It seems that major car radio manufacturers like Kenwood & Clarion are pulling out of the digital market, because of poor signal/clarity problems and returning to analogue.!!!!
www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/65920/digital_radios_a_...l
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Apologies it seems that Clarion have not yet thrown in the towel.!!!!
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Digital radio via the internet and digital TV boxes has knocked DAB home radio sales.
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Personally I think the digital tide is on the ebb...ask yourself why Bush electronics are selling record decks as if they were hot-cakes. Just rewired my old Technics deck to my digital office stereo (via a pre-amp). The HiFi thinks its a MD Player but the sound is far mellower than any iPOD MD etc.
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It seems that major car radio manufacturers like Kenwood & Clarion are pulling out of the digital market, because of poor signal/clarity problems and returning to analogue.!!!! www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/65920/digital_radios_a_...l
>>
Not surprised.
Our Teac digital radio is poor enough sat in the kitchen - I dread to think how it would fair out on the open road. We get loss of signal, poor reception, uneven sound quality, etc. When it's working properly, I can't tell the difference between DAB and FM. All you get is a few more channels, but as TV shows, quantity does not lead to quality.
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If you really want the truth about DAB read these links (actually Freeview's radio transmissions are superior in most cases):
tinyurl.com/ctygk
www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/
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This is a right cock up.
If anything was tailor made for car audio it was DAB radio. All the features and information you could ever need in mobile radio.
All gone to pot!
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I've got a DAB receiver in the house, but the antenna (which is large) is mounted on the chimney stack and aligned with the transmitter 16 miles away. Perfect reception, no FM hiss/crackle.
FM will work in areas of poor reception where digital gives up, but digital sound quality should be better FM if the reception is OK. For example I could receive London FM stations in South Oxon using an indoor aerial, but only on FM mono. Using digital I can't get a decent signal from another transmitter about 35 miles away.
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So why is the Government pushing us all to Digital if it's patchy?
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Do what I did - go broadband, network your house and get a WiFI radio (AE) no need to fiddle with Digital sensitivities. Brill. Oh and a "radio" made by audiphiles means you get a lovely sound.
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I shall park my car outside your palace then PU.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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More than welcome RF. the 535 has a DAB radio as well. Never use it.
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Because they want the frequency spectrum currently used by analogue tv and radio for other things. They use lots of bandwidth - many many times more than digital equivalents.
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Not disagreeing, but it is not that "they want the frequency bandwith .. for other things" but more correctly ""they want TO SELL the frequency bandwith .. for other things"
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Not disagreeing, but it is not that "they want the frequency bandwith .. for other things" but more correctly ""they want TO SELL the frequency bandwith .. for other things"
Not quite true. The digital terrestrial television broadcasts at similar frequencies to analogue TV (UHF channels 21-69), however more programme streams can be broadcast because of the way digital TV can multiplex several programmes into one RF channel. The frequency spectrum will still be used for TV. Digital is much more efficient of the bandwidth used (hence more programmes) and PPV, EPG's etc can easily be implemented. Also we need digital for HD broadcasting.
DAB (in the UK) is broadcast around 220MHz, whereas FM radio is 88-108MHz. There are no plans to turn off FM and when they eventually do I will probably be well past caring.
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I've never had "FM hiss or crackle": sounds like salesmans patter for DAB! However, I do have an external aerial aimed at an FM transmitter, which is what is needed if you want to use reasonably good equipment - Quad FM4 etc.
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I acknowledge that we're veering wildly off topic but here goes ...
I've got a Denon D35 DAB microsystem in the kitchen and I'm about to have a DAB aerial installed on the roof so I can receive DAB stations - is this a waste of time at the moment ?
The small DAB radio I've got sat out in the utility room (reception's only possible on FM at the back of the house) is useless on DAB so will a real outdoor aerial make any difference?
I'm kind of hoping that the guy who's comig to fit it would have told me if I was wasting my time.
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Soupytwist !
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The aerial fitter will/should test the aerial in situ and get a signal strength reading, and not leave until he gets an acceptable reading.
