. For some reason qualified engineers in the UK just don't seem to be accorded the same status of being "professionals" in the same way as doctors, dentists, solicitors, teachers etc do.
This is perhaps because in the UK the term 'engineer' is used rather loosely. In a number of countries, people do not call someone an engineer, unless they have an engineering degree from a University or has the equivalent of 'chartered' status. Here anyone who holds a spanner/screw driver/pliers are called 'engineer'. No wonder the staus is low.
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> This is perhaps because in the UK the term 'engineer' isused rather loosely. In a number of countries, people do not call someone an engineer, unless they have an engineering degree from a University or has the equivalent of 'chartered' status. Here anyone who holds a spanner/screw driver/pliers are called 'engineer'. No wonder the staus is low.
I agree, I an a 'real' engineer who no longer does an engineering job for the reasons under discussion. However I still think other non-degreed forms of engineering should get more recognition. In Germany if you take your car to a garage, it might still be expensive, but mechanics seem to have a real pride in their work, and as such are afforded respect in their organisation and by the public. In the UK we look upon people who fix things as geezers who we dont realy want to see unless we have to, and are poorly respected/paid by their companies.
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Its difficult to disagree with most of the above posts.
When I'm Germany I'm often amazed at how many British designers and engineers I meet. There are several depts at BMW's FIZ (research and innovation centre) where about half the staff are British! Most go with the intention of stopping a year or so, but end up staying for good.
I don't think H&S regulations etc have got much to do with Britain's industrial decline. Much the same regulations are implemented in Germany and, believe me, the German authorities are every bit as keen as enforcing the rules and regs as the British!
One thing I do notice is that there seem to be far fewer 'non value adding' professionals in Germany. I have heard it quoted that there are 1/10 the number of accountants in Germany than there are in England - and I can quite believe it. We seem to have a culture that 'makes work' for accountants, solicitors etc etc - all 'parasitic' professions that rely on others to create wealth and then just skim a proportion of it off. Most of these professions are also 'closed shops' that restrict supply of qualified staff in order to maintain high incomes for themselves.
Similarly our post-compulsory education system is in a mess. Engineering and science teaching staff in FE and HE institutions are paid very poorly and consequently much of the teaching is done by 'cheaper' labour - often immigrants or people who are less well qualified than they should be.
A lot of British people want to 'get rich quick' with minimal effort. Witness the vast number of programmes on TV about how to tart up a house and then sell it for a profit of £20k. Why bother to study a difficult subject and work hard when your mate can buy and sell a few houses, call himself a 'property developer' and make more money than you can? I have a nasty feeling its all going to go pear-shaped sometime in the next couple of years.
As to living in Germany - well I find it very easy to adjust! It is not such a regimented society as is made out in the UK. There are more 'social' rules and regs (e.g. control on making noises late at night, putting rubbish bags out for collection etc) but overall it is quite a 'liberal' society and its very rare to see the kind of 'street agression' that is common of an evening in many British cities. And certainly in the cities I'm familiar with (mainly in the West) there doesn't seem to be the kind of 'yob culture' that is endemic in the UK.
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you take your car to a garage, it might still be expensive, but mechanics seem to have a real pride in their work, and as such are afforded respect in their organisation and by the public. In the UK we look upon people who fix things as geezers who we dont realy want to see unless we have to, and are poorly respected/paid by their companies.
Very true. Not only are most car repairers in Germany a fair bit cheaper than in the UK, but I've noticed that they all tend to keep the workshop very clean. All the young mechanics are likely to be on some kind of day-release at the local 'Ausbildungsinstitut' (training college) which are superbly maintained with the latest kit available to learn on - not the clapped out 1980's stuff you see at UK FE colleges. At my local FE college the few lads that attend seem to be learning about engine management from an old SPI Volvo 440 and a Cavalier!
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However I stillthink other non-degreed forms of engineering should get more recognition.
No doubt, non-degreed TECHNICIANS deserve recognition as well. Theirs' is also a highly skilled and difficult job, and they deserve credit for this.
However, their should be a distinction between someone who has gone to a university to study for an engineering degree and someone who has served an apprenticeship to become a heating "engineer". I like the US convention where such folks are referred to as technicians and an engineer is always someone with a degree.
We wouldn't refer to someone who moulds dentures as a dentist. Nor would we call a physiotherapist a doctor. This isn't much different.
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I think that one of the main issues for Peugeot is that there is very little going for the current range, the 206 is perceived as an old model now, the 407 styling tries too hard and for me and just does not work and the 307 has not been helped by the adoption of the 407 style front, I saw a facelift 307CC yesterday and it looked simply awful, I would be embarrassed to drive one. They have the technology to compete though have lost on the design and marketing front compared to Renault, Ford, VW, Toyota etc.
Oh how the mighty have fallen, remember the late 80's when the 205 was so desirable and the 405 so advanced.
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Point of irony, has anyone seen that advert by Citroen about the Picasso "Britains favourite MPV"? I saw it a day or so after the announcement.
It nearly passed me by but Peugeot and Citroen are owned by the same people.
The plant will be loosing 2700?? people over 14 months in two stages. Yes that's a lot of people looking for jobs but a two stage release eases the flood on the job market.
As Tyre Expert has said, another closure of a car plant in such a short spac of time is not good news. However, are we now seeing an industry that is finally recognising that has too much production capacity?
I don't feel it has much to do with the UK not beeing in the Euro. I honestly feel that there is a lot in what the CEO said about logistics etc. Having also worked in the automotive insdustry and other high volume manufacturers I can see the problems associated with having the channel between us. Not something we can do much about.
H
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Just heard on the radio (I'll caveat that by saying it was Radio 1 and sometimes the Sun is in depth compared to Radio 1's news output) that the local council's idea for the factory site is a casino. And it's alright everyone, all 2000 odd of you, we know that you're skilled workers, but you can retrain to work at the casino.
So that's alright then.
Quite relevant given Aprilia's and other comments on the respect accorded (or not) to skilled workers in this country.
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Just heard on the radio (I'll caveat that by saying it was Radio 1 and sometimes the Sun is in depth compared to Radio 1's news output) that the local council's idea for the factory site is a casino. And it's alright everyone, all 2000 odd of you, we know that you're skilled workers, but you can retrain to work at the casino. So that's alright then.
Very unlikely that they'll want ex-car workers to work in a casino. In fact its unlikely casino owners will even want natives - they'll bring in East Europeans who can be paid less and effectively have no employment rights.
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