If you don't 're-invent the wheel' occasionally, there is no progress. What's wrong with a bit of innovation? Without it, you wouldn't have many benefits that aren't 'necessary'. A few spring to mind :
multi-valves
ABS
ESP
VVT
PAS
.....and countless other TLAs
Auto transmission
As for unreliable Renault's, electronic parking brakes are only one symptom of poor design & manufacture.........
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Yes, but every single one of those gives a definable driver benefit. I've yet to hear anything that sounds like a benefit for these electronic parking brakes, they sound like a pain in the proverbial to me.
Of course I've not driven with one, so I might actually love it...
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In principle, I support electronic handbrakes - I'm sure the implementation of them will overcome their current deficiencies once sufficient development has been done.
The principle behind my support is that removing control from drivers, and giving it to computers is a good thing. Electronic handbrakes are just one step along the way towards driverless cars.
Controls for advance/retard and mixture strength back on the steering wheel hub anyone?
Number_Cruncher
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But its not progress.There is no improvement.its just changing a simple method to a more complicated one that is more unreliable.
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Electronic driverless cars? Who will the CPS prosecute when the electronics go haywire due to water ingress?
If a car has electronic key functions controlling brakes or throttle they must be 100% reliable all the time or fail safe.
Given the average main delear's inability to solve the more mundane everyday problems of ECUs/ computer controlled aircon etc, I supect practical reality is a long time away. (You can drive a hydrogen powered car now but it's not practical or economic reality)
Given that ABS starts to give problems due to corrosion on 6-7 year old cars, handbrake failure within 10 years seems like a no brainer...
(Luddites of the world unite: bring back leaf springs and starting handles)
madf
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>>But its not progress.
In the context of driving on Britain's roads today, I agree. Today, I wouldn't pay for an electronic handbrake - especially not if it's attached to a Renault!
But, in the context of an automatic, driverless car, it becomes an essential part of the technology. So, I see it as a move in the right direction.
Recently, we have seen automatic headlamps. It's not a huge leap to see indicators being linked to future satellite navigation systems. I'm sure there are many other ways to relieve the driver of control.
Is there any aspect of driving that computer systems couldn't deal with? By which I mean that it would be a logical impossibility for a computer to do, rather than the devices and software haven't been designed/produced yet.
IMO, the most unreliable part of a car (even a Renault!) is the dullard behind the steering wheel. Computers could do a far better job of driving, thus freeing us up to do something productive rather than menial.
Can most people brake better than computer controlled ABS?
Can most people make their car pull away better than traction control?
etc, etc,
Number_Cruncher
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Now who will run this computer controlled system? The Government? Don't make me laugh..
Real time control of vehicles on all roads.. To avoid random pedestrians? Hmm.. I can see lots of possibilities mainly of 5mph speed limits.
Sorry sir, in the intersts of safety we have imposed a blanket speed limit of 2mph. Health and Safety....
madf
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I can understand your concerns. It's all just a guess on my part of what motoring and electronic motoring technology might be like in the future.
For electronic driverless cars to work, the liability would have to shift from the driver/owner to the maker/maintainer of the vehicle. This would probably mean that vehicles would be only offered under leasing contracts to prevent people fiddling with the system.
I think you are right to point out that taking control from the driver isn't a trivial thing to do, and there will be bound to be teething troubles. But, during the 100 year development of the car as we know it now, how many lives have been lost? Teething troubles indeed!
Yes, dealing with random pedestrians is tricky. But, assuming that the vision systems were developed to enable a computer to recognise the hazard, I'm sure that a computer would respond faster and more appropriately than a human in most cases. If someone jumps out, for example, the computer could deploy something like external airbags as well as full braking to lessen the damage.
Then, most vehicle related crimes dissappear - you won't be able to speed. You won't be culpable in accidents, etc, because you wouldn't have been driving - indeed you could have been asleep or even drunk at the time!
I don't think the system would need to be run by the government, although it would rely on some infrastructure changes - the availability and reliability of accurate GPS, for example. Speaking of infrastructure, traffic lights, signs, and all of the expensive roadside paraphenalia would become obsolete.
City centre parking would cease to be a problem, because you could send your empty car away, and then summon it via the internet when you are ready for collection.
Real time control doesn't need to be effected by a government or central system - each vehicle just needs to manage its own "safety bubble" in the context of the surrounding vehicles and streetscape.
Road capacity would actually increase because you could get rid of the gap due to thinking time imediately, and with inter-vehicle communication probably erode some of the stopping distance gap too. If anything, I would see journey times falling. The shot of the traffic speeding through the junction on the current Zurich ad springs to mind as a possible scenario.
Sorry, I'm drifting somewhat away from electronic handbrakes, but how do you think the technology will develop from here?
Number_Cruncher
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I know we should engage neutral and apply the handbrake when stopped in traffic, but how many motorists do?
The main advantage I see to electronic parking brakes is that the brake is automatically applied when the car stops in traffic - decreasing the risk of it rolling back into the car behind when it moves off again.
So much for the theory - I'll leave the question of whether it actually works or not for those of you with new enough motors to actually have one fitted.
- Gromit
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If fitted to a French car, it's garranteed to self apply at 60mph, or not switch off at all leaving the car immobile - within 5 years of buying.
madf
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>Number cruncher.
Consider the fun of agreeing a common worldwide standard.. (otherwise not economically viable). US/Europe can't agree on mobile phones. If we can agree, then who will drive on the right? Answer? us..
madf
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I think the only thing that needs global coverage is the GPS. No problem there.
In the same way that the car would be able to pick the right speed limit by knowing its position from GPS, it could also pick other rules of the road, like, for example which side of the road to drive on.