I installed my own aerial when the chimney was rebuilt (nice scaffolding tower, no messing on a ladder) and simply aligned it using a compass, having taken a bearing on the transmitter tower off the map (used to be a Boy Scout).
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Soupy,
I bought a DAB tuner, Puredigital, and feed it through a Cyrus amp and Dynaudio speakers. It sounds great, when the bit rate is sensible, shows almost maximum signal strength and pulls in good FM too. The aerial is a cheapo dipole up in the loft and I'm a l o n g way from thr transmitter. I'd try that before you attach something big and expensive to the outside.
JH
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Soupytwist-to answer your first question-it depends if you want to hear the channels available.Many of these can be heard online anyway.Incidentally I heard(on BBC7)that DVDs of 'A Bit of Fry and Laurie'will be released on Monday-at last.
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As you're all no doubt on the edge of your various seats, here's what happened when the aerial man came earlier this week.
The kitchen radio now benefits from DAB and FM aerials on the roof (he was up there anyway putting up a new digital TV aerial) and the DAB reception has so far been excellent as has the FM - BBC Radio Suffolk crystal clear in North Essex for those all important Ipswich Town commentaries. The FM sound is better but to be honest we'll probably have digital on most of the time as it has both the music stations my wife & I like and Radio 5 (which she hates) without having to switch bands.
Good digital Tv signal as well although still not enough for the Wharfedale integrated 17 inch telly we had in the kitchen so that's gone back to be replaced by a standalone telly and Freeview box.
All I need to do now is buy a Freeview box with hard drive recorder for the lounge and we'll be sorted.
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Soupytwist !
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>>putting up a new digital TV aerial>>
You presumbly mean a wideband aerial rather than the original narrowband types...:-)
Calling them "digital TV aerials" is a marketing ploy.
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An aerial which improves our reception of digital TV channels, yes.
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Soupytwist !
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>>An aerial which improves our reception of digital TV channels, yes.>>
Mine was fitted six or seven years ago...:-)
The narrowband type didn't always bring in the middle numbers channels on the original ON/ITVDigital transmissions, hence the requirement for a wideband aerial.
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>>putting up a new digital TV aerial>> You presumbly mean a wideband aerial rather than the original narrowband types...:-) Calling them "digital TV aerials" is a marketing ploy.
Digital seems much less of a mouthful than Wideband/High Gain, and has more chance of being understood by Joe Punter. There's a jobby on my roof that would not look out of place up the road at Rugby Radio; hope it's not just a ploy.
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More inmportant than wide band (correct band group is better) is Highly directional. Digital does not like other stuff on the airways.
Mine is highly directional and is pointed directly at the transmitter, and ignores the carp thrown out by the main national grid feed to south and west london. (which is between me and the transmitter)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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>>Mine is highly directional and is pointed directly at the transmitter>>
I'm fortunate that if I walk about three-quarters-of-a-mile to open countryside I can see the transmitter about 15 miles away.
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I'd long suspected the Stuartli could see Winter Hill from the his chimney pot - here in Northants the transmitter aerial is just the horizon
Correct band/group would be great but Sandy Heath has most digital mux on channels in the 40's but one on 68 and analogue channels in group A.
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I'd long suspected the Stuartli could see Winter Hill from the his chimney pot>>
Never been anywhere near my chimney pots...:-)
In actual fact ON/ITVDigital and, in some cases Freeview, transmissions can prove to be easily obtainable on one section or side of a road and almost non-existant on the other in certain parts of my town.
In fact my best mate, who runs an independent audio/visual/appliances retail outlet, used to sell ON/ITVDigital boxes on the understanding that if any buyers had reception problems he would immediately provide refunds.
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>>More inmportant than wide band (correct band group is better)
The trouble is there is no guarantee that the cuurent frequency plan for DVB-T will stay the same during analogue closedown, so a wideband antenna is a better each way bet.
Agree about using high directivity though. 30 quid Freeview boxes from Tesco / Dixons (sorry 'Currys.digital') seem prone to all sorts of radiated / conducted emissions.
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1) The sound quality is in general compromised by the use of low bitrates in order to squeeze more stations onto each multiplex ; this is the same "quality versus cost" issue that can cause artifacts or picture defects on digital TV broadcasts.
2) I wouldn't say DAB was well suited for cars; we should have a satellite based system like XM Radio and Sirius in the USA - which is very well suited for this purpose.
(Google either if you want to know more about these).
Chris Muriel, Manchester
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well said g3zdm the sound "is" compressed and not up to the standard of a good fm setup which in itself is not perfect which is not as good as cd"s which is not as good as reel to reel which is not as good as vinyl which is not as good as being at the concert
car content? anyone remember 8 tracks in cars?superb sound quality .
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\"a little man in a big world/\"
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DAB sucks, firstly because the bitrates are appallingly low, secondly because coverage is patchy to minimal, and the radios don't work well inside, and thirdly because there's no graceful drop-out like FM, it's either all or nothing and that means that for the most part Terry Wogan sounds like he's gargling his way through the program.
Absolute waste of money. We're better off refining the RDS standard to transmit more info and sticking to FM.
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>>compromised by the use of low bitrates>>
That is precisely the point made in the first link I gave earlier (it lists the bit rates used by various stations); some even broadcast in mono...:-)
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In no way does DAB (in the UK at least, and I doubt anywhere else) sound anywhere near as good as FM.
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Except that you're wrong: it sounds much better than FM. I've had it in my van for two years now, and my Pioneer reverts to FM very occasionally if DAB signal isn't available but equivalent FM is. What better way to compare the two?
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Not wrong at all. If you can't hear the artifacts due to over-compression on DAB or notice the artificial, grating sound, it's because you are in a van - hardly the best listening environment is it? Sounds much better than FM? Ha!
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We have to agree to differ it seems. I think both FM and DAB have their pros & cons. One of FM's is the *relatively* poor reception when on the move compared to DAB in my experience. As I said before, the DAB seems much clearer when switching between the two. I prefer that DAB cuts out all together if the signal isn't strong enough. A van doesn't constitute the best listening environment, it's true, but given the amount of time I spend in it, it is an environment which benefits greatly from having a decent radio.
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Maybe they made the FM sound rubbish on purpose, I mean, if they released a radio which when fallsback in an emergency to the old technology and sounded better, what do you think the customer would do or say? ;o)
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Not so, my DAB is no better than my FM and a least you can find the station you want with one press of a button. I removed the DAB radio and unless things improve it will be staying out.
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Barry Fox wrote an article in EPE a few months ago about DVB television, and mentioned that digital transmitters were only a fraction as powerful as analog transmitters so as to not interfere with the analog channels. This causes poor reception which would be 'fixed' when the analog is turned off and they can crank up the power. I wonder if the same is true of DAB?
Vinyl is a superior format to CD. In the car, MiniDisc rules!
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Mike Farrow
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In this thread (Hi Fi World) there is a good explanation of the UK/DAB drawbacks, and some ways of getting the good digital tranmissions out there...www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/email1.html
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UK uses Band III (around 220MHz) so no conflict with analogue radio. More transmitters are being built to improve reception.
I have a Matsui stereo DAB receiver in my office (cheapy off eBay for £23 inc. post) and it works great. Good reception of local and national channels.
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I have had four DAB radios (I must be mad). They were all terrible - reception everywhere tried was very unreliable, prone to bubbling / squeaking and breakup, sometimes no reception at all when high pressure conditions would wipe out several multiplexes at a time for a day or more. The quality of all the sets was sub-standard - cheap and nasty. And the over-compressed audio had to be heard to be believed - awful - couldn't listen to it for more than a few minutes, not that the increased choice (identikit pop stations) did much for me anyway... I eBayed them all and went back to FM. (Try a Tivoli Model One if you want a good radio). But even AM is preferable as at least it gives solid reception.
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I have had four DAB radios (I must be mad). They were all terrible - reception everywhere tried was very unreliable, prone to bubbling / squeaking and breakup, sometimes no reception at all when high pressure conditions would wipe out several multiplexes at a time for a day or more. The quality of all the sets was sub-standard - cheap and nasty. And the over-compressed audio had to be heard to be believed - awful - couldn't listen to it for more than a few minutes, not that the increased choice (identikit pop stations) did much for me anyway... I eBayed them all and went back to FM. (Try a Tivoli Model One if you want a good radio). But even AM is preferable as at least it gives solid reception.