I think acronym man [RF -> TVM -> what next? ;-) ] is right when he says the technology is already here. I think just about all the ingredients are there, waiting to be put together.
The stumbling block, I think, is the issue of liability - manufacturers don't want any more of it!
Number_Cruncher
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"The stumbling block, I think, is the issue of liability - manufacturers don't want any more of it!"
However, the insurance companies could change all this. If a car has a fully-functioning auto-pilot (not far off now, the Accord and Vectra have/will have systems close to this) and *you* as the driver cause a crash that the car could have avoided, then the insurer may refuse to pay out. This is the same kind of basis as owning a car with ABS (or other safety system), de-activating it and then driving into the back of someone. No way would an insurance company pay up in those circumstances, same goes for computer controlled assistance. First, in brakes and steering and then in complete driving control.
That doesn't sort out liablity for when the systems go wrong, but it will effectively outlaw self-driving.
Whether you see that as a good or bad thing is quite another matter.
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The technology exists now to fully automate and remove the driver. The technology exists for the same car to travel at 70mph on the motorway inches away from the others all automatically
All thats missing is the will, and the money.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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The days when the driver has any control over more than his intended destination are numbered. At some point in the future people will look back on vehicles that had to be controlled by a human occupant as amusing and highly dangerous.
There will be no need for any computer system to be a government controlled one. GPS navigation systems are already old hat, and the in car technology will be down to the motor manufacturers to develop. All the government will have to do is decide at what speed we can travel and whether we can even use our cars at certain designated times.
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Ok
electromechanical handbrake.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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opps - Its not a handbrake any more either.
electromechanical parking brake
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Anyway to get back to the original subject of "electronic" handbrakes. I have one on my Scenic which Ihave had now for almost 2 years.
I think it is a great thing to have, yes I can live without it but I can also live without elec windows etc etc.
So whats good about it? When I start my car and release the clutch to biting point, handbrake automatically releases. For my wife in particular, this is good because in my last Scenic, she had to stoop down slightly to reach the handbrake.
Along the road from me is traffic lights on a hill. I pull up at that and manually pull a small lever on my dashboard and handbrake comes on. When lights change, I lift the clutch and handbrake releases automatically and I get a smooth take off.
What doesn't seem to have been mentioned anywhere on this thread is that you can manually apply and release the handbrake if you so wish, maybe doing a tight manoeuvre on a hill for instance.
So in my eyes, all to gain an nothing to lose.
I am sure on the first ever page on this forum there was probably a thread about elec windows or remote controls for radios or whatever that we now just take for granted!!
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So whats good about it? When I start my car and release the clutch to biting point, handbrake automatically releases. For my wife in particular, this is good because in my last Scenic, she had to stoop down slightly to reach the handbrake. Along the road from me is traffic lights on a hill. I pull up at that and manually pull a small lever on my dashboard and handbrake comes on. When lights change, I lift the clutch and handbrake releases automatically and I get a smooth take off.
There were designs 50 years ago that could do this (mechanically). More recently Subaru have used mechanical handbrakes with this kind of 'hill start' facility. Its actually pretty simple to implement.
I'm all in favour of technology when it genuinely adds something. I'm unconvinced by electronic handbrakes and reports of them working for a year without going wrong don't do a lot to increase my confidence. Electronic components are generally pretty reliable. Electromechanical components (i.e. electrical bits that move) are generally not very reliable, especially when subject to a harsh environment.
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I have driven many rental cars in mainland Europe with these new ?Electronic? parking brakes, (VW, Audi, Renault are the main ones). I think they are all rubbish on manual shift cars as it makes hill starting etc. very difficult. They are probably OK on an Automatic car.
The Renaults are the worst offenders. As soon as you turn the engine off the brake comes on automatically. The VW/Audis are better in that they do not come on automatically. With the VAG cars I just park in gear with the handbrake off in case they stick, (very worried about the cold in Germany in January when it was -25C).
I still prefer the ?standard? type and might not choose a car because it has an ?Electronic? brake!
Q
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I stand by my comment in earlier post in this thread, and that's after reading all the posts..
>>Electronic parking brakes are IMO the best innovation of recent years.>>
Something to add too, 'don't knock it 'till you try it'
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I stand by my comment in earlier post in this thread, and that's after reading all the posts.. >>Electronic parking brakes are IMO the best innovation of recent years.>> Something to add too, 'don't knock it 'till you try it'
Well, I've tried 'em.....
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The technology exists now to fully automate and remove the driver.The technology exists for the same car to travel at 70mph on the motorway inches away from the others all automatically
Might as well travel by train.
So Mr and Mrs Fat Cat sit in the sauna while their S1000L sorts out the rest though how does Joe Bloggs in his '85 Cavalier fit in to this 70mph train only inches apart? Yes I know Mr Rep in the 3 Series does it anyway ;-)
All thats missing is the will, and the money.
To the contray thank heavens that we have some free will we are still able to decide where, when, how, what in and at what speed we want to travel.
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Agree.I've tried them as well.They are rubbish.Obviously some designer had nothing better to do.
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Agree.I've tried them as well.They are rubbish.Obviously some designer had nothing better to do.
In what way were they "rubbish"?
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Just hijacking this thread just now. Re the elctric parking brakes, how are these checked on MOT?
IIRC, the last time I saw the Saxo being MOTd, the tester put handbrake on and tried to drive away to make sure it held. But if he did this in the Scenic, the handbrake would just release?
Or was I not watching properly, was it the "rolling road" that tested the hanbrake?
Sorry, just curious!
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