Where've you put your new FM receiver then? Next to the phonograph and your collection of 78's - LOL!
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Where've you put your new FM receiver then? Next to the phonograph and your collection of 78's - LOL!
Not quite, I'm only in my 30s ;) But yes, I must be old fashioned - I do prefer my radios to actually work and sound good.
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I have a Panasonic RF-D1 in my study which is great on reception. The extra channels are very worthwhile as is BBC world service with proper reception. I do find the 1-2 second gap in switching stations annoying compared to analogue. Crazy I know as what is 1 second delay in this busy world, but it does seem retrospective.
Does anyone have DAB car experience? A year or so ago I toyed with a DAB Blauplunk. Autocar now suggest a nice JVC unit. In the end I went Sony conventional FM, but did I miss out on DAB in the car?
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I wouldn't support DAB, as I believe their long-term goal is to get the technology in place and then charge on a subscription basis for DAB2 or something.
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Don't waste your money! An FM radio is OK for any car
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The problem I'm finding with any digital transmission is if it's not spot on you get nothing. On Saturday morning the weather was awful and as a result my analogue BBC 1 on the bedroom TV was very snowy, but still watchable (it was only the News) and sound was perfect - all other channels no probs. Switching to the freeview box resulted in a blue screen/blocky and frozen picure which was totally unwatchable - radio channels wouldn't work either. At present my cable service seems to be the only one which gives excellent reliability - obviously due to systems and people in place employed to maintain good output.
If this isn't sorted by 2008 when the switch off begins TVs may as well be thrown out.
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Digital terrestrial tv transmissions are currently 'interleaved' with analogue transmission and broadcast at reduced power to avoid interference problems. When analogue switches off the digital power will be boosted.
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My Goodmans CD/DAB, standard aerial bluetacked to the wall, in my kitchen has no reception issues unless I use my laptop near it. But then I'm prob in a good reception area. Sounds OK to me even when I had the standard speakers-even better with old wharfedale diamonds wall-mounted.
Superb link to hi-fi world-thank you. I think I might well be investigating splitting my cable input to this DAB radio.
Mind you, if I did have a really high end anolgue job I would in a flash hook it up to a roof aerial.
So far as the car goes anolgues fine by me.
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www.bayingbasset.com
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This link may prove of interest about FM transmissions:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation
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I personally thought that DAB was a way of getting around poor AM reception in a car. I have yet to own any car with great AM reception.
I am sad, I enjoy radio 5, and talk sport, but I wish they were on FM. Therefore, surely DAB is the only answer?
Don't care about FM, as car recpetion is perfectly fine anyway!
But, saturday sports report would be great without awful AM fade in and out. Any cures for rubbish AM reception in a car?
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Radio 5 Live appears to be broadcast at night on local BBc radio FM stations - I get several stations broadcasting it whilst listening in bed.
There's more than one station on AM for Radio 5 Live although, in fact, during the day the station is very clear when listening to it in my car.
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>> There's more than one station on AM for Radio 5 Live although, in fact, during the day the station is very clear when listening to it in my car.
693 and 909, great in some areas though poor in others, for instance on the M5 below Wellington then all the way on the A30 towards Bodmin, keep having to switch between frequencies, hard to get any kind of decent reception.
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Radio 5 live is - as dairylea says, broacast on 909 and 693.
Draw a line that tranverse the country from say scarborough on the east coast to southampton on the south coast.
East and south of that line is 909, north and west of that line is 693.
(except at night where due to atmospherics its pot luck. on the west coast of france you will get 909 between 21:00 and 23:00 at night in the summer.)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Radio 5 live is - as dairylea says, broacast on 909 and 693. Draw a line that tranverse the country from say scarborough on the east coast to southampton on the south coast. East and south of that line is 909, north and west of that line is 693. (except at night where due to atmospherics its pot luck. on the west coast of france you will get 909 between 21:00 and 23:00 at night in the summer.) ------------------------------ TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Should it be the other way round? I live in the North-West and get it much better on 909. 693 is abysmal.
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Draw a line that tranverse the country from say scarborough on the east coast to southampton on the south coast. East and south of that line is 909, north and west of that line is 693.
Hey Hal, Bristol Cardiff etc all better on 909, it is true though that as you travel west from London you need to switch to 693 around Membury though once iro Bristol then 909 is better.
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Ok so it varies.....
Barrow 693 1kW SD218707
Bexhill 693 1kW TQ744080
Brighton 693 1kW TQ234051
Burghead 693 25kW NJ125685
Droitwich 693 150kW SO929663
Enniskillen 693 1kW H232457
Folkestone 693 1kW TR255389
Postwick 693 10kW TG303086
Redmoss 693 1kW NJ942024
Stagshaw 693 50kW NY986709
Start Point 693 50kW SX814378
Bournemouth 909 0.25kW SZ070926
Brookmans Park 909 150kW TL259050
Clevedon 909 50kW ST400697
Exeter 909 1kW SX931881
Fareham 909 1kW SU546058
Lisnagarvey 909 10kW J258619
Londonderry 909 1kW C404176
Moorside Edge 909 200kW SE070154
Redruth MF 909 2kW SW709403
Tywyn 990 1kW SH581004
Westerglen 909 50kW NS868773
Whitehaven 909 1kW NX974172
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The joker in TVM's pack is Droitwich. It's situated pretty close to the Scarboro'/S'oton line and at 150kw ERP it's service area is, to say the least, extensive. I've been able to listen to "Up All Night" while camping near Nant in the Cevennes region of France.
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Its done so that they have a big burner in the south, a big burner of a different frequency in the midlands and a big burner in the north same frequency as the south. Dead spots that dont get the nearest big burner get filled in by a smallish one of the other frequency.
The rule is you cant have transmitters of the same frequency near each other (you get funny effects by the matching frequencies)
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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"When analogue switches off the digital power will be boosted."
This is going to be interesting. Will all the people who currently can't get digital TV be given a digibox to use on the day, or will we all have to go and buy one as an act of faith?
Or I could just cancel my TV licence...
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There are new stations such as Planet Rock that only broadcast on DAB and which offer good music. I suspect that DAB allows for more stations and hence more choice. In other words it uses bandwidth more efficiently. But given a choice I would opt for analogue because the bit rates of DAB broadcasts are too low for decent sound. And anyway, IMO most radio presenters are inane egotists and only R4 has presenters who can express themselves in a non-inane manner. Contentious ...
Leif
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I suspect that DAB allows for more stations and hence more choice.>>
Quite true.
But given a choice I would opt for analogue because the bit rates of DAB broadcasts are too low for decent sound.>>
Even more true.
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RDS FM rules-both car and portable and offers most of what DAB claims as advantages-station ident. and clarity-does DAB switch transmitters as you move around the country?.There have been reports recently of the BBC reducing the quality of DAB transmissions to squeeze in more stations.
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I am usually an early adopter of most technologies but have drawn the line at DAB radios. Initially, they were too expensive, heavy and power hungry for battery use. Now they are cheaper etc. etc. but as I have an FM radio in every room in the house (except those small rooms!!) I now cannot be bothered with them.
From my point of view I wouldn't gain much by having one as most of the additional stations don't interest me. I originally thought that I wanted one in order to listen to BBC7 but since having got a TV DTT box, I can now get that station on Freeview.
Yes. I'll miss out on DAB I think, that is, until analogue radio is switched off.
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"Yes. I'll miss out on DAB I think, that is, until analogue radio is switched off."
Agree entirely, especially since broadband allows access to hundreds of Internet radio stations at no worse quality.
Having it only via the computer would be a drawback, but a wireless music player gets round that very nicely...
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>I have an FM radio in every room in the house (except those small rooms!!)
You are a mere amateur.
Recently bought a Roberts DAB radio and I'm very pleased with it. Audible Radio 5 is good, as is Radio 7. It also has lines in/out, so I can play mp3s (mostly speech podcasts) while in the kitchen. I wouldn't use it for classical music though as the sound isn't good enough.
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